the secret to recoil control?

[Arc Angel]

Ever see a really great shooter have a light strike or some other type of malfunction that results in a "click" and not a "bang"?

The gun dips.

That's not because that person is flinching-- you know so because... they never miss! The gun dips because we don't REALLY just "let" the gun return from recoil; we are driving it back down onto the target, as Brian describes it in his book. (That said, the feeling should be that of "willing" or "letting" the gun return, as if you're TRYING to drive the gun, you WILL flinch.)

The difference between driving the gun down and flinching is "timing." (And yes, breaking the shot as soon as you can guarantee the next hit goes into that as well-- though for the purpose of this discussion, it's probably better that we focus on the first part of the process.)

Now just a side note-- as your target gets smaller (either further away or more tight), at least in my own experience, things tend to change-- and if you're driving the gun down as you would on say a 7-or-fewer-yard target, you'll wind up with some bad hits. It's a totally different feeling, for me, on those targets-- though I know that I'm still timing the gun out, it's less work on my end and more precise/relaxed as a result. (That probably won't make sense unless you've experienced it for yourself.)

My compliments - Really!

Coincidentally, I was thinking about this just last weekend when I was shooting very well, experienced a misfire during a string of shots and, sure enough, the muzzle suddenly took a mysterious dip! Before I read this thread I had already come to the conclusion that the dip was caused by me, 'driving' the gun; but I wasn't really 100% certain until I read this thread - Thanks!

[IHAVEGAS]

You are missing the point. Do you think that Jerry, Bob or any other shooter with exceptional grip strength were magically gifted with it? No. They all earned it with a crap ton of focused work to improve their grip strength.

This is no different than any other physical sport. Do you think professional athletes excel at in their sports by NOT working out and maximizing the strength of key muscle groups?

Grip strength has the largest effect on recoil control if your grip technique is already good. People can dance around that fact all they want. It is simple physics.

Got it. What I was reading (wrongly) into this thread is that anybody can achieve good control by applying good technique. Not that greater than normal strength was also a requirement.

I need to research a bit on the most effective exercise for the key muscle groups, a lot of grip squeezers are sold but I think that something with free weights is what I need to be able to better lock the wrists. On vids that seems to be the difference between where I am (average to good) and where I would like to be (very good to excellent) on recoil control, the wrists flex.

[tha1000]

define "normal" strength.

I think technique does play a huge role in it. I am stronger than most people, grip included, but I know a lot of little guys that do a better job of managing recoil than I do. I think @gunbugbit was correct when he said the ability to obtain a proper grip on every draw is a big part of it, I'm not at that point yet.

[IHAVEGAS]

Now just a side note-- as your target gets smaller (either further away or more tight), at least in my own experience, things tend to change-- and if you're driving the gun down as you would on say a 7-or-fewer-yard target, you'll wind up with some bad hits. It's a totally different feeling, for me, on those targets-- though I know that I'm still timing the gun out, it's less work on my end and more precise/relaxed as a result. (That probably won't make sense unless you've experienced it for yourself.)

My compliments - Really!

Coincidentally, I was thinking about this just last weekend when I was shooting very well, experienced a misfire during a string of shots and, sure enough, the muzzle suddenly took a mysterious dip! Before I read this thread I had already come to the conclusion that the dip was caused by me, 'driving' the gun; but I wasn't really 100% certain until I read this thread - Thanks!

It would be interesting to get more input on this one too. My opinion is that timing the gun is common but not ideal. The misses (low) as more precision is required at distance or perhaps just because of a small target area seem to come from changing how you let off the shot (slower) and your internal timing being geared for a different time.

[IHAVEGAS]

"I think technique does play a huge role in it. I am stronger than most people, grip included, but I know a lot of little guys that do a better job of managing recoil than I do. I think @gunbugbit was correct when he said the ability to obtain a proper grip on every draw is a big part of it, I'm not at that point yet."

No debate. My only thought is that technique is one big part and strength is another big part.

[GunBugBit]

I'll put my money on a smaller/weaker person with excellent technique over a bigger/stronger person with bad technique.

[Miranda]

a long time ago a fellow named Lou said to me what you want is a well behaved gun

and that will help you go faster.

I think I said something eloquent like 'whaa?'

and he went on, that you want your pistol to do the same thing every time

the cases all land near each other when you shoot at the same target

and the recoil feels the same.

after a bit of thought on what he said I realized that you have to do your part.

A repeatable grip is involved and a certain steadiness of aim.

until someone invents an effective recoilless hand mount pistol

this competition is all about how quickly you can get back on target after

you break a shot..... ok foot work and draw speed will be involved too...

shoot, hold on, aim, shoot.

sure sounds easy.

miranda

[Wesquire]

a long time ago a fellow named Lou said to me what you want is a well behaved gun

and that will help you go faster.

I think I said something eloquent like 'whaa?'

and he went on, that you want your pistol to do the same thing every time

the cases all land near each other when you shoot at the same target

and the recoil feels the same.

after a bit of thought on what he said I realized that you have to do your part.

A repeatable grip is involved and a certain steadiness of aim.

until someone invents an effective recoilless hand mount pistol

this competition is all about how quickly you can get back on target after

you break a shot..... ok foot work and draw speed will be involved too...

shoot, hold on, aim, shoot.

sure sounds easy.

miranda

I'd say transitions are more important still. The top GM's can put up better live fire times than many GM's can do in dry fire with zero recoil. There's a reason for that.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Wesquire

[PatJones]

No such thing as free lunch. Listen to Cha-Lee.

[IHAVEGAS]

I'll put my money on a smaller/weaker person with excellent technique over a bigger/stronger person with bad technique.

If you are saying that one group might be 50-60% of the way there and the other might be 60-70% of the way there (to pick numbers from the air), that seems reasonable.

[Miranda]

I'd say transitions are more important still. The top GM's can put up better live fire times than many GM's can do in dry fire with zero recoil. There's a reason for that.

I look forward to the day when what I think you are calling transitions is a time problem for me.

.... ummm. how do you know the dry fire times?

miranda

[GunBugBit]

I'd say transitions are more important still. The top GM's can put up better live fire times than many GM's can do in dry fire with zero recoil. There's a reason for that.

...

.... ummm. how do you know the dry fire times?

I think he must go over to the lesser GMs' homes and time their dry-fire. Yeah, that must be it.

[IHAVEGAS]

I look forward to the day when what I think you are calling transitions is a time problem for me.

For what it is worth maybe not a problem but maybe an opportunity to pick some low hanging fruit. A buddy (I think he made GM this year but maybe he is still M, in any case I think he knows what he is doing) set up some targets that required a long swing side to side, timed me, instructed me to really use my lower body and drive hard & timed again.

When we were done he had me 0.4 seconds better on just 1 transition.

That was an unusually long (maybe 120 degree) transition and my skill level starting is likely more modest than most folks, but it was still eye opening. I have gotten a little better this year and I think this is one of the things that has helped.

[Arc Angel]

It would be interesting to get more input on this one too. My opinion is that timing the gun is common but not ideal. The misses (low) as more precision is required at distance or perhaps just because of a small target area seem to come from changing how you let off the shot (slower) and your internal timing being geared for a different time.

I've hesitated to respond to this remark because it's so difficult to address. Things happen really fast when firing quickly; and, at least for me, it's difficult to sort everything out in order to be able to grasp it with my conscious mind; and, I’m of the opinion that for many shooters, it's also exceedingly difficult for them to understand, 'Why' or, 'How' they shoot so well without being able to rationalize their body's own physiological functions.

(In other words, many people shoot well; but are unable to explain either why, or how they manage to do it - They simply do it without a conscious explanation for either themselves, or others.)

Personally, I shot well for many years without truly understanding how I was able to do it. This wasn't a problem for me until I injured myself, and had to stop shooting for awhile - only to discover that my previous (mostly) instinctive shooting skill just seemed to evaporate!

The lesson I learned is that a, 'naturally depreciating skill set' like pistol or rifle shooting is exceedingly difficult to maintain over time UNLESS the rudiments and proprioceptive mechanics of that elusive skill set are able to be consciously explained and, thereby, understood.

Nowadays when I go, 'off' I'll stop and mentally review the do's and don'ts of what I've learned about pistol shooting. When I was a young shooter I shot, more or less, by instinct. Today, though, I tend to fire by a very deliberate method of conscious recall. This recall occurs on BOTH a mental and physical level; and it works a whole lot better for me than merely firing by rote.

Because I'm able to consciously recall and adequately understand what I need to do in order to (repetitively) hit the target, it's no longer necessary for me to have to reach into, 'the netherworld at the back of my mind’, or to fire thousands of rounds in order to regain a skill set that I've been unpracticed at for awhile. Instead, I’m able to rely upon actually understanding the mechanics of pistol shooting; and I can consciously recall whatever I need to know in order to keep on hitting the target.

In the above cited instance I think that proprioceptive trigger control ('driving the gun') operates, or should operate, off the visual cues supplied to the shooter's brain by his apparent front sight picture.

As I said, everything's happens very fast; and, yet, I do believe that there's an, ‘essentially mindless’ preconditioned reflex that can cause a shooter to drop repetitive shots as the distance to the target increases, and/or the front sight picture becomes narrower and narrower.

As best as I'm able to determine: I think the brain actively interprets the decreasing front sight picture and adjusts the proprioceptive mind/body reflexes accordingly. All of which indicates to me that if a shooter is dropping his shots as distance increases, then, he's firing mainly by rote (by instinct) without the advantage of being able to actively process his visual inputs by using alert conscious recall.

Too abstract for ya?

OK! If you can't adequately explain something to yourself then you certainly aren't going to be able to explain it to anyone else, either. When I'm regularly practiced (not now) I don't drop shots. No matter the distance I put everything into nice tight 8 inch circles. Personally I attribute this to being able to almost instantly read and, then, immediately respond to my own visual front sight pictures.

It is at this point that deliberate conscious recall, and firing by instinct (or rote) come together, and blend into one. Because there is no deliberate thought involved in intentional proprioceptive reflex, front sight dwell time reduces itself to almost zero. (I wish!)

However, when the front sight picture changes so does my trigger stroking technique; and if that isn't happening then, as far as I'm concerned, the problem becomes a matter of me not truly understanding what I’m trying to do. Rather than being a, ‘thought driven shooter’ who understands, ‘What’ he’s about, I’ve allowed myself to become an, ‘instinct driven shooter’ who is merely firing by rote, and operating on nothing more than preconditioned physical reflex.

(I’m saying that mind should never be surrender to emotion - NOT if you want to be consistent, and continue to perform well. Once again, skillful shooting performance is a lot like playing a musical instrument and being able to, ‘keep the beat’ and carry a tune.)

In my opinion, any such muddled pistol shooter will continue to drop his shots until that moment when he consciously realizes and, then, grasps onto whatever he's doing wrong; but, more than just timing or simply, ‘driving the gun’ are involved.

There’s another, closely related, pistol shooting anomaly that I’ve also noticed: A few weeks ago I got tapped on the shoulder by another senior instructor who said to me, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way.’ ‘You shoot well; but I’ve noticed that you shoot better when you fire faster; and I’m sure of it, too.’

He was right; and, yes, I was already aware of the problem. I think I know, ‘Why’ too. It was my sight picture! I was having trouble holding onto and maintaining it between slowly fired shots. Whenever I fired more slowly I, ‘lost the visual rhythm’ and reduced my physical control over the, ‘rock and roll’ of the pistol. As the rate-of-fire slowed down I had to work harder and harder in order to recapture the previous front sight picture.

All I can say, right now, is that timing and rhythm are also involved in the problem with dropping quickly fired repetitive shots. It’s. kind ‘a, like playing a musical instrument: As the beat changes the shooter has to stay in tune; and everything a competent pistolero does while firing a gun is closely related to, and centered upon keeping his rhythm - A feat which is impossible to accomplish without: A proper grip on the pistol, a skillful trigger stroke (or, ‘tap’), and a very carefully watched front sight picture.

[Miranda]

the trick here is to understand you have lots of time

after the shot is out of the pistol to do things like find a new target

the one thing you can't do while a pistol is in recoil

and recharging the chamber... you can't aim the thing.

miranda

[IHAVEGAS]

All I can say, right now, is that timing and rhythm are also involved in the problem with dropping quickly fired repetitive shots. It’s. kind ‘a, like playing a musical instrument: As the beat changes the shooter has to stay in tune; and everything a competent pistolero does while firing a gun is closely related to, and centered upon keeping his rhythm - A feat which is impossible to accomplish without: A proper grip on the pistol, a skillful trigger stroke (or, ‘tap’), and a very carefully watched front sight picture.

I'm not sure if that is not doing things the most difficult way though. When I achieve a true surprise shot (or have spent a lot of time dry firing and little time with live fire) my accuracy seems to be at its best and I suspect that there is no proactive recoil reaction. I suspect, but do not know, that many of the best shooters are not pushing the gun proactively based upon at varying sight driven cues and with an appropriately varied reaction time, I think they are achieving the equivalent of a surprise shot instead.

[BoyGlock]

I dunno, maybe Im dumber than you guys because I dont and cannot consciously comprehend anything and everything that happens as my pistol fires. I guess thats beyond my analizing mind. I just act on instinct and faith that my sights will be there for my needed shots and speed.

[IHAVEGAS]

I dont and cannot consciously comprehend anything and everything that happens as my pistol fires.

I am not sure that anyone does, it can be interesting to try and figure out though.

[Miranda]

I dunno, maybe Im dumber than you guys because I dont and cannot consciously comprehend anything and everything that happens as my pistol fires. I guess thats beyond my analizing mind. I just act on instinct and faith that my sights will be there for my needed shots and speed.

I agree a lot is going on in that brief time.

try watching what you do in that time...

miranda

[Jshuberg]

It would be interesting to get more input on this one too. My opinion is that timing the gun is common but not ideal. The misses (low) as more precision is required at distance or perhaps just because of a small target area seem to come from changing how you let off the shot (slower) and your internal timing being geared for a different time.

I've hesitated to respond to this remark because it's so difficult to address. Things happen really fast when firing quickly; and, at least for me, it's difficult to sort everything out in order to be able to grasp it with my conscious mind; and, I’m of the opinion that for many shooters, it's also exceedingly difficult for them to understand, 'Why' or, 'How' they shoot so well without being able to rationalize their body's own physiological functions.

(In other words, many people shoot well; but are unable to explain either why, or how they manage to do it - They simply do it without a conscious explanation for either themselves, or others.)

Personally, I shot well for many years without truly understanding how I was able to do it. This wasn't a problem for me until I injured myself, and had to stop shooting for awhile - only to discover that my previous (mostly) instinctive shooting skill just seemed to evaporate!

The lesson I learned is that a, 'naturally depreciating skill set' like pistol or rifle shooting is exceedingly difficult to maintain over time UNLESS the rudiments and proprioceptive mechanics of that elusive skill set are able to be consciously explained and, thereby, understood.

Nowadays when I go, 'off' I'll stop and mentally review the do's and don'ts of what I've learned about pistol shooting. When I was a young shooter I shot, more or less, by instinct. Today, though, I tend to fire by a very deliberate method of conscious recall. This recall occurs on BOTH a mental and physical level; and it works a whole lot better for me than merely firing by rote.

Because I'm able to consciously recall and adequately understand what I need to do in order to (repetitively) hit the target, it's no longer necessary for me to have to reach into, 'the netherworld at the back of my mind’, or to fire thousands of rounds in order to regain a skill set that I've been unpracticed at for awhile. Instead, I’m able to rely upon actually understanding the mechanics of pistol shooting; and I can consciously recall whatever I need to know in order to keep on hitting the target.

In the above cited instance I think that proprioceptive trigger control ('driving the gun') operates, or should operate, off the visual cues supplied to the shooter's brain by his apparent front sight picture.

As I said, everything's happens very fast; and, yet, I do believe that there's an, ‘essentially mindless’ preconditioned reflex that can cause a shooter to drop repetitive shots as the distance to the target increases, and/or the front sight picture becomes narrower and narrower.

As best as I'm able to determine: I think the brain actively interprets the decreasing front sight picture and adjusts the proprioceptive mind/body reflexes accordingly. All of which indicates to me that if a shooter is dropping his shots as distance increases, then, he's firing mainly by rote (by instinct) without the advantage of being able to actively process his visual inputs by using alert conscious recall.

Too abstract for ya?

OK! If you can't adequately explain something to yourself then you certainly aren't going to be able to explain it to anyone else, either. When I'm regularly practiced (not now) I don't drop shots. No matter the distance I put everything into nice tight 8 inch circles. Personally I attribute this to being able to almost instantly read and, then, immediately respond to my own visual front sight pictures.

It is at this point that deliberate conscious recall, and firing by instinct (or rote) come together, and blend into one. Because there is no deliberate thought involved in intentional proprioceptive reflex, front sight dwell time reduces itself to almost zero. (I wish!)

However, when the front sight picture changes so does my trigger stroking technique; and if that isn't happening then, as far as I'm concerned, the problem becomes a matter of me not truly understanding what I’m trying to do. Rather than being a, ‘thought driven shooter’ who understands, ‘What’ he’s about, I’ve allowed myself to become an, ‘instinct driven shooter’ who is merely firing by rote, and operating on nothing more than preconditioned physical reflex.

(I’m saying that mind should never be surrender to emotion - NOT if you want to be consistent, and continue to perform well. Once again, skillful shooting performance is a lot like playing a musical instrument and being able to, ‘keep the beat’ and carry a tune.)

In my opinion, any such muddled pistol shooter will continue to drop his shots until that moment when he consciously realizes and, then, grasps onto whatever he's doing wrong; but, more than just timing or simply, ‘driving the gun’ are involved.

There’s another, closely related, pistol shooting anomaly that I’ve also noticed: A few weeks ago I got tapped on the shoulder by another senior instructor who said to me, ‘Don’t take this the wrong way.’ ‘You shoot well; but I’ve noticed that you shoot better when you fire faster; and I’m sure of it, too.’

He was right; and, yes, I was already aware of the problem. I think I know, ‘Why’ too. It was my sight picture! I was having trouble holding onto and maintaining it between slowly fired shots. Whenever I fired more slowly I, ‘lost the visual rhythm’ and reduced my physical control over the, ‘rock and roll’ of the pistol. As the rate-of-fire slowed down I had to work harder and harder in order to recapture the previous front sight picture.

All I can say, right now, is that timing and rhythm are also involved in the problem with dropping quickly fired repetitive shots. It’s. kind ‘a, like playing a musical instrument: As the beat changes the shooter has to stay in tune; and everything a competent pistolero does while firing a gun is closely related to, and centered upon keeping his rhythm - A feat which is impossible to accomplish without: A proper grip on the pistol, a skillful trigger stroke (or, ‘tap’), and a very carefully watched front sight picture.

This is a very good post!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[trickpony]

Lots of great information here on grip technique. I think the best advice I ever got was from Manny Bragg and his famous marker technique. He long ago told Vogel to start using the CoC grip trainers while explaining to him how to tame recoil at a match in Tulsa, Hand strength along with the weak hand grip are what tame recoil. I hate recoil so I do many things to my handguns to assist in taming recoil but the thing that helps the most is to keep a strong support hand grip, fingers should be pointed at approximately a 45 degree angle down toward the ground when you extend your support hand fingers. Support hand should be tucked into strong hand around grip so that grip exposure is at a minimum. And shoot groups while you watch the sights lift over and over again. Fun stuff.

Buy these: http://www.mannyusa.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=Captains_of_Crush

Edited November 11, 2015 by trickpony

[Isurg]

This thread has some good stuff

[59nolimit]

Great post!! Now that my brain is on overload with all this I think going to the indoor range, since its open today and cold outside, and try some of these mentioned techniques.

[crischristy]

very good information on this post. I have a follow up question though. I shoot an XDM 4.5 9mm and has just completed my 1st year of shooting. My natural hold on the pistol is to use my left index finger wrapped around the trigger guard. I think it helps me to control the recoil but up to this point am not particularly sure as the only thing I can remember while shooting is the front sight. I look at the times I do and think I should be going faster but like I said when the timer goes beep all I can remember is the front sight. I am at a crossroads on the gripping technique should I change at this point or just go forward with the finger around the trigger guard. Here is a video of a stage I did in a competition last week

[Arc Angel]

Very good information on this post. I have a follow up question though. I shoot an XDM 4.5 9mm and has just completed my 1st year of shooting.

My natural hold on the pistol is to use my left index finger wrapped around the trigger guard. I think it helps me to control the recoil but up to this point am not particularly sure as the only thing I can remember while shooting is the front sight.

I look at the times I do and think I should be going faster but like I said when the timer goes beep all I can remember is the front sight. I am at a crossroads on the gripping technique should I change at this point or just go forward with the finger around the trigger guard. Here is a video of a stage I did in a competition last week.*

* (Edited For Clarity!)

With or without the video, (The link isn’t working!) this is another very good question. Over the years I’ve seen numerous pistol shooters use highly individual grips and shooting styles in order to win matches; and, they DID win matches! As time passed I came to the personal conclusion that: A pistol shooter can teach himself how to do almost anything in order to win. It’s all a matter of what you regularly practice and habitually teach yourself how to do.

As for myself? I’ve been shooting pistols for a long time; and, for a while there (back in the early days) I did, indeed, seek to control muzzle rise; and, to a certain extent, control my muzzle’s direction by using my support index finger in order to ride the front of the trigger guard. Yes, this technique can be made to work; and for certain pistol shooters does, indeed, work; however, I am also positive that it lacks flexibility, and is NOT readily adaptable to a wide variety of different pistol shooting circumstances.

For instance, riding the front of the trigger guard is great for pulling the muzzle down between shots; and I also think that it helps to point the muzzle at the target, at least, some of the time; but - but - at the same time riding the front of the trigger guard is - in my experience - a poorer way to manage the all-important, ‘sweet spot’ on every pistol’s backstrap. Again, in my opinion, a (right-handed) pistol shooter can do a much better job of keeping his shots centered, and avoid dropping them to 7:00 o’clock on the target by using his support thumb to do exactly the same thing that’s he might, otherwise, do by riding the front of the trigger guard.

Personally I, ‘steer’ my pistol’s muzzle by using my support arm ALL THE WAY BACK TO MY SHOULDER. Something that would be lot harder for me to do if I were to splay my fingers and extend the index finger of my supporting hand. I’ve, also, found it to be faster to use a conventional, two-fisted grip; which, once again, allows me to maintain tighter control over the, 'sweet spot' on my pistol's backstrap. (Something that, if I do not do, can send my marksmanship ability with a pistol straight to Hell.)

When I shoot with both hands I use a Reverse Chapman grip (Middlebrooks’ ‘Fist-Fire’); and I fully agree with D.R. that this grip is considerably less fatiguing, overall, and far less stressful on the wrist and upper tendons of the strong forearm. Although D.R. Middlebrooks, and Robert Vogel, each, teach it in different ways, both pistol champions maintain tight side-to-side control of their pistols by using a conventional two-fisted grip, and side pressure from their thumbs.

Then (and by varying degree) they, each, ever so slightly, splay the bottom of one or both hands outward - Which, when done correctly, tends to cant the top of the pistol into a gentle angle that some pistol shooters jokingly refer to as a, ‘homie-style’ grip. The side-to-side muzzle control I’ve enjoyed while using this particular grip technique has allowed me to do some of the best pistol shooting of my entire life - Even after I was badly injured and, 'forgot' how to handle a pistol for awhile.

I know I certainly wouldn’t encourage any pistol shooter to ride the front strap on his pistol’s trigger guard; and, in my opinion, you should stop immediately. Nobody uses this grip with a revolver; and, as far as I’m concerned, nobody should do it with a semi-auto either.

Being fast, by the way, is something that an intermediate pistol shooter should just allow himself to naturally fall into. The subtle way in which your brain and your body’s proprioceptive reflexes seem to recognize sight pictures; and, then, harmoniously blend them into complimentary muscular reactions seems to occur quite naturally, and without a need for any additional outside input from the shooter’s conscious mind.

The only real additional requirement(s) I’m aware of in order to shoot a pistol quickly and well are the very real need for frequent practice, and the means to fire a good 1,000 to 1,500 rounds each month. Believe me, in time, it’ll all come to you. Once you start to match the rhythm of the pistol's recoil with the pattern of your front sight bouncing, up and down, you’ll simply be there! This is what happened to me; and I’m sure it’s happened to a lot of other pistol shooters, too.

The only additional advice I have to offer is that when you want to learn how to shoot a pistol really fast, practice and condition yourself to firing your pistol at between 12 and 20 yards; and do NOT waste time trying to precisely, ‘nest’ your front sight into its rear notch. Teach yourself to fire, ‘OFF THE TOP' of the front sight, instead. Do NOT waste your time practicing on the close-in targets. Other than, perhaps, getting warmed up, shooting close-in is too easy; and you won’t really learn anything.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Arc Angel