Wesquire Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 If you think timing is the answer, you are quite frankly a moron. You shoot what you see, not by your timing. When or how soon you can see an acceptable sight picture is going to based on the timing of the gun. The timing of the gun is going to vary on the load, spring weights, gun weight ect. and how firm you grip the gun. CHA-LEE has an advantage of strong grip strength. It's an advantage because this grip strength enables CHA-LEE to flatten the timing of the gun, firing shots sooner because the sights are back on target sooner. I can promise you he doesn't just shoot to a rhythm. Less flip just means you can see faster and get the gun pointed on target faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesquire Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 If you think timing is the answer, you are quite frankly a moron. You shoot what you see, not by your timing. Don't think you need to stoop to personal insults. Not cool. If it is a duck, I call it a duck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesquire Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 If you think timing is the answer, you are quite frankly a moron. You shoot what you see, not by your timing. not so sure I would agree entirely with you. I don't think gmanbart was saying timing is the answer, but it certainly seems to me that by practicing with a particular gun and load that I can start to anticipate when i will see enough to break the shot confidently so i can start sending the signal to squeeze the trigger a little earlier. Familiarity definitely helps. However, it is nonsense to shoot faster or at a different pace than what you see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 (edited) If you think timing is the answer, you are quite frankly a moron. You shoot what you see, not by your timing. not so sure I would agree entirely with you. I don't think gmanbart was saying timing is the answer, but it certainly seems to me that by practicing with a particular gun and load that I can start to anticipate when i will see enough to break the shot confidently so i can start sending the signal to squeeze the trigger a little earlier. Familiarity definitely helps. However, it is nonsense to shoot faster or at a different pace than what you see. no one said otherwise. however familiarity helps me to see at a faster pace. unless it's a tight with no-shoots, I don't really need to see the sight picture before I start squeezing the trigger, I just need to see the sight picture as the shot breaks, so I know if i need to make it up. Edited January 4, 2016 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 (edited) This stuff really isn't very pertinent to recoil control, but since we're there... All that matters is that you have enough information to be able to call your shot. It does not matter which sense you get that information from. Timing, like it or not, plays a factor in most people's shooting. The degree that it plays is dependent on a whole lot of variables. To say it is always bad or nonsense is too strong. As with pretty much everything, the reality is more grey than black or white. Also, using the reasoning of "if it's a duck I call it a duck" to justify insulting people who disagree with you on something subjective is pretty weak. Edited January 4, 2016 by Jake Di Vita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 hi wesquire, one of the rules on this forum is to refrain from (that is do not) personal insults. I have been dealing with a handful of individuals who call out anyone who does not agree; an idiot. so I am paying it a lot of attention. as an aside, your reply otherwise made me think "wesquire didn't read the post that caused his ill considered response..." miranda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothguy Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 (edited) If you think timing is the answer, you are quite frankly a moron. You shoot what you see, not by your timing. When or how soon you can see an acceptable sight picture is going to based on the timing of the gun. The timing of the gun is going to vary on the load, spring weights, gun weight ect. and how firm you grip the gun. CHA-LEE has an advantage of strong grip strength. It's an advantage because this grip strength enables CHA-LEE to flatten the timing of the gun, firing shots sooner because the sights are back on target sooner. I can promise you he doesn't just shoot to a rhythm. Less flip just means you can see faster and get the gun pointed on target faster. I wasn't thinking that at all. I think his vision totally dictates the speed at which he shoots so he can get the hits he needs. But if he were shooting to a rhythm it would be faster due to a stronger grip. Edited January 4, 2016 by toothguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesquire Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 hi wesquire, one of the rules on this forum is to refrain from (that is do not) personal insults. I have been dealing with a handful of individuals who call out anyone who does not agree; an idiot. so I am paying it a lot of attention. as an aside, your reply otherwise made me think "wesquire didn't read the post that caused his ill considered response..." miranda Did I call him a moron? Depends on if he still thinks you shoot to a rhythm instead of sight. If someone thinks 9/11 was a government conspiracy they are a moron, if you believe in alien abductions you are a moron, if you don't believe in evolution you are a moron. If that breaks the forum rules, so be it. Doesn't do anyone any good to protect people from the harsh truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) the common courtesy with this one not strong is. Edited January 5, 2016 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesquire Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 This stuff really isn't very pertinent to recoil control, but since we're there... All that matters is that you have enough information to be able to call your shot. It does not matter which sense you get that information from. Timing, like it or not, plays a factor in most people's shooting. The degree that it plays is dependent on a whole lot of variables. To say it is always bad or nonsense is too strong. As with pretty much everything, the reality is more grey than black or white. Also, using the reasoning of "if it's a duck I call it a duck" to justify insulting people who disagree with you on something subjective is pretty weak. Timing is great for sharpening your expectations as to the window in which your sights will likely be where they need to be. However, just shooting to a rhythm would be devastating. You can have your trigger prepped and be ready to fire within the couple hundredths of a second window you expect, but what you see should ultimately be the regulator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obsessiveshooter Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 hi wesquire, one of the rules on this forum is to refrain from (that is do not) personal insults. I have been dealing with a handful of individuals who call out anyone who does not agree; an idiot. so I am paying it a lot of attention. as an aside, your reply otherwise made me think "wesquire didn't read the post that caused his ill considered response..." miranda Did I call him a moron? Depends on if he still thinks you shoot to a rhythm instead of sight. If someone thinks 9/11 was a government conspiracy they are a moron, if you believe in alien abductions you are a moron, if you don't believe in evolution you are a moron. If that breaks the forum rules, so be it. Doesn't do anyone any good to protect people from the harsh truth.What arrogance. This seems to be the new American Way, conflating disagreement with either stupidity or wickedness. It's just weird to see it happen over something as small as the semantics of recoil control.Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Timing is great for sharpening your expectations as to the window in which your sights will likely be where they need to be. However, just shooting to a rhythm would be devastating. i don't think anyone ever suggested anything different than that. Not sure who you are arguing with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesquire Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 hi wesquire, one of the rules on this forum is to refrain from (that is do not) personal insults. I have been dealing with a handful of individuals who call out anyone who does not agree; an idiot. so I am paying it a lot of attention. as an aside, your reply otherwise made me think "wesquire didn't read the post that caused his ill considered response..." miranda Did I call him a moron? Depends on if he still thinks you shoot to a rhythm instead of sight. If someone thinks 9/11 was a government conspiracy they are a moron, if you believe in alien abductions you are a moron, if you don't believe in evolution you are a moron. If that breaks the forum rules, so be it. Doesn't do anyone any good to protect people from the harsh truth.What arrogance. This seems to be the new American Way, conflating disagreement with either stupidity or wickedness. It's just weird to see it happen over something as small as the semantics of recoil control.Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk Disagree with my opinions all you want. That's fine and encouraged. Disagree with facts and I'm not going to let it ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) I know for a fact that I can shoot pretty consistently based on index. A few years ago I ran 100 draws to a popper at 10 yards with my eyes closed and I hit 93 of them. I've also done a lot of eyes closed bill drills and blake drills trying to really feel what is going on with the gun and posted some pretty decent scores. It is certainly possible to shoot based off index and not sight and hit what you want to. I do that all the time in matches (not eyes closed, but definitely not on the sights) at 5 yards and in, and for this year over about 15 matches I averaged around 95% points. Edited January 5, 2016 by Jake Di Vita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesquire Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Timing is great for sharpening your expectations as to the window in which your sights will likely be where they need to be. However, just shooting to a rhythm would be devastating. i don't think anyone ever suggested anything different than that. Not sure who you are arguing with. That is exactly what G man was implying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) Timing is great for sharpening your expectations as to the window in which your sights will likely be where they need to be. However, just shooting to a rhythm would be devastating. i don't think anyone ever suggested anything different than that. Not sure who you are arguing with. That is exactly what G man was implying. IMHO, you may have misunderstood his post entirely. I personally don't think different pf's are as big a deal as gmanbart does, but he's a gm and I'm not, so I'm not going to jump off the deep end criticizing his ideas. In a match situation, 5 or 10 pf doesn't appear to even show up on my radar, although I can definitely feel it in practice. Edited January 5, 2016 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 hi wesquire, one of the rules on this forum is to refrain from (that is do not) personal insults. I have been dealing with a handful of individuals who call out anyone who does not agree; an idiot. so I am paying it a lot of attention. as an aside, your reply otherwise made me think "wesquire didn't read the post that caused his ill considered response..." miranda Did I call him a moron? Depends on if he still thinks you shoot to a rhythm instead of sight. If someone thinks 9/11 was a government conspiracy they are a moron, if you believe in alien abductions you are a moron, if you don't believe in evolution you are a moron. If that breaks the forum rules, so be it. Doesn't do anyone any good to protect people from the harsh truth. k,...I'll try again I know how feeling like a punching bag can make you feel. I have been there. I ask you to consider that you are insulting at least a few people. The "truth" can be a harsh hammer. in this I agree. here is a truth. Stating "If you think this way then you are a moron" is never taken as anything other than an insult. face the truth of that. now, allow me to offer you an out... I do not anyone took it all that personally. I think you were given leeway and were understood for what you meant. What is before you is a request to stop insulting the fellows who may not agree with you. miranda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesquire Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Timing is great for sharpening your expectations as to the window in which your sights will likely be where they need to be. However, just shooting to a rhythm would be devastating. i don't think anyone ever suggested anything different than that. Not sure who you are arguing with. That is exactly what G man was implying. IMHO, you may have misunderstood his post entirely. I personally don't think different pf's are as big a deal as gmanbart does, but he's a gm and I'm not, so I'm not going to jump off the deep end criticizing his ideas. In a match situation, 5 or 10 pf doesn't appear to even show up on my radar, although I can definitely feel it in practice. There isn't anything else he could have meant by timing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 I might be a moron too because I'm quite certain timing is involved with my fastest splits and gradually becomes less of a factor as the split times increase. Timing as far as what is familiar with my gun and ammo is probably a factor in most every shot, or at least as far what I expect to see. At least that's the way it's seems with my shooting. But, I'm just a moron, so what do I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Timing is great for sharpening your expectations as to the window in which your sights will likely be where they need to be. However, just shooting to a rhythm would be devastating. i don't think anyone ever suggested anything different than that. Not sure who you are arguing with. That is exactly what G man was implying. IMHO, you may have misunderstood his post entirely. I personally don't think different pf's are as big a deal as gmanbart does, but he's a gm and I'm not, so I'm not going to jump off the deep end criticizing his ideas. In a match situation, 5 or 10 pf doesn't appear to even show up on my radar, although I can definitely feel it in practice. There isn't anything else he could have meant by timing. Really? what about the points I brought up that you even agreed with? I think it is sometimes helpful to remember that everyone (even morons) knows things that you don't. You can choose to learn from them and become smarter, or you can be rude and remain less smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tha1000 Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Sure Back to the subject at hand, CHA-LEE. What were you getting as your initial measurements on the grip Dyno and where are you now? If you don't mind sharing. Just trying to determine where I stand on grip strength, vs a nationally competitive gm. The good news is that I had access to a high end Dyno this morning. The bad news is that I was diagnosed with arthritis in the shoulder and biceps tendinitis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Sure Back to the subject at hand, CHA-LEE. What were you getting as your initial measurements on the grip Dyno and where are you now? If you don't mind sharing. Just trying to determine where I stand on grip strength, vs a nationally competitive gm. The good news is that I had access to a high end Dyno this morning. The bad news is that I was diagnosed with arthritis in the shoulder and biceps tendinitis. I have been training my grip strength for a long time, but I believe that when I first started looking into it I got the Captains of Crush gripper set and I could only close the #1.5 (168lbs) with both hands. I used the CoC grippers to improve my grip strength to the point of being able to close the #2.5 (238lbs) with both hands. Then I started having disk herniation issues in my neck that first impacted my right arm then again on my left arm. After those neck injuries have been able to rebuild my grip strength to close the #2.5 gripper again with my right hand but my left hand grip strength has been permanently reduced so I can only close the #2 (195lbs) with my left hand. I keep performing gripper workouts and right now I am pretty much in maintenance mode to retain the grip strength I currently have. I decided to get the Grip Dyno mainly because the steps between the CoC grippers was too broad and I wanted something that could measure my strength improvement in a more refined manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tha1000 Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Sure Back to the subject at hand, CHA-LEE. What were you getting as your initial measurements on the grip Dyno and where are you now? If you don't mind sharing. Just trying to determine where I stand on grip strength, vs a nationally competitive gm. The good news is that I had access to a high end Dyno this morning. The bad news is that I was diagnosed with arthritis in the shoulder and biceps tendinitis. I have been training my grip strength for a long time, but I believe that when I first started looking into it I got the Captains of Crush gripper set and I could only close the #1.5 (168lbs) with both hands. I used the CoC grippers to improve my grip strength to the point of being able to close the #2.5 (238lbs) with both hands. Then I started having disk herniation issues in my neck that first impacted my right arm then again on my left arm. After those neck injuries have been able to rebuild my grip strength to close the #2.5 gripper again with my right hand but my left hand grip strength has been permanently reduced so I can only close the #2 (195lbs) with my left hand. I keep performing gripper workouts and right now I am pretty much in maintenance mode to retain the grip strength I currently have. I decided to get the Grip Dyno mainly because the steps between the CoC grippers was too broad and I wanted something that could measure my strength improvement in a more refined manner. Roger that. I haven't messed with the CoC, but have a competitor's grippers and can close their 250 with each hand, but have no idea how it translates to CoC. I measured a consistent 140# with each hand on the Jamar hydraulic grip dyno this morning, per the pt's spec of basically my elbows touching my rib cage and arms bent at a 90 degree angle. I felt measurably weaker with my arms in that position, but that is neither here nor there. What are you getting on your dyno? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) I can max out my cheap Camery grip dyno at more than 200lbs with both hands if I grip with all my fingers and use a normal "straight" wrist angle. Since I can max out my grip dyno with a "normal" grip using all fingers, I started to use it differently to replicate the conditions and angles of gripping a gun. For the strong hand I will grip it with only three fingers leaving my trigger finger off and point the gripper forward the same way as shooting strong hand only. Doing that I can produce 160lbs of grip force. For the weak hand I use all four fingers but I cant my wrist froward like I would using a normal thumbs forward grip on the gun and put my left arm out like I am building a "normal" two handed grip. The grip dyno is pointing down at roughly a 45 degree angle during this test and I can produce 150lbs of grip force. Testing my grip strength using the same finger count and wrist angles as shooting made more sense to me in quantifying how much grip force I am able to produce while shooting. I have used my grip dyno and these "Shooting Type" of tests on many different shooters. From my grip dyno testing and observations while watching them shoot to see how well they can manage recoil, I have found that shooters with 100+ lbs of grip strength on each hand while replicating the "Shooting Type" of tests can usually manage the recoil of their pistols very well. Surprisingly there are not too many shooters I have tested that can produce 100+ lbs of grip force. The "Average" shooter seems to fall in the 70 - 80lbs of grip strength level and watching their guns flip around or shift around in their hands while shooting confirms that they are not gripping the gun hard enough due to simply being too weak. I have also tested several shooters who have GM classifications in Limited division or other Iron sight divisions and all but one had at least 100lbs of grip strength while doing the "Shooting Type" of test. The Top Limited GM's that I tested all had at least 140+ lbs of grip strength. This testing data confirms a solid link between gripping the gun HARD with a lot of pounds of grip force and being able to perform exceptionally well while shooting major PF non-compensated guns. I have said it before, but I will say it again. There is no getting around the fact that gripping the gun with a lot of pounds of grip force is better than using a weak grip and letting the gun flop around excessively. Edited January 5, 2016 by CHA-LEE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 I have also tested several shooters who have GM classifications in Limited division or other Iron sight divisions and all but one had at least 100lbs of grip strength while doing the "Shooting Type" of test. The Top Limited GM's that I tested all had at least 140+ lbs of grip strength. did they get that strength through specific grip strength gadgets? or through daily dryfire? or through other ways? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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