the secret to recoil control?

[arkadi]

If you're in position to ask her about recoil management - that would be a valuable insight. Maybe she is from rowing and could crush many man's hands with ease.

[jroback]

No question that grip strength is important, and all else being equal it would certainly be better to have more grip strength for handgun sports.

However, the technique issue I'm trying to work through now is what in addition to the grip is important to recoil control? Through a combination of grip strength exercises, finding grips that best fit my hands (I use the CZ Scales), and using LiquidGrip, I run through mags without the gun shifting in my hands at all.

However, I don't think I've yet optimized recoil control. This is why I think its interesting to hear what others are doing with their arms, shoulders, etc, to absorb the energy of the gun and drive it back on target as quickly and reproducibly as possible.

Where the problem becomes even more challenging, IMO, is the interplay between grip and the rest of the body. For example, lets say you decided to use the Vogel approach and really apply shoulder and arm pressure to rotate both hands inward toward the base of the thumbs so you are choking the gun at the top of the grip. The more you rotate your hands, the less purchase your 3/4/5 fingers have on the grip. Now, do you still have enough hand strength to prevent the gun from moving in your hands? How do you find the best compromise? There have been a lot of interesting approaches to this problem discussed in this thread. . .

[Jake Di Vita]

A strong grip will always help for sure

But I just shot with a 17 yr old girl that placed within 3% of a GM at a local match. He was in the top 16 at the nationals. She can't weigh 110 lbs.

It's not all strength.

There are a lot of local matches where the stages are set up in a way that there isn't much room to separate yourself. From my own experience at locals I've had guys place in the upper 90% of me and be 30% or more behind at a major. While that's cool she did that, let's not get carried away from a tiny sample size. It obviously isn't all strength, but too little strength can clearly be a gigantic disadvantage. I would also say if you take two shooters of equal skill level, the stronger one is probably going to win.

I like the captains of crush, but rock climbing once or twice a week got my hands way stronger than anything else I've ever done.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Jake Di Vita

[CHA-LEE]

A strong grip will always help for sure

But I just shot with a 17 yr old girl that placed within 3% of a GM at a local match. He was in the top 16 at the nationals. She can't weigh 110 lbs.

It's not all strength.

You can look for excuses to not improve your grip strength or you can just face the facts and get it done.

[JD45]

Very true, Jake. Very true.

[RaylanGivens]

I have a grip dyno that I got on eBay. A tool like that is really the only way to measure your grip strength and track your improvement.

Interesting... This is the first I've heard of grip dynos... Turns out that there are lots of different grip dynos... Can you recommend a good one?

[CHA-LEE]

I got the below grip dyno made by Camery. Its inexpensive and pretty accurate for how cheap it is. The only down fall is that it only goes to 200lbs so once you get mega grip strength you can max it out pretty easily.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CAMRY-200-Lbs-Digital-Hand-Dynamometer-Grip-Strength-Training-Measurement-Meter-/221800765030?hash=item33a45b1666:g:C1cAAOSwLVZVuu0C

[racerba]

A strong grip will always help for sure

But I just shot with a 17 yr old girl that placed within 3% of a GM at a local match. He was in the top 16 at the nationals. She can't weigh 110 lbs.

It's not all strength.

There are a lot of local matches where the stages are set up in a way that there isn't much room to separate yourself. From my own experience at locals I've had guys place in the upper 90% of me and be 30% or more behind at a major. While that's cool she did that, let's not get carried away from a tiny sample size. It obviously isn't all strength, but too little strength can clearly be a gigantic disadvantage. I would also say if you take two shooters of equal skill level, the stronger one is probably going to win.

I like the captains of crush, but rock climbing once or twice a week got my hands way stronger than anything else I've ever done.

Placement is everything else put together: shot placement, movement, etc...not just grip strength...

[Jake Di Vita]

Placement is everything else put together: shot placement, movement, etc...not just grip strength...

Shot placement, movement, etc I would include in the "if you take two shooters of equal skill level" since I would consider those skills.

I should have worded myself differently. What I should have said is with equal skill the stronger shooter will tend to score higher. I say this because assuming equal skill and technique, the stronger shooter will control recoil better and have a larger buffer for how much non-ideal shooting positions affect them.

Trust me, I know there is more to winning matches than grip strength. That isn't what I was saying at all. The thread is about recoil control afterall - only one of the many things required to be successful in this sport.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Jake Di Vita

[motosapiens]

Shot placement, movement, etc I would include in the "if you take two shooters of equal skill level" since I would consider those skills.

I should have worded myself differently. What I should have said is with equal skill the stronger shooter will tend to score higher. I say this because assuming equal skill and technique, the stronger shooter will control recoil better and have a larger buffer for how much non-ideal shooting positions affect them.

Trust me, I know there is more to winning matches than grip strength. That isn't what I was saying at all. The thread is about recoil control afterall - only one of the many things required to be successful in this sport.

I wonder where the point of diminishing returns is tho. Is it something where more is better, period? Or is it like so many other traits, where just some easily achieved minimum gets you what you need.

One example that comes to mind is running speed. Clearly not that important since the majority of elite shooters are in pretty average shape, and many are downright sedentary. Seems like as long as you can get started and up to a reasonable speed quickly, there's little more to be gained.

It doesn't seem to me like it takes tremendous amounts of grip strength to control a pistol, but it does take some practice to employ that strength in the right way, and without compromising trigger finger control.

then again, I mostly shoot minor, so i can be a weakling with less penalty.

Edited December 30, 2015 by motosapiens

[Jake Di Vita]

I completely agree. From the perspective of strength, I think the weaker you are the more important it is and the diminishing returns come quickly after a certain point. It's hard to say definitively what point that is, but you certainly don't need to be the Hulk.

There is absolutely a difference between strength and productive application of force. Technique is what bridges the two.

Shooting open it was very easy to become lazy behind the gun. I think that is usually a larger culprit of the problems that come from weakness than actual strength. If actual strength is the problem, it usually jumps out at you in a glaring way.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Jake Di Vita

[grapemeister]

There is absolutely a difference between strength and productive application of force. Technique is what bridges the two.

Right on, so plainly spoken and easily understood. Doesn't seem like the importance of mechanics and technique is emphasized enough in many discussions. Edited December 30, 2015 by grapemeister

[CHA-LEE]

From a pounds of grip force capability perspective I don't see a down side to being stronger verses weaker. I actually see having more grip strength as a benefit because the stronger you are the less you have to feel like you have to death grip the gun to manage the recoil properly.

At a certain point, with very good grip strength and using the proper technique I was able to manage the recoil well enough to virtually eliminate muzzle flip. I continued to work on increasing my grip strength to see what that would do with my shooting and I noticed that I could maintain the same supreme level of recoil management without feeling like I had to grip the crap out of the gun. Simply put, I got strong enough that my normal "firm" grip on the gun produced enough pounds of grip force to effectively manage the recoil to a near zero muzzle flip level.

The important factor of having near zero muzzle flip level of recoil management with a "firm" grip, is that it dramatically reduces my overall tension level while shooting. Since I don't feel like I have to grip the crap out of the gun to manage the recoil, I can manipulate the trigger a lot easier and my movements start to flow a lot more. When I was weaker and death gripping the gun my movement would be choppy and forced as well as my trigger control was far worse. Having much more grip strength allows me to get the job done with a lot less effort than before.

Another huge benefit to improving your grip strength is the increased recoil management when shooting strong hand only. I can shoot my Limited Major gun Strong Hand Only faster and more accurate than most average shooters can using both hands. I have leveraged this improved SHO shooting skills to completely annihilate stages because I could lean far around a wall and engage a bunch of targets with one hand verses running to multiple different shooting positions to get to them. This is not a regular occurrence, but yet another tool in the tool box that I can leverage when the opportunity presents its self.

[grapemeister]

The more strength the better, of course. But, does good recoil management have to equal less muzzle flip? Sure, the less muzzle flip the better and for most of us less muzzle flip is a goal or should be a goal in our recoil management, but if you can track your sights consistently and consistently bring the sights back to where they started or efficiently transfer the gun to the next target, does it really matter how much muzzle flip there is? Some of our top lady shooters and some very good male shooters have very noticeable muzzle flip, but also have very good control of the gun. I look at them as having very good recoil management.

[Jake Di Vita]

I think in general the less the gun moves the better.

Sure more strength is almost never bad, it's just a matter of if the time used for that will achieve better results if focused elsewhere. If you are very weak then yes you probably should make that a main focus and you will reap large benefits from it, but if you already are reasonably strong and have good control over the gun, follow that triage concept and eliminate the thing giving you the biggest issue.

[CHA-LEE]

It comes down to shooting style and speed of shooting. Once the on target splits get in the low .20's the weak "let it flop around like a rainbow trout" grip pressure starts to fail. There are some very good shooters that rarely shoot faster than .25 splits. For them a weaker grip pressure and simply waiting for the front sight to return after and excessive muzzle flip is good enough. But if they have to rip some splits they are screwed. Once again this is part of having more tools in the tool box situation. Gripping the gun with a lot of pounds of pressure allows me to rip off .12 - .15 splits on command AND hit what I am aiming at.

[CHA-LEE]

.

Edited December 31, 2015 by CHA-LEE

[obsessiveshooter]

CHA-LEE, would you maybe consider bringing that dyno with you to the Bristlecone match, and let some people try it? I've always how my grip would measure. You can even make fun of me if it's weak.

[CHA-LEE]

Sure

[G-ManBart]

Pretty much all the important points have been covered, but one thing hasn't been mentioned. If you really want to max out your ability as far as having the gun track flat, and accurately, you can't mess around shooting different guns, or different loads because it will completely mess up your timing.

Some folks shoot different ammo in practice compared to matches, or different ammo at local matches compared with major matches....usually to save money, but all that does is mess up any timing you've developed. Maybe the worst combination is the folks that load to just barely make power factor for local matches, and practice...you know, to save on powder. Then they crank up the load 5-10PF over power factor for a major match and suddenly the gun is all over the place, and doesn't feel right....that's payback.

Granted, lots of us like to shoot different Divisions,, and we all like to save money, but before a big match you want to make sure you stick to just one gun/load combo for a while.

I don't buy it. Timing isn't what you are looking for. Stoeger uses completely different practice ammo. He doesn't even make his own match ammo, and doesn't even know the load of his practice stuff.

It's this kind of nonsense that keeps me away from forums and why I'm only seeing this 10 months later. I don't think we can apply the standards for Ben to the vast majority of USPSA shooters. Who's to say Ben wouldn't be even better if he used ammo that was all consistent? I'm close friends with a guy who has loaded a bunch of Ben's ammo in the past years, so I'm pretty familiar with what he's been doing...just sayin'

If you really don't buy it, rather than use Ben as a model, why not try something factual?

Why not do a test for yourself? Pick a couple of standard drills that you know your par times for. Shoot them with the same load for a couple of thousand rounds. Then use a batch of ammo that's 10PF higher than your normal load, and run those drills on the timer again. If your times aren't clearly slower with the different ammo you're probably not good enough for anybody to be worried about at major matches.

Edited January 4, 2016 by G-ManBart

[Wesquire]

Pretty much all the important points have been covered, but one thing hasn't been mentioned. If you really want to max out your ability as far as having the gun track flat, and accurately, you can't mess around shooting different guns, or different loads because it will completely mess up your timing.

Some folks shoot different ammo in practice compared to matches, or different ammo at local matches compared with major matches....usually to save money, but all that does is mess up any timing you've developed. Maybe the worst combination is the folks that load to just barely make power factor for local matches, and practice...you know, to save on powder. Then they crank up the load 5-10PF over power factor for a major match and suddenly the gun is all over the place, and doesn't feel right....that's payback.

Granted, lots of us like to shoot different Divisions,, and we all like to save money, but before a big match you want to make sure you stick to just one gun/load combo for a while.

I don't buy it. Timing isn't what you are looking for. Stoeger uses completely different practice ammo. He doesn't even make his own match ammo, and doesn't even know the load of his practice stuff.

It's this kind of nonsense that keeps me away from forums and why I'm only seeing this 10 months later. I don't think we can apply the standards for Ben to the vast majority of USPSA shooters. Who's to say Ben wouldn't be even better if he used ammo that was all consistent? I'm close friends with a guy who has loaded a bunch of Ben's ammo in the past years, so I'm pretty familiar with what he's been doing...just sayin'

If you really don't buy it, rather than use Ben as a model, why not try something factual?

Why not do a test for yourself? Pick a couple of standard drills that you know your par times for. Shoot them with the same load for a couple of thousand rounds. Then use a batch of ammo that's 10PF higher than your normal load, and run those drills on the timer again. If your times aren't clearly slower with the different ammo you're probably not good enough for anybody to be worried about at major matches.

If you think timing is the answer, you are quite frankly a moron. You shoot what you see, not by your timing.

[motosapiens]

If you think timing is the answer, you are quite frankly a moron. You shoot what you see, not by your timing.

not so sure I would agree entirely with you. I don't think gmanbart was saying timing is the answer, but it certainly seems to me that by practicing with a particular gun and load that I can start to anticipate when i will see enough to break the shot confidently so i can start sending the signal to squeeze the trigger a little earlier.

Edited January 4, 2016 by motosapiens

[obsessiveshooter]

Yes, it seems settled to me that 10 higher PF = more muzzle rise= more time to settle front sight = longer splits. Disagreement about this is nothing to get angry over though.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

[toothguy]

If you think timing is the answer, you are quite frankly a moron. You shoot what you see, not by your timing.

When or how soon you can see an acceptable sight picture is going to based on the timing of the gun. The timing of the gun is going to vary on the load, spring weights, gun weight ect. and how firm you grip the gun. CHA-LEE has an advantage of strong grip strength. It's an advantage because this grip strength enables CHA-LEE to flatten the timing of the gun, firing shots sooner because the sights are back on target sooner.

[GunBugBit]

If you think timing is the answer, you are quite frankly a moron. You shoot what you see, not by your timing.

Don't think you need to stoop to personal insults. Not cool.