Club loss - Western Pennsylvania Section

[vluc]

With regret, the Western Pennsylvania Section announces two clubs going on hiatus (we hope) from USPSA shooting.

McDonald Sportsmens Club (outside of Pittsburgh, PA), which hosted several Section matches, is immediately suspending their USPSA program due to a lack of help and assistance from USPSA shooters. Help has dwindled down to three people, with neighboring club RO's coming in to provide RO support. Matches usually show 65-75 guns, no reason people can't be helping.

Likewise, at the end of this shooting season, Gem City Gun Club in Erie, PA, host of four section matches, is also suspending their program due to lack of help and unwillingness of shooters to step up. Their current match director has found himself doing it all, and that can only last so long. That time has arrived.

This is the issue that needs to be addressed in USPSA. We have clubs, just not enough people to do the work. Everyone wants to shoot, few want to help. We have found ourselves with a core group of people who do too much of the work at too many of the clubs, not only for local matches, but Section & Area matches as well.

Hopefully, some people will step up when they see what they have lost. One can only hope....

Edited June 22, 2014 by vluc

[Vlad]

Good luck man, there is a bit of the same story in our neck of the woods.

[MarkCO]

Very sad. I don't think it is isolated. It is a systemic problem seen by many clubs. Our section has taken to actually inserting some information into our new shooter course stressing that this is a volunteer run sport and that everyone has to help for clubs to succeed long term.

Best of luck in getting it turned around for your section.

[vluc]

So we see the latest update in club casualties. Gem City in Erie, host to 4 Section Championship matches, will stop USPSA shooting in November unless someone from the club steps up.

WPA shooters - STEP UP!!! These are your clubs that are closing, your opportunities for shooting that are going away, all because of YOUR lack of involvement in helping. YOU, and only you, can make a difference.

Give me a few hours on a Saturday morning for setup, RO's - 38 active CRO/RO's in WPA and we get less than 6 that do anything. Come on, people!! Sunday, help work a match, run a squad, stay an hour to help tear down a stage. One target - tear it down. I'll take it - that's one less the rest of us have to do.

Your choices, always your choices. You can get involved, help keep the clubs alive and the sport active in your area, or you can go to your local indoor range and punch paper, thinking about what could have been if only someone stepped up. Why don't you make YOU the oone who steps up.

A handful of us can only carry things so far, and we are getting tired and burned out.

[bajaholic]

Just a suggestion, but maybe it is time to "surcharge" the shooters of the day of the competitions to pay the people that are willing to give their time and/or hire part time people to help in setting up and taking down the course.

My suggestion would be a charge of $10/shooter, by your numbers that would equate to $700+/ per day. Split 2-4 ways, that is a handsome pay for the few that could easily do the job. The total day is what 4-6 hours for the normal shooting day?

Another twist to the problem could be: suggest/offer the positions to the local high school students, this would help 2 fold, Getting younger people involved in the sport and some money to teach them the ropes and show the good side of our sport, rather than the doom and gloom. And 2nd to further participation, a % of the money to go into a fund to help these kids pay for equipment if they want to become more involved.

I would think the more that would be introduced, the easier it would get people to get involved as well as helping with a short term problem of current burn out by the current members.

[CHA-LEE]

Just a suggestion, but maybe it is time to "surcharge" the shooters of the day of the competitions to pay the people that are willing to give their time and/or hire part time people to help in setting up and taking down the course.

My suggestion would be a charge of $10/shooter, by your numbers that would equate to $700+/ per day. Split 2-4 ways, that is a handsome pay for the few that could easily do the job. The total day is what 4-6 hours for the normal shooting day?

Another twist to the problem could be: suggest/offer the positions to the local high school students, this would help 2 fold, Getting younger people involved in the sport and some money to teach them the ropes and show the good side of our sport, rather than the doom and gloom. And 2nd to further participation, a % of the money to go into a fund to help these kids pay for equipment if they want to become more involved.

I would think the more that would be introduced, the easier it would get people to get involved as well as helping with a short term problem of current burn out by the current members.

Screw that.......... Make the "I want to be a deadbeat consumer shooter" Fee and additional $50 on top of the normal match fee. That is the only way to force the "Consumers" into being "Volunteers". If you make the fee only $10 then everyone would simply pay an additional ten bucks to be a complete lazy ass and expect everyone else to cater to them.

[Sarge]

Just a suggestion, but maybe it is time to "surcharge" the shooters of the day of the competitions to pay the people that are willing to give their time and/or hire part time people to help in setting up and taking down the course.

My suggestion would be a charge of $10/shooter, by your numbers that would equate to $700+/ per day. Split 2-4 ways, that is a handsome pay for the few that could easily do the job. The total day is what 4-6 hours for the normal shooting day?

Another twist to the problem could be: suggest/offer the positions to the local high school students, this would help 2 fold, Getting younger people involved in the sport and some money to teach them the ropes and show the good side of our sport, rather than the doom and gloom. And 2nd to further participation, a % of the money to go into a fund to help these kids pay for equipment if they want to become more involved.

I would think the more that would be introduced, the easier it would get people to get involved as well as helping with a short term problem of current burn out by the current members.

Screw that.......... Make the "I want to be a deadbeat consumer shooter" Fee and additional $50 on top of the normal match fee. That is the only way to force the "Consumers" into being "Volunteers". If you make the fee only $10 then everyone would simply pay an additional ten bucks to be a complete lazy ass and expect everyone else to cater to them.

Got a chuckle at first and thought that a bit cynical but after I thought more about it you are probably right. Our club used to have a $200 buy out option instead of working just 8 meazely hours to become a member. So many people were paying it that we were running out of workers! I would be willing to bet if we made it a thousand bucks people would pay it instead of working at all. VERY SAD!! We ended up dropping the option and requiring the work

[justaute]

The club at which I used to shoot in northwest Dallas had a policy of No-MD, No Match approach. In short, a calendar of matches is accessible online and people had to volunteer to MD; I would go a step further with the No-MD, No-volunteers then No Match method. All with three days in advance.

Just a suggestion, but maybe it is time to "surcharge" the shooters of the day of the competitions to pay the people that are willing to give their time and/or hire part time people to help in setting up and taking down the course.

My suggestion would be a charge of $10/shooter, by your numbers that would equate to $700+/ per day. Split 2-4 ways, that is a handsome pay for the few that could easily do the job. The total day is what 4-6 hours for the normal shooting day?

Another twist to the problem could be: suggest/offer the positions to the local high school students, this would help 2 fold, Getting younger people involved in the sport and some money to teach them the ropes and show the good side of our sport, rather than the doom and gloom. And 2nd to further participation, a % of the money to go into a fund to help these kids pay for equipment if they want to become more involved.

I would think the more that would be introduced, the easier it would get people to get involved as well as helping with a short term problem of current burn out by the current members.

Screw that.......... Make the "I want to be a deadbeat consumer shooter" Fee and additional $50 on top of the normal match fee. That is the only way to force the "Consumers" into being "Volunteers". If you make the fee only $10 then everyone would simply pay an additional ten bucks to be a complete lazy ass and expect everyone else to cater to them.

Edited June 24, 2014 by justaute

[Sandbagger123]

Just a suggestion, but maybe it is time to "surcharge" the shooters of the day of the competitions to pay the people that are willing to give their time and/or hire part time people to help in setting up and taking down the course.

My suggestion would be a charge of $10/shooter, by your numbers that would equate to $700+/ per day. Split 2-4 ways, that is a handsome pay for the few that could easily do the job. The total day is what 4-6 hours for the normal shooting day?

Another twist to the problem could be: suggest/offer the positions to the local high school students, this would help 2 fold, Getting younger people involved in the sport and some money to teach them the ropes and show the good side of our sport, rather than the doom and gloom. And 2nd to further participation, a % of the money to go into a fund to help these kids pay for equipment if they want to become more involved.

I would think the more that would be introduced, the easier it would get people to get involved as well as helping with a short term problem of current burn out by the current members.

Screw that.......... Make the "I want to be a deadbeat consumer shooter" Fee and additional $50 on top of the normal match fee. That is the only way to force the "Consumers" into being "Volunteers". If you make the fee only $10 then everyone would simply pay an additional ten bucks to be a complete lazy ass and expect everyone else to cater to them.

Got a chuckle at first and thought that a bit cynical but after I thought more about it you are probably right. Our club used to have a $200 buy out option instead of working just 8 meazely hours to become a member. So many people were paying it that we were running out of workers! I would be willing to bet if we made it a thousand bucks people would pay it instead of working at all. VERY SAD!! We ended up dropping the option and requiring the work

Then you use that money to hire folks that want to work. Win win for everyone. Relying on volenteers seems to be a lost cause. People might volenteers for children and animals, setup and misc, not so much

Edited June 23, 2014 by Sandbagger123

[PKT1106]

Vince- sorry to hear about the clubs.

Can't pay people to work, need insurance, W-4s and all the business stuff. You can probably do it for a while, but, eventually, someone at the club (probably a fudd) will complain about it to the wrong person, then the city/county will step in.

Edited June 23, 2014 by PKT1106

[Steve J]

It's the same story everywhere. 3-4 people do it all... if that.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Steve J

[KLR]

Here it is the same. It's all done by 2-3 dedicated people. There is rarely anyone volunteering to help especially on a consistent basis. There have even been times everyone boogie without staying the extra 15 mind to help tear down. I see this with USPSA, 3 Gun, and steel challenge. We have talked about charging extra for shooters that won't help but that will solve nothing. We really need more people to step up plain and simple!

[jester121]

hire part time people to help in setting up and taking down the course.

We get this sage advice about every month from the wise old timers at our club, and the next time I hear it I'm going to have to smack someone with a pepper popper. Around here we'd get laughed at offering teenagers $15 or $20 an hour to actually perform manual labor -- it's too hard to carry props around while texting with their friends (setting aside all the legal/tax/insurance issues).

Problem is, most of the guys doing all the work are too nice and polite to get in people's face and tell them what work needs to get done, and to go do it. We've been fortunate to get a good influx of new guys who get it, and as we train them on the importance of pitching in we hope the ideas will take root and spread. If not we'll go with the enhanced belligerence tactics and see how that goes. I'm not above confrontation, guilt trips, or public shaming to get the work done.

[BritinUSA]

How are these matches being run?

Do people just show up and when there are enough for a squad then they start shooting and leave when they are done or is there a sign up time and then all competitors start on a separate stage at the same time ?

If the first method is what us being used then you may want to switch to the alternate method. The benefit is that everyone arrives at a fixed time and then they can tear down their last stage when they have shot it.

[Zoomy]

It's hard trying to motivate people to pitch in. My idea may have been tried but I think a raffle based on working stage setup might work. A day and time are set and workers need to arrive within 15 minutes of setup time. They sign in and after setup is complete they are given a raffle ticket to sign and it is put into a lock box. The names of people who worked are posted to keep everyone honest. At the end of the season or year names are drawn and prizes are awarded. Prizes should be substantial enough to generate participation. Guns, optics, and associated components can be offered. To pay for the prizes, charge an extra dollar or two and offer advertising to local gun shops and sporting goods stores in exchange for prize donations. As an added incentive workers shoot for free.

[Vlad]

I've been thinking about the notion that certain type of help shoots for free myself. I'm not technically paying them so I can worry less about the legal bits, and it does provide a small incentive, or more realistically a small reward because people who want to help would do so without the incentive.

[BritinUSA]

Discounts for setup are common in Colorado, it seems to work well though at times the setup help is small (work issues may keep people away at times).

Ensuring that everyone tears down their last stage will help as well. 12 people can tear down even the most complex stage in just a few minutes of effort.

Edited June 24, 2014 by BritinUSA

[Sandbagger123]

I've been thinking about the notion that certain type of help shoots for free myself. I'm not technically paying them so I can worry less about the legal bits, and it does provide a small incentive, or more realistically a small reward because people who want to help would do so without the incentive.

In our club those that come setup the day before shoot for free. Still difficult to get people. The question people ask themselves is, is it better to pay the match fee or spend 3 - 4 hours helping setup. By the amount of participation I have seen, the answer is obvious

[Vlad]

We setup the same day we shoot, so it might work for us because you are planing to be there anyway, instead of a separate trip.

[chaosshooter00]

We ask our set up crew to pay 5.00 to cover the range fees and we pay their classifiers. It would be great if it were more than four people at any one time, especially when it's 110 in AZ. Fortunately, one of our neighbor clubs, that brings more shooters than our club has members, always at least tear down and stack the stages so we can put them away after. I won't force people to do things and refuse to give exemptions for monetary gain, so I will continue to do all I can to keep my club alive and matches running. There has been more than one occasion where I didn't shoot in order to make it enjoyable for others and hopefully get them to come back, so far, so good. As a side note, when my core group goes to another club, we always try to help tear down and put away stages. I may never shoot a match out East, but I hate to here we lost any more clubs. Hopefully those guys can rectify the problem.

[vluc]

How are these matches being run?

Do people just show up and when there are enough for a squad then they start shooting and leave when they are done or is there a sign up time and then all competitors start on a separate stage at the same time ?

If the first method is what us being used then you may want to switch to the alternate method. The benefit is that everyone arrives at a fixed time and then they can tear down their last stage when they have shot it.

The second. Matches at all our clubs are set up on Saturday. If enough people and time permits, they shoot then. Sunday, 830 reg 900 start. We usually have half the crowd shoot twice. May have to start a tear the last stage down routine. See how many shoot a second gun....

[aandabooks]

I went to help setup this past month. It was the first time I had done so with the outdoor matches. I brought my son and there were 8 of us to setup 6 stages. Took about 3 hours. I got to shoot the match for $5 the next day.

Volunteering is down across alot of groups. I'm heavily involved in scouts and summer baseball. For years there have been a few of us that stepup for leadership in these groups and others that can never find time to help. All kinds of excuses but they're the first to start complaining when quality slips at all. Volunteering seems to be a real problem with the 30-50 year old generation.

[bobert1]

... but they're the first to start complaining when quality slips at all.

SO TRUE. My skin just wasn't thick enough for the pay so no more MD for me. I do help setup even when I don't plan on shooting, because if I do, I want it to be there.

Edited June 24, 2014 by bobert1

[Jim Norman]

We set up on match day. We start at 7:00 - 8:00 and open onsite registration immediately. We send out a request for stages to our shooters usually a week prior. Pre-registration is opened 10 days in advance of the match. We set up squads that are to shoot and stay together all day. They are self running with embedded ROs. Our squads are usually 10-15 in size. We only allow one gun per shooter, with between 70 and 90 shooters we don't have sufficient time to run through more than one time.

Over the years our core group has added people and had people move away. New people are made to feel welcome. We consider this to be 'OUR' match not 'A' match. Many people here think of the match in these terms. Often people show up as a group that is a squad unto itself. Many times one member of their group will have designed a stage and as a group they build it.

As I said we start the build as soon as people get to the range. No one shoots until the match is totally on the ground. At the end of the day each squad tears down their final stage. On rare occasion we may have to tear down two stages if we have a low turn out.

New shooters are put with good solid shooters and well run squads in an effort to bring them into the fold. We try very hard to make people feel welcome. If someone has an idea for a stage, we tell them get it to us even if it is drawn in crayon on a place mat. The only changes we make are for rules and safety.

I suppose what I am saying is that getting the shooters to take ownership of the match is what find works. Having a club management that is supportive of competitive shooting and action shooting.

Summing it up. We ASK for volunteers. We THAN THEM. We feel paying people who build by comping their fees could easily exacerbate the lack of help situation. You comp the first 10 that show up? The first 10 that work? How do you define work? Next we have the people that for whatever reason couldn’t get there in time to get comped, so do they do the ‘right thing’ and work anyway? Or do they take the position that since there are paid builders, they can sit back and relax? We feel that building a larger and deeper cadre of designers, builders, ROs, and general help is the way to keep the match going and growing. Someday I’ll retire as there will arise people that will step up to take over. It may be that some of our senior stage will age out or move, but we are confident that the people that want this match will want it bad enough to run it.

Already we have a couple instances each year where the top tier is away at a major match and the match does go on. We have an indoor 4 stage practice match that we used to run and is now completely run by a new group that stepped up when the earlier group found themselves time constrained. Like I have stressed many times, ASK, don’t assume that people know you expect them to step up, ASK them. And then THANK THEM!

We set up on match day. We start at 7:00 - 8:00 and open onsite registration immediately. We send out a request for stages to our shooters usually a week prior. Pre-registration is opened 10 days in advance of the match. We set up squads that are to shoot and stay together all day. They are self running with embedded ROs. Our squads are usually 10-15 in size. We only allow one gun per shooter, with between 70 and 90 shooters we don't have sufficient time to run through more than one time.

Over the years our core group has added people and had people move away. New people are made to feel welcome. We consider this to be 'OUR' match not 'A' match. Many people here think of the match in these terms. Often people show up as a group that is a squad unto itself. Many times one member of their group will have designed a stage and as a group they build it.

As I said we start the build as soon as people get to the range. No one shoots until the match is totally on the ground. At the end of the day each squad tears down their final stage. On rare occasion we may have to tear down two stages if we have a low turn out.

New shooters are put with good solid shooters and well run squads in an effort to bring them into the fold. We try very hard to make people feel welcome. If someone has an idea for a stage, we tell them get it to us even if it is drawn in crayon on a place mat. The only changes we make are for rules and safety.

I suppose what I am saying is that getting the shooters to take ownership of the match is what find works. Having a club management that is supportive of competitive shooting and action shooting.

Summing it up. We ASK for volunteers. We THAN THEM. We feel paying people who build by comping their fees could easily exacerbate the lack of help situation. You comp the first 10 that show up? The first 10 that work? How do you define work? Next we have the people that for whatever reason couldn’t get there in time to get comped, so do they do the ‘right thing’ and work anyway? Or do they take the position that since there are paid builders, they can sit back and relax? We feel that building a larger and deeper cadre of designers, builders, ROs, and general help is the way to keep the match going and growing. Someday I’ll retire as there will arise people that will step up to take over. It may be that some of our senior stage will age out or move, but we are confident that the people that want this match will want it bad enough to run it.

Already we have a couple instances each year where the top tier is away at a major match and the match does go on. We have an indoor 4 stage practice match that we used to run and is now completely run by a new group that stepped up when the earlier group found themselves time constrained. Like I have stressed many times, ASK, don’t assume that people know you expect them to step up, ASK them. And then THANK THEM!

[Sarge]

Set up day prior. If you help set up you shoot for free on Sunday. I was getting a few guys here and there in addition to my 2 regular crew. Then I added a raffle for a gun at the end of the season for set up help. Now I am getting about 7-10 to help set up. Right or wrong it's worth it to me to get the help needed to put on a quality match. The last MD got virtually no help so he gave up two weeks before the next match. I stepped in and struggled with the same thing for a match or two until I tried to form a core group to run things but it still usually boiled down to two or three max on set up day. With the incentives this year it has gotten better.