more participation @ big matches? Just an observation

[Racinready300ex]

Tut, tut, tut, carmoney. Watch the personal attacks. Easy when you can do it from the safety of a keyboard, isn't it? Maybe learning that I'm busted up from yet another surgery has emboldened a bully gene from within?

We are discussing growing the sport and the revolver division in particular, so lets stick to discussion topic(s) while online and leave the muscle flexing in the mirror for late at night, shall we?

I believe that these are valid points concerning the growing of the sport:

1) only one reputable manufacturer is producing 8 shot revolvers in competitive calibers, which means very limited in available numbers as we see posts of people trying to find them

2) the additional costs (or initial costs for new shooters to the sport) to get setup for 8 shot revolvers, ie. new gun, moonclips, etc,

3) of the TENS OF MILLIONS of existing revolvers / revolver owners that already have most if not all the equipment to start shooting (they may only need a few more speedloaders and speedloader holders that can be obtained at a comparatively lower cost to begin competing versus buying a new 8 shot setup),

4) analyze and discuss where the participation numbers for 8 shot competitors will come from, which the majority most assuredly will be from existing competitors from other categories, so basically a zero sum gain in overall numbers versus bringing in new competitors to the sport with their currently owned 6 shot setups

5) of the TENS OF MILIONS of existing revolver owners out there, even if only one-one-hundredth or just one-one-thousandths of one percent can be me made interested in coming out to shoot a match then that is true growth

And, nope, I'm not an internet troll, I just do not post much. I do find it amusing that that particular card is bandied about like the 'race card' in politics when a 'ruling elite' - either political or a high-post internet warrior - wants to shut down anyone that will not conform to their brand of 'group think'. Sorry, but a high round count post history does not impress - nor intimidate, GASP! - me in the slightest as that is all it is, History. Also, I WILL be back on the range as soon as I can rehab and hopefully I will be able to get back into competitions, but that will depend on how well I recover from the damage that was repaired to be able to hold and shoot a firearm.

Be nice, you'll enjoy life more fully

Steve

I don't think any of your points are very valid.

1 - S&W already has released a 8 shot 9mm sense the rule change, who's to say no one else will if the demand is there? It would be nice if there were more options out there, but I don't think that's what is holding us back.

2 - cost. How much does it cost to shoot limited? Or open? Hell, go build a CZ or Tanfo for production and tell me how cheap it was. Why do so many people shoot such expensive divisions when they could use a cheap glock they already own?

3 - 6 shot guns have been legal, and no one brought them out. So how will we change that? You suggest making the stage 6 nuetral, that's not going to happen, every other divison will see to that. And I don't think that's a good idea either. So the next logical step seems to be allow 8 shot guns for 8 shot arrays.

If that doesn't make sense refer to Tom E's post. It's to late to bitch, time to embrace it and try to grow our division from here. Talking about how bad of a idea is was isn't going to help.

I was opposed to the rule change, but I really enjoy shooting my new 627. I think I prefer it to getting beat up with the major loads.

[Carmoney]

Grim, there are website sub-forums dedicated to the purpose of trolling discussions in legitimate shooting sites.

My own full name, location, and USPSA number are posted in my profile. When you express very strong opinions, yet refuse to identify yourself, you completely give up all credibility.

[ChrisC]

I didn't know being called a troll made anything personal.

[Tom E]

I didn't know being called a troll made anything personal.

Deleted to be nicer...

Edited April 4, 2014 by Tom E

[ChrisC]

Apparently after reading his response. Its not like he made fun of his momma or anything. It definitely hit a sore spot

[Grim]

Racinready300ex,

1 - Only S&W is producing and the numbers available are pretty low, I still stand by that statement. I do concede your point though, 'enact the rule and other manufactures will build 8 shot revolvers' may be valid and hopefully Ruger and others will step up, but I will not hold my breath.

2 - Costs. A little apples and oranges here in my opinion. I am referring to bringing new shooters into the sport with their existing arms and equipment with little to no additional costs. Eventually some may enjoy themselves so much that they will want to spend the money to compete in another division / more expensive division and that decision will be based on their experience(s) in what could be considered a 'starter division' with 6 shot revolver. If I'm reading your comments correctly, you are basically saying the same thing but referring to current competitors that are already involved in the sport buying or building more expensive setups to compete with.

3 - Correct, very few if any brought them out. The question is You ask how do we fix it and I proposed 6 shot neutral as a way.

Also, thanks for the constructive comments.

----

carmoney,

PM on the way.

---

chrisc & tome,

Ouch! You called me troll and threw out the 'mommy' word. Sorry but your going to have to do much worse that that.

------

To the forum members,

I still say that it is going to take more than 8 shot to grow the division. A majority of those that have stated they are going to shoot 8 shot are current shooters that are switching from another division. Just read the posts, current shooters are looking for an available 8 shot revo to shoot a match and if you read further / deeper, many of those shooters have stated that they are looking to just try 8 shot. Question is, how many of these shooters will stay with 8 shot after trying it out. Sounds like a zero sum gain, especially if they do switch back.

Yes, I understand that 8 shot is here to stay.

I also stated my opinion that it is BS and that I did not think that that decision alone would fix the problem. I also went further and offered Courses of Action (COA) that I believe could grow numbers by pulling in new shooters to the sport.

If you do not agree fine, that's ok. Instead of name calling (troll, bitching, whining, etc) and acting like pre-teen school girls be constructive and point out what you believe are the flaws to a persons logic or argument. (chris and tom, research Socratic Method / Socratic Debate)

Steve

[Tom E]

If you do not agree fine, that's ok.

You still don't get the point. THE TIME TO DEBATE THIS IS OVER. We're shooting 6 major, 8 minor. other suggestions, and I made some also like scoring 6 shot speedloader guns major at a 120 PF, got rejected.

Is there something you expect continued whining to accomplish?

[alecmc]

Anyway, back to the subject.

Maybe making some sort of exemption for level 2 & 3 matches with competitor requirements for " recognition " ?

What is it? 3 GMs in that division for a " match classification " & 10 competitors for match recognition ?

[lora]

If you do not agree fine, that's ok.

You still don't get the point. THE TIME TO DEBATE THIS IS OVER. We're shooting 6 major, 8 minor. other suggestions, and I made some also like scoring 6 shot speedloader guns major at a 120 PF, got rejected.Is there something you expect continued whining to accomplish?

Tom, I realized several post ago (I think you can tell when it occurred) there is a point that "Socratic Debate" is over and that it's time for one side to move on. I believe that this topic is now becoming di-vi-sive, off-topic, unproductive and if read by those who don't shoot revolvers, a perception of those people who are never satisfied. Edited April 4, 2014 by lora

[Carmoney]

Guys, Grim contacted me via PM as promised. I hereby take back my earlier remarks. He is not a troll.

[jhgtyre]

Okay, now you kids play nice or you won't get any supper.

-Your friendly neighborhood moderator

[Grim]

Wow tom, really? From the comfort of your keyboard you continue with the quips.

You strike me as the type that only leaves the comfort and safety of your keyboard to abusing little children, women, invalids, and puppies.

Furthermore, who are you or anyone else to say that the TIME TO DEBATE IS OVER, wasn't aware that I was living in Mother Russia. Yes the 8 shot rule is in place and the law of the land, but ever hear of contingency planning?

I have competed with 1911s and with revolvers and enjoy both. I cannot say what your passion is regarding the related topic, but mine is because I truly care about the health and growth of not only the revolver division but the sport as a whole. Moving people around within the divisions is NOT the answer, but NEW BLOOD being welcomed into the sport is as it brings numbers (future generations) and finances to the table will ensure the health and growth of the sport. Second and third order effects of this growth is that there are more gun owners that hopefully get involved in Second Amendment issues (protection thereof).

Now you (and others that want to dog pile in on me) and I can keep up the tit-for-tat all you want but I would rather have some civil discourse and honest debate or back and fourth, whatever you want to call it, about the subject at hand. If you do not like the questions or subject(s) being put forth you are more than welcome to provide constructive comments or just not reply, especially with the smart jabs and put downs to try to shutdown anyone that does not subscribe to your way of thinking. In other words, cut out the childish attacks and I will stop responding to them.

----

Carmoney,

Thank You!

---

jhgtyre,

Apologies to you and everyone else. I honestly only want to debate and discuss the growth of the revolver division, as I do have a dog in that game, as well as by extension, the growth of the sport. I'm not going to let anyone play the 'political race card game' to shut me down, or anyone else for that matter, by letting them resort to mud slinging. A smart-arsed comment deserves a response, only seems fair to me.

Thanks,

Steve

[hopalong]

Terrible how an observation of published numbers can make people dicker so much. What we (Pationate revolver shooters) had hoped would bolster numbers in our favorite division so far isn't producing much upswing in the early major matches. I showed that just to make it seen and hope that there is more participation at the club level (where it really needs to be). Yes as with most all new changes it will take a little time for the real numbers to show up. Let's just hope they do and in a good way before the two year time runs out. Since it was never intended to be an 6major vs. 7+ minor discussion to begin with lets just go ahead and close this one. Maybe later in the year when we get more numbers to compare with we can openit back up.

Hop

[cheryl]

More revolver shooters at major matches? Waive the match fee and supply a hotel room for all revolver participants

Seriously though, maybe it's just some people cant afford it to attend these larger matches.

[Tom E]

I realized several post ago (I think you can tell when it occurred) there is a point that "Socratic Debate" is over and that it's time for one side to move on.

Yes, we've moved from "Socratic Debate" to "mud wrestling with a pig".

[Tom E]

I think it's just going to take some time to see how this shakes out. By that I mean if 6 major / 8 minor is going to improve participation.

The "recogntion" thing does seem to be an issue with guys bailing because there might not be enough shooters to be "recognized" which then guarantees it's not going to be "recognized". Great catch 22.

[pskys2]

Rome wasn't built in a day. It will take several years to see meaningful improvement.

But to those that are passionate about Revo, let us put aside our ego's and keep pushing the Division.

Without all of us the Division will surely fail. If in fact the latest adjustment doesn't prove fruitful in a few years, we will need to look at other options. Whether they be rules, programs or outreach?!

I saw the changes in IPSC back in the '80's, where it went from a small close group to a large group. I didn't really like the results, as it changed quite a bit. Some for the best, some not. I know if Revo is successful that will happen here, and I'm afraid some just can't see past that threat of change. If it's not successful it will be a loss for those of us who enjoy it.

But let us not throw rounds in the dirt, Good natured ribbing and honest efforts are what we need. The BS is done, we all need to focus on being the best Revo's we can be. Others are watching, and some may even be waiting.

[Carmoney]

Terrible how an observation of published numbers can make people dicker so much.

Reminds me of when I worked in a gun shop many years ago.....occasionally a customer would indicate he needed to check with his wife before buying a gun......the standard response was, "Bring her in and we'll dicker."

Childish, but it still cracks me up....

[Chuck Anderson]

The 8 shot rule change was, is, and will continue to be BS, period. All that has been done is to shift participants from one classification to another, be it from one of the revolver or semi-auto classifications.

The 'stated' intention was to GROW the sport, most importantly the revolver division, right? From what I've read on various forums is that those that are shooting the 8 shots are actually switching from another category to try it out while those with existing 6 shooters are getting more frustrated. How is this GROWING the revolver division, and by extension, the sport? Of the 'new' participants in the 8 shot category, how many are actually a new shooter to the sport? One-tenth or one-one-hundredth of a percent?

To GROW the division you need NEW shooters. Want to attract new shooters? Its really simple - 6 round neutral stages so that 6 shot speedloader revolvers can compete.

The arrogance of the BOD is just confounding to me.... 'We want to grow the sport and will ALLOW you to spend hundreds of extra dollars (not to mention the time pulling your hair out trying) to obtain an 8 shot revolver and the associated accessories to get in the game'.

There are TENS OF MILLIONS of existing 6 shot revolvers already in the hands of the shooting public versus only THOUSANDS of 8 shot revolvers, simple math, duh. Also, there is the disturbing issue that only one reputable manufacturer (Taurus wouldn't last one year of even moderate match/practice use so do not even suggest it) is producing 8 shot revolvers which, by some strange coincidence, is a major sponsor, hmm. If another manufacturer, say Ruger, was also producing 8 shot revolvers so that there was double the number on the shelves and lowering the prices then I could see that helping some, but that is not the case at this time.

Allowing 8 shot without accommodating the 6 shot speedloader community is not even a half step or measure and is doomed to failure (yup, bookmark this so that you can make me eat crow or I can say "I told you so" in a couple of years) .

If the BOD wants to kill off revolver division then just man up and kill it and stop the wussy-footing around, man up for Pete's sake.

The arrogance of this post is confounding to me. To think that someone who hasn't shot a match in three years, I'm guessing has never been on the BOD, or even section leadership. Has probably never even run a match, since I'm sure if he had we would have heard about it by now. To make a flat out declaratory statement that a policy he doesn't agree with is BS and that the BOD is wussy-footing around. Wow, there's arrogance here, but not from the BOD.

Going back Revolver has never been a large factor in USPSA or even IPSC. Back before moon clips were popular, and the 625 was the only gun chosen by match winners. Back when COF's had lower round counts and there was no 8 shot arrays. Revo still didn't dominate and we still didn't get the 10's of Millions (I'd like to see an actual citation on that number by the way. I'm betting you're way off as far as Revo's that would make any sense whatsoever for competition) shooters coming it for Revo. Promoting Revo as an entry division is a horrible idea. It's the hardest division to shoot. Reloading your way through a 32 round course whether you're running 6's or 8's is always going to be difficult and challenging. More so if you're trying to come up with all the ammo from speed loaders. The people who shoot Revo do so because they want to, not because it's the only gun they have access to (almost always).

As for making all arrays 6 shot neutral. NFW. You want the membership to demand Revo is eliminated? That's the way to do it. And the arrogance of thinking that the smallest group of shooters in the sport should dictate the target arrays to 99% of the other competitors is also quite, well to use your word, confounding.

As for the major match numbers so far, I'm not really surprised. The new rule just went into effect Feb 1. I doubt many people have had a chance to even give Revo a try, let alone want to sign up for a major match with it yet. If I had to guess you'll see a moderate increase in the number of classifier scores submitted in Revo this year. I'm not expecting a huge jump. By next year when Smith has some 929's actually on the market and Ruger releases their new competition revo at SHOT next year you'll probably start seeing a bit more activity. We also need to hit the ICORE crowd and let them know about the change. It's not a huge group but it's bigger than all the Revo shooters in USPSA right now.

[Racinready300ex]

Well said Chuck.

[pskys2]

The Revo Nationals have listed Major 55 and Minor 58 Total 113. Only 17 spots left.

SS has 383 competitiors and 38 ro's for score for a total of 421? With 358 Major and 43 Minor for 401 total? The numbers don't match but that's a moot point.

The thing to note is the SS participation at the local level is good depending on the area, yet never bypasses the top 3. At the Area Matches it's normally a strong 4th place. Yet at a National Match, that gives no great advantage for Minor due to course design, it is a HUGE success.

The IRC is usually over 200 competitors and the first 2 years of a stand alone Revo Nationals have run just shy of 120, so far.

With consistent good Revo National/Level III matches, Revo could move up close to SS numbers at the local and Area levels given time.

If we can just keep from having the well poisoned.

[Bill Nesbitt]

. Revo still didn't dominate and we still didn't get the 10's of Millions (I'd like to see an actual citation on that number by the way. I'm betting you're way off as far as Revo's that would make any sense whatsoever for competition) shooters coming it for Revo.

The people who shoot Revo do so because they want to, not because it's the only gun they have access to (almost always).

Chuck, Here's some of the info you asked for. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson_Model_10

Looks like 6 million according to this Wikipedia article. I don't know if this is just Model 10/M&P or if it includes the adjustable sight variations or not. It does not include such as the S&W 686, Rugers etc.

[cas]

The people Revolver gained with 6+ may come over time, but the people it turned away could do so immediately.

I started shooting USPSA in 2008. I shot a lot of revolver. Any "away" match I've ever shot, I always shot Revolver.

I signed up for the Area match this fall in Single Stack. I haven't touched my USPSA revolver since July. Even though the change doesn't effect me locally, it's turned me off to the division.

Edited April 7, 2014 by cas

[John Z Sr]

I've read every post here on this thread. All I really shoot is revo, and that's because I just enjoy shooting the round gun. Yes, at matches revo guys get all kinds of "jabs" from the other shooters, but it's always in good FUN. Revo has always been the smallest Division, but we always had FUN and everyone got along. This rule change is really changing that, there are some pretty STRONG opinions both ways. I think the change was done with all the best intentions, while I may not personally agree with it. To say "get over it, it's done" is not, in my opinion, the American way, sounds a tad dictator like to me. I will not bash the change, or any one in favor of it any longer, we have idpa for that!! (yes, it's hard not to get in a dig here and there, old dog don't do new tricks!!). My plan after shooting last Saturday at the RO Invitational in Florida (12 hour 1 way drive) to be the ONLY revo shooter, is to get my moonclips loaded up to leave Thurs for AREA 6 in Georgia (5 hour 1 way drive) to shoot against 3 other revos (we had 8 up 'till a week ago). Shoot Friday and leave right from the SAFE AREA to drive home, 5 hours, take nap, then go to set up and run my local SCSA match on Saturday an hour from home, come home and score and post results from that match, then Sunday, go an hour in another direction to set up and run my USPSA match ( 1 of 2 every month). So, over 72 hours or so, that will be around 600 rounds going out of a revo, I get my revo fix. Shooting against yourself just ain't that much fun. I long for the days at SC Section when we would have a full squad of revos, from "D" class, up to "GM" all having fun together, I feel those days are over, which sucks. Maybe 8 shot will bring them back, maybe not. I will always have FUN with my revo, but most of it will be while shooting ZSA. When we started ZSA over 3 years ago, my goal was simple rules and divisions, so these type problems would not occur. So far, no problems at all, shoot 6, 8, 15 or 24 division and be SAFE and have FUN, so any other revos that may not shoot in USPSA revo division, and have no interest in idpa, you still have a place to go.

[UFO]

Back in October my cousin bought a 625 and I bought a 627. At that time there was no one at our local club shooting revolver with any consistancy. But, as time went on, we encouraged anybody who had a revolver to bring them out and see how much more challenging and fun they are. At our last match we had 7 revolvers out of 34 shooters, and now people are starting to talk about the wheelgunners, and other guys are talking about getting one. Whenever anybody shows interest, I will always offer to let them strap on the belt and do a run after the match. Complaining about low turnout at major matches, 6 vs 8, and major minor will never mean anything if you don't get them started at the local level...........