brnhp35 Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 Wish I had been able to get signed up for mississippi this year as it is always fun but 3 majors may have been my limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Question for you guys. After Area 1 I had a Revo shooter ask me about waiving the minimum number of shooters to recognize a division. I've always been reluctant to do so at championship matches. I think if a shooter says they were the Area 1 champion it should mean something more than beating two other guys. (Not referring to this year but we have had three in Revo before). It just seemed like it would be a meaningless award. His argument was that if shooters knew they would be recognized they would shoot the division. This is the same argument used at the Multigun Nationals to stimulate participation in Limited, Heavy Optics and Heavy Limited and it does seem to be working there. This match would also have been a good one to try it at because there were a couple really great shooters pushing each other to the end. I even had my 625 ready to go if the numbers had been close enough where one more would have made a difference. (That would have been even uglier than the match I did shoot). Question is, should we grant an exception to the 10 shooter minimum for a few years and see what happens. It will result in a few paper champions, but might stimulate enough growth to recognize it eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 (edited) Chuck, I can see arguments for both sides. Are we going to do the same for L-10 to increase participation? As a revolver shooter it stinks when there isn’t enough in your division to be recognized. Even if there is enough in the division there may not be enough in your class. Are we going to waive that requirement too? Might as well give everyone a trophy and a pat on the head. I still feel strongly for a special category for top 6 shot award. This will hopefully bring a few more of the holdouts over to play. I heard from one of my forum members yesterday that said he didn’t come to nationals because his 929 didn’t come in. he still owns a 625 and likely would have come support the match if it was at least recognized. Having just finished a major last weekend in second place just 18 points behind the match winner (best performance of my revolver career) I know the feeling of walking away empty handed. But there was only 1 other master and in the great words of Ricky Bobby.. if you ain’t first you’re last… I know that I have to put in more work for the next match. I don’t agree with lowering the participation standards but it should be left up to the discretion of the MD… Edited May 21, 2014 by ChrisC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubber Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 When I shoot, I shoot Revolver, I shoot for fun and would like some form of recognition if I do well. The 10 participant requirement is only when you HAVE to recognize the division winner, A match director is allowed to recognize the division if he wished to. There can be one Junior, or one lady and they will be recognized. Revo winners do not have to walk the prize table ahead of any other division and most matches have designated tables for each division. There has been times that there has been no concern if a revo shooter ever walks the prize table much less where he should be put to be rewarded for his performance. However if I wanted something off the prize table I could go buy it for a lot less than it cost me for the trip and such. I am not an Area 1 member but these are my thoughts, fleeting as they may be. Roger Davis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWP Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Chuck, thanks for hearing me out after the match. Not only was I hoping new shooters would come out, but even to keep the guys there that were there. This was my first level 3 match, and had I known about division recognition I may have switched. I could care less about the trophy or prize table or any title, I just want to see people interested in our division. Once again, thanks for hearing me out and following up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 It is discouraging being unrecognized when you pay the same as the other divisions even if there were less that the required number of shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWP Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 It is discouraging being unrecognized when you pay the same as the other divisions even if there were less that the required number of shooters. My words exactly as I left the parking lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 This is similar to the match bump requirement in IDPA. There are very few matches that have 10 revolver shooters in the same classification, so getting a match bump is nearly impossible. The only way a revo shooter can advance is via the classifier. I'd sure be in favor of some adjustments there somewhere... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheryl Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 It is discouraging being unrecognized when you pay the same as the other divisions even if there were less that the required number of shooters. My thoughts exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWP Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 This is similar to the match bump requirement in IDPA. There are very few matches that have 10 revolver shooters in the same classification, so getting a match bump is nearly impossible. The only way a revo shooter can advance is via the classifier. I'd sure be in favor of some adjustments there somewhere... Although this isn't the place for IDPA discussions, match bumps there should be completely dissolved. I haven't been around long enough to know anything but revo nationals, and the IRC in a few weeks. Western States is starting to catch on, and it sounds like Memphis was a big scene. Do we want to start discussing what it would take to run a big match, big enough to draw 100+ revolver shooters? Or leave it to the 3 matches that are doing it now? What would it take to draw those kinds of numbers? Prize table? Cash? Keep it even among major and minor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 When I shoot, I shoot Revolver, I shoot for fun and would like some form of recognition if I do well. The 10 participant requirement is only when you HAVE to recognize the division winner, A match director is allowed to recognize the division if he wished to. There can be one Junior, or one lady and they will be recognized. Revo winners do not have to walk the prize table ahead of any other division and most matches have designated tables for each division. There has been times that there has been no concern if a revo shooter ever walks the prize table much less where he should be put to be rewarded for his performance. However if I wanted something off the prize table I could go buy it for a lot less than it cost me for the trip and such. I am not an Area 1 member but these are my thoughts, fleeting as they may be. Roger Davis At a level one or two match the numbers are recommended. For level three and above the minimum participation numbers must be reached before they can be recognized. The prize table thing is not really in the book and as far as I'm concerned do it however the MD wants. But as far as that silly piece of wood, it's gotta be by the book. If we need to change the book I'm open to that. As far as changing L10, I'm not seeing it as an issue in my part of the country. Haven't seen a match without enough L10 to recognize. I'll tell you the one that's really frustrating is Junior. I hate not recognizing the high junior in each Division because only one has enough registered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Doesn't seem like we'd have anything to lose by dropping the 10 participant requirement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubber Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Does 6.2.5 mean that if there is not enough competitors in a division that the said division is deleted and the shooter may be moved to a division that is recognized. Also noting that the MD may have him shoot for no score. That sort of thing just seems so wrong and does not bode well for getting more people in the divisions needed. And I do not wish to bring this into a discussion of the rule but trying to point out why it may be hard to get all divisions represented in a larger match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Wasn't the 10 shooter minimum based on handing out a Slot? The Slot issue has changed if I read it correctly. I'd say as far as Plaques go, leave it up to the MD and broadcast it in the Match Info. Say a minimum of 3 or 5 to get a Plaque, 10 to get a gun (if any are given out). Or make it more/less and publish it that way. But I'm not sure that in itself it would help much. I'd also say a Category of "6 shot" isn't out of the question, but wouldn't be an issue unless attendance starts picking up (soon we hope). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Nothing to do with 6.2.5. That has to do if you show up at the Single Stack Nationals with an Open gun or something along those lines, or if you forget to declare a Division at registration. The relevant rules are found in Appendix 2. This is the rule that would have to be changed to allow recognition for less than 10 competitors are Level III and greater matches. It doesn't mean 7 guys can't compete against each other in Revolver Division at an Area match. It does mean they can't receive a plaque for winning their division. APPENDIX A2 USPSA Recognition Prior to the commencement of a match, the organizers must specify which Division(s) will be recognized. Unless otherwise specified, USPSA sanctioned matches will recognize Divisions and Categories based on the number of registered competitors who actually compete in the match, based on the following criteria: 1. Divisions Level I and Level II A minimum of 5 competitors per Division (recommended) Level III / Nationals A minimum of 10 competitors per Division (mandatory) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubber Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Thank you for the correcting my assumption. I still do not like it, but thems is the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 That's kind of why I'm asking. This is one I'm on the fence about. On the one hand, it keeps small divisions/categories/classes from being recognized, but at the same time it makes the times they are recognized more special. I've been at matches that awarded (level 1 or 2) classes and categories that only had one person in them. Do we really want participation ribbons? But at the same time is it fair to the guy who really did kick ass to not be recognized? We had two GM's at Area 1 in Revo. There's no way anyone can say that was an easier win than L10, which had one GM and the rest of the 28 shooters were A or lower. If there's an argument either way I'm not thinking of, let me hear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Didn't someone say that a recent Area match??? Didn't have enough Revo guys to be recognized. The MD let them know, and most of the switched to a different division. That's pretty shitty IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Why? What part, letting them know, or them switching because there wasn't enough participation. I guess I'm not getting the issue. BTW, that happens all the time at 3 Gun matches. Not enough in Heavy or Limited. Gives folks a chance to switch gear and shoot for recognition if they choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul788 Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Area 6 started out with 13 shooters for Revolver. Numbers started dropping, I switched to Limited after two local matches with my six shot against an eight shot. No way to win given the stages that were at these matches. Looked at the stages for Area 6 as posted and decided not to beat my head against that particular wall. Area 6 ended with less than the requirement for recognition. I have also not registered for the other State/Sectional matches that I shoot in Rev. I will shoot Limited until/if I buy an eight shot gun. Don't like loosing to skill, hate loosing to equipment and stage design. Paul Beck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Why? What part, letting them know, or them switching because there wasn't enough participation. I guess I'm not getting the issue. BTW, that happens all the time at 3 Gun matches. Not enough in Heavy or Limited. Gives folks a chance to switch gear and shoot for recognition if they choose. What I meant was it's shitty it came down to that because they were short just a couple of people. And the result was even less people shot revolver in that match. I think with revolver, you have to kind of accept that even if you win you aren't going to win anything as it's not a recognized division. I doubt many people are willing to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afoulk Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 (edited) Prize table policies aside, I don't see any harm in recognizing the winner of any contested division or any contested classification. Simply call them what they are. Call them "Revolver Division HOA" or "High C Class - Revolver Division" . If there's no competition within your division classification or you are unclassified, then there is no recognition available to you other than HOA. You can withhold the title of "Area X Revolver Division Champion", if you see fit if it falls short of a standard for recognition. Perhaps it's a semantic difference, but if it's clearly stated as such in the rulebook, one should be able to tell the difference. Seems like the prize table is where things get sticky. I don't have a good answer for that one. Edited May 23, 2014 by afoulk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheryl Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 If there are not enough participants to make a division in an area match, the MD could/should spend the energy to post on Enos that there aren't enough so that some might switch instead of sending out an e-mail to everybody in the match that there are not enough participants and the division will not be recognized, which caused 4 more to drop out. Needless to say, the revolver division at Area 6 was not recognized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lora Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 (edited) Deleted, not worth it. Edited May 23, 2014 by lora Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 (edited) ...sending out an e-mail to everybody in the match that there are not enough participants and the division will not be recognized...caused 4 more to drop out. Needless to say, the revolver division at Area 6 was not recognized... Doesn't this help to make the solution obvious? You have people not shooting because they're afraid the division won't be recognized guaranteeing the division won't be recognized. Seems we've heard this plenty of times. Perfect Catch 22? This also makes sense to me: ...I don't see any harm in recognizing the winner of any contested division or any contested classification. Simply call them what they are. Call them "Revolver Division HOA" or "High C Class - Revolver Division" . If there's no competition within your division classification or you are unclassified, then there is no recognition available to you other than HOA. You can withhold the title of "Area X Revolver Division Champion", if you see fit if it falls short of a standard for recognition. EXCEPT I think that if you want to encourage participation you SHOULD proclaim the division winner the "Area X Revolver Division Champion" regardless of the number of shooters. You show up and shoot and win you SHOULD be recognized. You paid the same entry as everyone else, you shot the match, if you placed well you should get the recognition. Gives those who didn't shoot in the division a chance to kick themselves for not shooting. Clearly the "no recognition unless there's 10 shooters" isn't working too well... It's self defeating. Edited May 23, 2014 by Tom E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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