gp100man Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I just drove 12 hours to a match that had 2 revos, other guy bailed to production, so it was just me. This 8 shot BS will destroy revo, in my opinion, those that don't have them will no longer shoot revo. Sorry to rant, but to me, this is USPSA's version of nobammacare, "let's pass it, so we can see what's in it" then and only then will we see how stupid an idea it really was. People that had absolutely no idea about revo shooters or revo division voted on it (just like guvmnt) it was implemented without any thought at all ( let's scrap some classifiers, now add them back) and the surprise, surprise new 929 will be the answer to all our ills (just like the exchanges) but no one can get one and they are about 200% overpriced. Is it just me, or does anyone else see the similarities here??? I love shooting revo, and will continue to do so, but Area 6 this year may very well be my last ever Level 3 and forget ever going to Nats again. I'll just stick to 6 Division in ZSA and maybe shoot 8 Division for fun with my 327. My USPSA Club (NC 29) will continue to strive to get new shooters into the sport, but let's face it, the new guys with 686's or Ruger GP's and speedloaders, won't go revo if someone shows up with an 8 shot. That ends my rant, now to get ready to spend all the time and $$ to shoot Area 6 in revo, to have what little fun is left, with whoever stays in the Division. be SAFE and have Fun guys, hope our new USPSA Pres. gets rid of this idea (hint, hint Jack) Love the analogy John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 John, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but regardless of how strongly you phrase it, you are delivering the minority position on this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lora Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 You know would have been nice? If instead of telling the 8 revo shooters that they would not recognized, the MD posted on this forum or others that hey, the match is full but I'll make room for two more Revos that want to sign up. Maybe some of the Revos that couldn't get in on the initial sign up could have entered. And if that didn't work, then tell the others about the situation and let them drop if they wanted to That sounds like a very good idea. I would have been number 9. I am however, happy they have such a problem as not enough slots. Just means more shooters and growing sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosshoss Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 John, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but regardless of how strongly you phrase it, you are delivering the minority position on this issue. Mike I have tried to remain neutral on this rule change and have stated my concerns about it from the beginning. You keep saying that the Majority want this. Where do you get this from? Because in the area I shoot the majority did NOT want this change and our area director voted against it. I haven't seen any data to support your statement and I don't think a poorly worded poll on a forum that probably 75% of the shooters that shoot USPSA don't even visit holds much water. 8 minor will bring in new shooters to revolver division, but to what degree it is to early to tell. 8 minor has also lost us some shooters. The revolver nationals might not fill up this year. The turnouts at majors are not much different as Sam posted. I have seen NO CHANGE at the local matches I shoot. Where is the majority you speak of? I hope some areas are seeing growth and more try revolver as it is still early into the rule change. BTW I have been shooting 8 minor and it does have it's own challenges. I do miss the stage breakdown challenge of 6 major, but 8 beats 6 anyway you slice it. (in the results) I wish USPSA would have put more thought into this rule and how the best way to implement it. This is not a cheap sport and I know several revolver shooters that saved their money for months to buy a 625 and now it is not the "setup" and they are probably done with revolver division. A lot of people wanted this change but I still believe that just as many didn't want it. I just don't see a majority either way. Why don't we try to come up with other ideas that will grow revolver division instead of defending our position on a rule change that may or may not make enough difference to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gp100man Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 +1 with Bosshoss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brnhp35 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I did no really see this change affecting me at all when the initial discussions were underway because in my area I was the only frequent revolver shooter. Now as the rule takes affect that has gone up to 2-3 in my area and i traveled about 1.5 hours up north and there were 5 of us. Some of this was getting ready for alabama state match (at which there were 10 of us by the way) but of the 5 at that match there were 3 8 minor 1 6 major and 1 6 minor and we swapped stages back and forth...i believe we are all about the same skill level. The cost will still keep me at 6 major until one of those once in a life time deals comes up(and i dont miss it)but i will still keep plugging away and I would like to think there are others that will as well ...we just dont all make it to many majors (for the same reasons as not upgrading to 8 minor) ..ok typing has the brain working ...making it to a record (for me) # of majors at 3 this year and if i am honest and added up the cost of that could probably have swung a 8 shot with that money instead ...eh ...more fun to shoot what I have ....going to stop babbling in circles now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 8 minor will bring in new shooters to revolver division, but to what degree it is to early to tell. 8 minor has also lost us some shooters. I'm one of those shooters. I did as you said, started shooting USPSA after a 10 year break, figured I'd go revolver because I seem to shoot one pretty well. I bought into the 625 and all that goes along with reloading for it. I didn't really know about the 8-shot minor thing at the time but had I known about it before I bought my 625 I wouldn't have bought it. I had originally signed up for revolver at the AL Sectional and Area 6 but have since shelved the 625 and bought an M&P Pro in .40 and I'm back in the production division. I'll still keep my 625 for shooting steel challenge and ICORE matches but I don't see myself shooting revolver in USPSA again until I buy a 929 (if I ever buy one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Z Sr Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 +1 with Bosshoss Yup what he said so very well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Minor 8 is a done deal. It was made clear if this was enacted it was staying, it's not "probationary or a 'trial". Isn't it time to stop whining and go shoot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) I shoot ICORE so all I did was buy me an ICORE limited gun and now I shoot it in uspsa. You can see the results of the match from this weekend. The 1 major guy came in 4th. Looking at his scores he shot pretty good. I didn't talk to him but I hope he had fun. I also suspect you will see some folks come back to Revo once the market settles down. I hate to see some of the people quit. I was one of them at one time. But I can leave the division I love to shoot and the people in it are the ones I love to shoot with. I believe if I didn't have a minor gun I'd still rock the major and have fun... At least at the local level. Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk Edited March 31, 2014 by ChrisC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Z Sr Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I don't look at it as whining Tom, I run 12-14 matches per month between ZSA, USPSA and SCSA. That does not included teaching classes on 3 ranges. I do shoot, and bring many new shooters into the sports. I do go shoot. I am not one of the computer geeks that does nothing but type about shooting. I don't get offended at anything, well maybe muslums blowing shit up in America, commies in US Government, and really fat chicks in spandex at the buffet, but that's just me, and people that don't stand during the National Anthem. So say what you will about me and all the other "whiners", but is this not what a "forum" is for??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zort86 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 OK guy's I feel like i need to chime in here. I personally think this 8 shot minor is BS. For me this put me at a big disadvantage where I will not shoot Revo at a big match. Now I am not at the high end in Revo, so if some one in my class runs a 8 shot they will bet me all day long. For example, we just shot the RO Invitational and one stage was a 32 round stage, with 4 shooting position of 8 shots each, so some one running a 8 shot would save at least 2 standing reloads if not more. Just on that the 8 shot is 4 to 6 sec faster just on reloads, now you can not tell me that they do not have a significant advantage. I am all for trying to bring mew people in to the sport, and bringing more revo shooters, but this is going to force the guys like me who can not afford to buy another revo just to be competitive to shoot a different division. If they wanted to bring the 8 shots in, that is cool but they should have created a new division, or a sub division of Revo just for 8 shots. Or, my personal opinion, is they should have left it alone and let the 8 shots run in production, or limited 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lora Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I feel like I'm listening to a welfare recipient complaining about being poor as they pull out their iPone and drive off in their 2014 new car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Here's the historical reality: The 8-minor rule change is a topic that has been discussed and informally debated for years. From the beginning, USPSA Revolver Division has never generated good participation numbers, and has been under continuous pressure of being eliminated as a result. The former USPSA president made it clear that he favored discontinuing the division. This motivated some of the serious national-level revolver guys to try to solve the problem. We saw a minor upsurge in interest, stirred initially by my revolver matches in Iowa (the last one set a new national attendance record for Revolver Division), and Sam's revolver matches in Tennessee (which easily broke my match's record). Then, unfortunately, things entered a decline, reaching a dismal participation low-water mark in 2012, when only 17 Revolver Division shooters bothered to attend the USPSA National Revolver Championship. Again, the discussion of eliminating the division became a serious topic among USPSA leadership. That is the reason why this whole 8-minor rule change arose. Not to "help Jerry keep winning" or any of that other nonsense. The 8-minor rule chance was conceived in an effort to save the division for everybody, by attempting to make Revolver more appealing to a wider group of shooters and hopefully spark an upsurge in participation. My poll on this forum, which started one of the longest discussion threads on any Revolver subject ever discussed on BE, might have been poorly-worded. If anything, it created a skew in favor of not changing the rules because it unintentionally included the "I don't give a shit" crowd in with the "NO" crowd. Despite that, the "YES" vote won very decisively, and it became very clear to USPSA leadership that there was serious interest in the concept. And so now here we are. It's a done deal now. We're not going back. Whether the 8-minor option will be enough to save a dying division remains to be seen. It will all depend on whether we revolver shooters want to keep shooting our wheelguns at major matches, where we will be noticed and counted. But this I know for sure--we have reached the point where those who disagreed with the rule change and insist on raising the whole sour grapes routine at every opportunity, are doing nothing but harm to our divisional morale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I still think if the major matches recognized the high 6 shooter as a special category it would be a good thing. They do it for lady and junior it seems with just 1 participant. It would give some incentive for major hold outs to keep their wheels spinning. Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Z Sr Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Here's the historical reality: The 8-minor rule change is a topic that has been discussed and informally debated for years. From the beginning, USPSA Revolver Division has never generated good participation numbers, and has been under continuous pressure of being eliminated as a result. The former USPSA president made it clear that he favored discontinuing the division. This motivated some of the serious national-level revolver guys to try to solve the problem. We saw a minor upsurge in interest, stirred initially by my revolver matches in Iowa (the last one set a new national attendance record for Revolver Division), and Sam's revolver matches in Tennessee (which easily broke my match's record). Then, unfortunately, things entered a decline, reaching a dismal participation low-water mark in 2012, when only 17 Revolver Division shooters bothered to attend the USPSA National Revolver Championship. Again, the discussion of eliminating the division became a serious topic among USPSA leadership. That is the reason why this whole 8-minor rule change arose. Not to "help Jerry keep winning" or any of that other nonsense. The 8-minor rule chance was conceived in an effort to save the division for everybody, by attempting to make Revolver more appealing to a wider group of shooters and hopefully spark an upsurge in participation. My poll on this forum, which started one of the longest discussion threads on any Revolver subject ever discussed on BE, might have been poorly-worded. If anything, it created a skew in favor of not changing the rules because it unintentionally included the "I don't give a shit" crowd in with the "NO" crowd. Despite that, the "YES" vote won very decisively, and it became very clear to USPSA leadership that there was serious interest in the concept. And so now here we are. It's a done deal now. We're not going back. Whether the 8-minor option will be enough to save a dying division remains to be seen. It will all depend on whether we revolver shooters want to keep shooting our wheelguns at major matches, where we will be noticed and counted. But this I know for sure--we have reached the point where those who disagreed with the rule change and insist on raising the whole sour grapes routine at every opportunity, are doing nothing but harm to our divisional morale. Very well stated Mike, utmost of respect for you, and what you are trying to do. Together, we may grow revo, divided, we must strap on bottom feeding plastic guns, and none of us want that!!! I am staying the course for Area 6, we had 8 revo shooters, last check we are down to 4, I might be the only one left, but I will still shoot revo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Z Sr Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I still think if the major matches recognized the high 6 shooter as a special category it would be a good thing. They do it for lady and junior it seems with just 1 participant. It would give some incentive for major hold outs to keep their wheels spinning. Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk Good point Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pseudonym Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) John, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but regardless of how strongly you phrase it, you are delivering the minority position on this issue. Below are all the posts I could did up regarding the development of the rules for revolver division, and the discussion on 8 shot being allowed to shoot to capacity in revolver division. I may have missed some, but it seems to me there is not a majority of people in favor of 8 shots. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9761 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=19031 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=18579 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=25235 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=35948&hl= http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=36050 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=36769&hl= http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=42936&hl=8+shot http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=43741 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=44492 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45527 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45821 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=53299&page=1 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=79484 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=95512 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=100133 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=109154&st=0 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=72652 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=134425 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=99265 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=134693 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=109154 My poll on this forum, which started one of the longest discussion threads on any Revolver subject ever discussed on BE, might have been poorly-worded. If anything, it created a skew in favor of not changing the rules because it unintentionally included the "I don't give a shit" crowd in with the "NO" crowd. Despite that, the "YES" vote won very decisively, and it became very clear to USPSA leadership that there was serious interest in the concept. Mike I have the upmost respect for you, and typically agree with you 99.9% of the time, but if you are using your poll saying the majority of people were in favor that is wrong. Just as you stated your wording on the poll skewed the results, because you did not give the option for a straight up and down yes or no vote. Edited March 31, 2014 by Pseudonym Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Why are we still fighting about 8 shot or 6 shot? News flash, it's to late it passed. It's done we need to move on, it doesn't matter any more who was for or against. And like Carmoney said we either figure out how to grow the division or it will probably die. Maybie it's already dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) Pseudonym, many of the wheelgunners who participated in those rules discussions over the years changed their viewpoint when revolver reached the edge of extinction, including me. I want to make clear that the wording in my poll potentially skewed the results in the direction of not changing the rules. If anything, a properly-worded poll would have generated an even greater percentage in favor of allowing 8-minor. Regardless of the competing viewpoints out there, I really wish everyone could at least recognize that this rule change was based on a genuine desire to improve the division and draw more shooters in. Edited March 31, 2014 by Carmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No.343 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Why don't we agree to a two year time-out before we have this discussion again? Revolver is on life support and something had to change. Let's call this the first iteration of our problem solving process. Let's re-evaluate in a couple of years. Mark your calendars for a major bitch session in April '16. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I'll give my point of view. I voted in favor of the change to 8 shot. Of the actual emails I received from members the majority was in favor of the change. Which was about 5 in favor and 3 against. Not exactly a ground swell of support either way. I know other AD's received input as well from the members. I believe most of them voted they way they thought the majority of their members wanted them to. That said, I would have voted for it even if it was 10 to 1 against. The current format was not working. The other suggestions have major issues in the way they were suggested that would not work with the rest of the USPSA rule book. I was not about to change the way 99.5% of our competitions are set up to accomodate a tiny, tiny segment of shooters. For me it came down to a decision of three options. Do nothing and let the division continue to stumble along, only being recognized at half or less of the major matches (Area and Nationals). Give 8 minor/6 Major a try and see if it works. Or kill the Division for good. For all the complaining about how awesome 6 Major was/is/still should be, the division didn't draw shooters. Not at the Local, Area or National level. At least not in my area. I get a report on all the activity quarterly in Area 1. When I say 99.5% of the shooters, I'm being generous. If you took out Classifier matches, which seem to be the time when most folks break out their Revos in the NW there were only a small handful that shoot revo. Basically I could count them on both hands. Comparing this to the Affordable Care Act where we passed it to see what was in it is inaccurate and disrespectful. This was a discussed for over a year by the BOD and put out for member comment as well. There were no surprises in it. We knew exactly what we were voting for, at least I did. If you don't like it fine. I don't agree with every decision the BOD makes either. I very seriously doubt it will change though. If it does I doubt it will be to any revolver shooters preference. My next vote, if this doesn't work, is to eliminate the division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lora Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I'll give my point of view. I voted in favor of the change to 8 shot. Of the actual emails I received from members the majority was in favor of the change. Which was about 5 in favor and 3 against. Not exactly a ground swell of support either way. I know other AD's received input as well from the members. I believe most of them voted they way they thought the majority of their members wanted them to. That said, I would have voted for it even if it was 10 to 1 against. The current format was not working. The other suggestions have major issues in the way they were suggested that would not work with the rest of the USPSA rule book. I was not about to change the way 99.5% of our competitions are set up to accomodate a tiny, tiny segment of shooters. For me it came down to a decision of three options. Do nothing and let the division continue to stumble along, only being recognized at half or less of the major matches (Area and Nationals). Give 8 minor/6 Major a try and see if it works. Or kill the Division for good. For all the complaining about how awesome 6 Major was/is/still should be, the division didn't draw shooters. Not at the Local, Area or National level. At least not in my area. I get a report on all the activity quarterly in Area 1. When I say 99.5% of the shooters, I'm being generous. If you took out Classifier matches, which seem to be the time when most folks break out their Revos in the NW there were only a small handful that shoot revo. Basically I could count them on both hands. Comparing this to the Affordable Care Act where we passed it to see what was in it is inaccurate and disrespectful. This was a discussed for over a year by the BOD and put out for member comment as well. There were no surprises in it. We knew exactly what we were voting for, at least I did. If you don't like it fine. I don't agree with every decision the BOD makes either. I very seriously doubt it will change though. If it does I doubt it will be to any revolver shooters preference. My next vote, if this doesn't work, is to eliminate the division. Thank you for your vote and support, I don't however want to ever see a consideration to eliminate the division. I truly believe the game will change over the next 2 years and the commercial market will be the driver. New guns, cheaper ammo cost, and more course/stage comparability with other players will bring it home. Now let's discuss something more helpful like comparing the cost of an 8 shot .38 or 9mm conversion from .45. How many more rounds can you shoot to start seeing a cost parity or savings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polymerfeelsweirdman Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) I still don't understand why 8 shot minor was seen as a rule that would get more people shooting revolver division when few people that are not already in the sport even own 8 shot revolvers Like others and I have said before, if you actually want more people in revolver division then cater it to 6 shot .357 magnum/.38 special with speedloaders which are far more widespread than 625's, 610's, or 627's Edited March 31, 2014 by polymerfeelsweirdman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopalong Posted April 1, 2014 Author Share Posted April 1, 2014 Thanks Chuck for your VOLUNTEER work as the Area 1 director, and thanks for the info you gave us. I live in Area 6 where at the time of the divisional rule change was going on Linda Chico was our area director. I called her and we had a fairly lengthy talk on several issues, but the issue of changing the revolver division was pretty cut and dry for her vote. She told me she had heard from several folks in different states in A-6 and the MAJORITY by a big margin did not want the change thus her vote No. I told her my opinion but then told her mine didnt matter either way as what was best for improving participation in the revolver division was the issue that was on hand. So far the bigger matches dont seem to be fairing very well. Heck from other reports on this forum the BEST REVOLVER SHOOTER EVER isnt attending the National Championships this year in favor of a 3-gun match instead. My hope is that the new rule change has an impact at the club level where it really does make a difference. All the major matches are going to fill up period. Revolver division or not doesnt really matter at that level. Some of you may be asking why l am not out there pushing and shooting like in the past. Simply put. I am still recovering from a hip replacement last fall, and now have a 7 weeks old baby girl that is more important to me in my life than shooting. Put in my position l am sure every one would do the same thing. Nobody but the area directors and office staff at USPSA will be able to tell if the change was a help, and those numbers wont be available for a while. Until then. If you want the revolver division to continue to exist get some of your shooting friends to shoot the devision occasionally 6 major, or 7+ minor doesnt really matter now. JUST SHOOT. HOPALONG / Sam Keen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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