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more participation @ big matches? Just an observation


hopalong

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Sam tell Mrs Elizabeth congratulations from me and to you as well. Baby Hopalong is in good hands.

Hope to see the MCC make a come back one day.

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I don't know why we're still talking about this but one more time, I don't understand this whole "I can't shoot USPSA now because it's too much of a gear race" argument. It always was a gear race. If you wanted to be good, you needed a 625, a nice one. Can anyone name any other shooting discipline where there are a 625s floating around? I mean, what else is that gun good for? It's not really a gun appropriate for hunting, it's generally too big for carry, it's mostly for people that want to shoot 45 for fun out of a revolver or for use in gun games, specifically, IDPA Enhanced Service Revolver and USPSA. You could shoot your minor 6 shot gun with speedloaders or Bianchi speed strips or whatever and you weren't going to be compettive. Yes, I read the story about the guy that made A Class with speedloaders, good for him, but if it was a viable option, there'd be more people doing it.

So now you have the goofy 6 shot Smith and Wesson revolver replaced by the 8 shot one. You still need moonclips and holders and an N-Frame holster, a decent action job, and a belt. Someone tell me what really changed here?

"Like others and I have said before, if you actually want more people in revolver division then cater it to 6 shot .357 magnum/.38 special with speedloaders which are far more widespread than 625's, 610's, or 627's"

Why is the ICORE Classic division the LEAST POPULAR division at major every major ICORE match last year? 6 shot K and L frames, Taurus guns, and Rugers chambered in 357 Magnum or 38 Special are pretty commonplace, but people aren't taking them out and trying action pistol with them. It's not because there isn't a place for them to shoot, it's just that those people aren't doing it to begin with. Part of it is the technology itself. Look how many relatively new shooters with say, Glocks, get into shooting and start looking at tactical videos? There's no lack of IDPA Stock Service Pistol or USPSA Production guys with kydex holsters showing up. Glocks are popular. Revolvers are not as popular.

I'd love to see a 6 shot division, I think of revolvers as 6 shot guns, but the Revo division was already dead so I didn't really care what they tried. I've talked to people that are shooting USPSA this year in revolver who were not last year, and they are excited to bust out their 627s.

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CONGRATULATINOS PAPPY HOP A LONG! Raising that little girl is the most important job of your life.

As for seeing results in Revo, folks it will take a couple of years. Unless someone wants to put up a Bounty of some kind for Revo.

Put big money on the top of the list and Revo's will come out of the woodwork, Unfortunately it wouldn't translate into good health for the Division.

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Mozel Tof, Hop!!!!! Was not aware of the addition, thought your absence was all due to your surgery. And presented like a true southern gentleman.

Cd662 - for me, regardless of which caliber of 6 shooter, the 8 sot gun compliments, plays better, and is more palatable to the course we play on, and to the majority of fellow competitors on the squad with semi autos. I see it as we the revolvers are guest, newcomers, plebes, entered apprentice or whatever term is more palatable, but semi autos started this organization and I am pleased they gave revolvers a place to build from. And I am pleased to have a piece of kit that enables me and newer shooters to beat many semiauto shooters at their own game, without any accommodations, I may be disabled but I don't want to force them to put a ramp on their course just for me.

Edited by lora
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I can tell you that out here in the southwest, Mesa, AZ area, the revolver has seen an increase in the numbers.........I, for one, never shot Revo, and I started the IPSC/USPSA thing back in 1988, and a few months ago, bought a 627 from a friend just so I could shoot Revo in USPSA because of the 8 round minor rule. I have started to shoot some ICORE with it, and recently bought a 625 for the IDPA ESR division. I just want to get better with the Revo. I run a single stack 1911 match out here every year, this was year 12, and last year we added a Revo day to the match.....granted those shooters shot with the Staff on Friday, but I capped the Revolver shooters at 30 and I could have easily had 50+..........this year we did the same thing and I capped it at 50 and could have had 80-90 shooters. We had a lot of cross over shooters, IDPA and ICORE guys come and shoot, and no one had any negative things to say.........probably because they knew going in it was primarily a Single Stack match. I will say it was an advantage to the 8 shot gun, because of stage design. We plan to do the same thing next year, but my hope is that we make the Revo part of the match a toss up for the 6 vs. 8 shot shooter.........I talked with Rich Wolfe and Mike Carmoney a bit about this at the match, since I consider myself a rookie Revo guy, and both said that is hard to do, but not impossible.

I have noticed, out here in our area anyway, that we get a lot of new shooters shooting our Tuesday steel match with whatever gun they might have owned, Glock, XD, M&P, Sig,or Single Stack, cool guy guns, etc, and they spend some time with that, and then move up to either Open, or Limited and spend a ton of money on those guns, because they want to be the fastest shooter out there, and see there name at the top of the combined scores. We have a lot of GM's out here, but only a few that you will see in the top 10 at Nationals.....we shoot so many classifers that that is bound to happen.......to me, the Open gun vs. the 8 shot revo is not really all that different........except the money put out for the gun and equipment. Of course, the Open gun is really only good for one thing.......USPSA/IPSC and going really fast, which is great! I never get into the us verses them argument.....to many want to take away our guns........I don't care what you shoot........just get out there and shoot!!!!!

Anyway, I would bet money that we will see an upsurge of Revo shooters over the next few years, at least in Phoenix, AZ area we will.

Steve

Edited by Steve H
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I won't be at nationals this year. I'll be celebrating my first anniversary with my wife. I wanted to make some bigger events last year, but life gets in the way. I'll continue to shoot the local matches, that's really what determines the health of the sport anyway.

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I'm new to this game but have always been a big revolver fan. I started with my old model 66 and speed loaders at the local match and quickly started looking for a moonclip gun. I ran across a 625 and pounced on it. Still for me this was a challenging introduction to USPSA but a lot of fun. I got an opportunity to trade a shotgun for a TRR8 while the rule change was in legislature. I was planning on using it in steel challenge. The first practical match after the change I took the 8 shot. What a blast! The awkward static reloads all but disappeared. Novice shooters can and will have a much better experience the way most courses are set up with eight if the revolver is the toy they prefer. Our club has seen an increase in wheel gun participation and competition with veteran major shooters winning over us novice minors but now they have to work for it. It's all good.

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The 8 shot rule change was, is, and will continue to be BS, period. All that has been done is to shift participants from one classification to another, be it from one of the revolver or semi-auto classifications.

The 'stated' intention was to GROW the sport, most importantly the revolver division, right? From what I've read on various forums is that those that are shooting the 8 shots are actually switching from another category to try it out while those with existing 6 shooters are getting more frustrated. How is this GROWING the revolver division, and by extension, the sport? Of the 'new' participants in the 8 shot category, how many are actually a new shooter to the sport? One-tenth or one-one-hundredth of a percent?

To GROW the division you need NEW shooters. Want to attract new shooters? Its really simple - 6 round neutral stages so that 6 shot speedloader revolvers can compete.

The arrogance of the BOD is just confounding to me.... 'We want to grow the sport and will ALLOW you to spend hundreds of extra dollars (not to mention the time pulling your hair out trying) to obtain an 8 shot revolver and the associated accessories to get in the game'.

There are TENS OF MILLIONS of existing 6 shot revolvers already in the hands of the shooting public versus only THOUSANDS of 8 shot revolvers, simple math, duh. Also, there is the disturbing issue that only one reputable manufacturer (Taurus wouldn't last one year of even moderate match/practice use so do not even suggest it) is producing 8 shot revolvers which, by some strange coincidence, is a major sponsor, hmm. If another manufacturer, say Ruger, was also producing 8 shot revolvers so that there was double the number on the shelves and lowering the prices then I could see that helping some, but that is not the case at this time.

Allowing 8 shot without accommodating the 6 shot speedloader community is not even a half step or measure and is doomed to failure (yup, bookmark this so that you can make me eat crow or I can say "I told you so" in a couple of years) .

If the BOD wants to kill off revolver division then just man up and kill it and stop the wussy-footing around, man up for Pete's sake.

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Grim, don't hold back, tell us what you really think. Not sure it was clear enough. But I do have to ask, where we're all the six shot speed loader shooters during the previous years, where they were very competitive, and yet revolver numbers remained low. This is settled and moving on for a minimum of 2 years.

I was going to suggest looking at the other topic on cost, but I see from your previous years post that you will only shoot a speed loader gun. So.......good luck with that.

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I can tell you that out here in the southwest, Mesa, AZ area, the revolver has seen an increase in the numbers.........I, for one, never shot Revo, and I started the IPSC/USPSA thing back in 1988, and a few months ago, bought a 627 from a friend just so I could shoot Revo in USPSA because of the 8 round minor rule. I have started to shoot some ICORE with it, and recently bought a 625 for the IDPA ESR division. I just want to get better with the Revo. I run a single stack 1911 match out here every year, this was year 12, and last year we added a Revo day to the match.....granted those shooters shot with the Staff on Friday, but I capped the Revolver shooters at 30 and I could have easily had 50+..........this year we did the same thing and I capped it at 50 and could have had 80-90 shooters. We had a lot of cross over shooters, IDPA and ICORE guys come and shoot, and no one had any negative things to say.........probably because they knew going in it was primarily a Single Stack match. I will say it was an advantage to the 8 shot gun, because of stage design. We plan to do the same thing next year, but my hope is that we make the Revo part of the match a toss up for the 6 vs. 8 shot shooter.........I talked with Rich Wolfe and Mike Carmoney a bit about this at the match, since I consider myself a rookie Revo guy, and both said that is hard to do, but not impossible.

I have noticed, out here in our area anyway, that we get a lot of new shooters shooting our Tuesday steel match with whatever gun they might have owned, Glock, XD, M&P, Sig,or Single Stack, cool guy guns, etc, and they spend some time with that, and then move up to either Open, or Limited and spend a ton of money on those guns, because they want to be the fastest shooter out there, and see there name at the top of the combined scores. We have a lot of GM's out here, but only a few that you will see in the top 10 at Nationals.....we shoot so many classifers that that is bound to happen.......to me, the Open gun vs. the 8 shot revo is not really all that different........except the money put out for the gun and equipment. Of course, the Open gun is really only good for one thing.......USPSA/IPSC and going really fast, which is great! I never get into the us verses them argument.....to many want to take away our guns........I don't care what you shoot........just get out there and shoot!!!!!

Anyway, I would bet money that we will see an upsurge of Revo shooters over the next few years, at least in Phoenix, AZ area we will.

Steve

Hi Steve,

Please save me a spot for Revo and SS for the next WSSSSSSSSC its a great match!

Thanks

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Iroa,

I'll spell it out s-l-o-w-l-y since spelling / grammar seems to escape you :devil:

Regarding - where have the 6 shot speedloader shooters been? As stated in my posts as well as the posts of others ... 6 shot neutral stages.

FYSA, I do not shoot only revolvers, I also shoot a Nighthawk GRP, Les Baer TRS and Custom Carry 1911s, as well as an M&P 9.

Yes, I only like shooting speedloader revolvers. As a matter of fact I just bought a new 625 JM and I plan to buy up the accessories to shoot Auto Rim with speedloaders at matches with it.

Also, in the interest of total disclosure, it has been almost three years since I have shot a match due to military commitments and multiple surgeries, five to date to be exact. Just had my latest surgery a couple of weeks ago and hopefully I can rehab and be able to recover before mid-summer to begin shooting and competing again but time will tell.

Edited by Grim
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More revolver shooters at major matches? Waive the match fee and supply a hotel room for all revolver participants

Seriously though, maybe it's just some people cant afford it to attend these larger matches.

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Grim, don't hold back, tell us what you really think. Not sure it was clear enough. But I do have to ask, where we're all the six shot speed loader shooters during the previous years, where they were very competitive, and yet revolver numbers remained low. This is settled and moving on for a minimum of 2 years.

I was going to suggest looking at the other topic on cost, but I see from your previous years post that you will only shoot a speed loader gun. So.......good luck with that.

I don't think the speedloader revolvers really stand a chance against 625s with moonclips due to faster reloading and due to power factor favoring slower moving, higher grain bullets rather than fast, light bullets.

I would almost like to see more revolver divisions kind of like IDPA or ICORE has but I am not sure that would be the best thing for USPSA since you would be dividing an already tiny division. I would still love to see speedloader .38s and revolvers with comps and optics winning something in USPSA though! Maybe something could be done like greater than two scoring tiers i.e. instead of major and minor you have point modifiers for speedloaders versus moonclips, major versus minor, optics or irons, and comp or no comp.

Just trying to think of ideas that would change the ratio of bottom feeders to wheel guns...

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polymer, once you go down that road, you have to do it for every single gun in every single division in USPSA. You'd have to make some sort of points handicap system for any gun that wasn't perceived to be "as good" as another, which is largely subjective. I want as little subjective ruling about what is and isn't fair in USPSA as possible, there's already another game that does that.

Did anyone consider that the match participation is proportionate to the amount of active shooters? There are way more active Open, Limited, and Production shooters than Revolver or Single Stack, or L10 in states where the ammo capacity constraint isn't an issue. There are way more Open, Limited, and Production shooters signed up at major matches than Single Stack / L10 / Revolver shooters, with the exception of nationals or themed matches...

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Regarding - where have the 6 shot speedloader shooters been? As stated in my posts as well as the posts of others ... 6 shot neutral stages.

This may sound good to you. But consider all the crap that went down when the BOD decided to drop a dozen 8 shot classifiers. And you think making all the stage 6 shot neutral is going to fly with the rest of the divisions? I for one don't want the stage designer trying to dumb down the stage to make it fair for my revolver.

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Regarding - where have the 6 shot speedloader shooters been? As stated in my posts as well as the posts of others ... 6 shot neutral stages.

This may sound good to you. But consider all the crap that went down when the BOD decided to drop a dozen 8 shot classifiers. And you think making all the stage 6 shot neutral is going to fly with the rest of the divisions? I for one don't want the stage designer trying to dumb down the stage to make it fair for my revolver.

IPSC has 9 shot arrays.

That would make everyone happy would it not?

Except single stack, then everyone would, you guessed it, switch to minor!!!!

And then minor revolver would no longer be relevant.

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IPSC has 9 shot arrays.

That would make everyone happy would it not?

I got to play with this doing stages for an indoor range with very limited space. 11 rd neutral seemed to work well. Kinda screwed every body (except the real hi-capacity) pretty equally. This is a GAME. In that context I think all the classes should be limited to 8 rds. It was a better game before the first wide bodied 45s changed it.

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IPSC has 9 shot arrays.

That would make everyone happy would it not?

I got to play with this doing stages for an indoor range with very limited space. 11 rd neutral seemed to work well. Kinda screwed every body (except the real hi-capacity) pretty equally. This is a GAME. In that context I think all the classes should be limited to 8 rds. It was a better game before the first wide bodied 45s changed it.

It's called IDPA,

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It's called IDPA,

Not even close... Never was like IDPA.

I was shooting while the game transitioned. My first Open 45 would today be a legal Single Stack. The game has changed quite a bit with high capacity and comps and optics...

Edited by Tom E
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Tut, tut, tut, carmoney. Watch the personal attacks. Easy when you can do it from the safety of a keyboard, isn't it? Maybe learning that I'm busted up from yet another surgery has emboldened a bully gene from within?

We are discussing growing the sport and the revolver division in particular, so lets stick to discussion topic(s) while online and leave the muscle flexing in the mirror for late at night, shall we?

I believe that these are valid points concerning the growing of the sport:

1) only one reputable manufacturer is producing 8 shot revolvers in competitive calibers, which means very limited in available numbers as we see posts of people trying to find them

2) the additional costs (or initial costs for new shooters to the sport) to get setup for 8 shot revolvers, ie. new gun, moonclips, etc,

3) of the TENS OF MILLIONS of existing revolvers / revolver owners that already have most if not all the equipment to start shooting (they may only need a few more speedloaders and speedloader holders that can be obtained at a comparatively lower cost to begin competing versus buying a new 8 shot setup),

4) analyze and discuss where the participation numbers for 8 shot competitors will come from, which the majority most assuredly will be from existing competitors from other categories, so basically a zero sum gain in overall numbers versus bringing in new competitors to the sport with their currently owned 6 shot setups

5) of the TENS OF MILIONS of existing revolver owners out there, even if only one-one-hundredth or just one-one-thousandths of one percent can be me made interested in coming out to shoot a match then that is true growth

And, nope, I'm not an internet troll, I just do not post much. I do find it amusing that that particular card is bandied about like the 'race card' in politics when a 'ruling elite' - either political or a high-post internet warrior - wants to shut down anyone that will not conform to their brand of 'group think'. Sorry, but a high round count post history does not impress - nor intimidate, GASP! - me in the slightest as that is all it is, History. Also, I WILL be back on the range as soon as I can rehab and hopefully I will be able to get back into competitions, but that will depend on how well I recover from the damage that was repaired to be able to hold and shoot a firearm.

Be nice, you'll enjoy life more fully :cheers:

Steve

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