more participation @ big matches? Just an observation

[Racinready300ex]

To say "get over it, it's done" is not, in my opinion, the American way,

I think the poing of this comment was that this rule has been passed. So we are wasting our time to sit here and fight over weather it was a good idea or not. The horse is dead, lets put the sticks down. Now we need to accept the 8 shot rule, and revisit it in a couple of years. In the mean time we should probably be doing more like UFO is doing and trying to grow our division.

[alecmc]

up to 11 revolver shooters for Area 8 in a few weeks, including 2 GMs ( lentz & olhasso )

I'm starting to see a little more buzz about revolver division since 8 shot actually, I start getting more questions about gear with new people at matches.

Hoping for the best.

[MWP]

Area 1 is in just a few weeks too, it's looking a little thin. On the other hand a ton of production shooters have been asking about a 929.

[Blueridge]

First I would like to say that I might have missed some comments in this topic because after the first 3 1/2 pages it seemed that most points of view had been covered and reiterated.

I personally do not think that the participation problem relates to major matches or the 6 vs. 8 shot revolvers. The participation at major matches reflects the participation at the local, state, and sectional matches. The reason that matches such as the Memphis Charity Challenge and the 2013 Revolver Nationals were such a success could be contributed to bringing people together for a cause. The MCC had the charity cause and the 2013 Revolver Nationals had the cause of showing that the interest was there to hold a dedicated match.

Local matches are what build the interest of the participants to go on to bigger matches, but most of the time when participation number are provided they are from area, nationals, or similarly large annual matches. Rarely are numbers provided from local matches, which kind of makes my point. Without the numbers at the local level there will not be the participation at the higher levels. There is no "magic pill" that will solve the current participation problems. From my experience there are many people that own both revolvers and pistols, and given the option between the two they will choose the higher capacity of the pistol. This is reflected also in the 6 vs. 8 shot revolver discussion. It is impressive for people to see a revolver being run in a match well, and even more impressive to see a revolver shooter higher that a good number of pistol shooters in the overall resluts. That being said shooting any handgun is a challenge in competition, and choosing to use a revolver can be even more so.

I personally use a stock Ruger Alaskan loaded with .45 Colt ammunition in competition. It is not cut for speedloaders and the trigger pull is 12+ pounds. I have competed in as many matches as I have been able, including the 2013 Revolver Nationals. My choice is not an optimum one for competition, but it is what I enjoy using. Most revover shooters would NEVER use my choice of revolver in competition, and most handgun shooters will choose a pistol over a revolver in competition. The challenge is to get those people that own both pistols and revolvers to choose to shoot revolvers in competition more often. What is the best way to do this? I don't know for sure, but like many of you I have ideas. The one that comes to mind is putting together a group of people that you know (possibly up to 10 or more) and deciding that all of you will be shooting revolver at a particular area match for instance. This would guarantee recognition of the division. In addition that group could challenge another group to do the same and maybe even have some "gentleperson" bets on the side reference to which group of individuals will place better. Waiting for the planets to be in alignment will not improve things as many who have posted want, but some simple plans might.

Just some thoughts... Carry on!

[Carmoney]

Setting up good stand-alone revolver matches is a proven way to gather interest and participation. I did that with my series of Iowa revo matches, and Sam did it with his excellent MCC matches.

Time for some other people to step up and take the lead on this. We really need several of these destination revolver matches around the country each year. Without stuff like that, the overall interest level in revo (including my own) starts to wane.

I don't think charity causes have any meaningful effect on participation. My charitable contributions are handled directly and privately. I would personally prefer not to pay a higher match fee just so that somebody else can donate the bulk of that money. It's certainly not a wrong or bad thing to do--it's just not my preference.

[Ty Hamby]

Not much data on, is 8minor better? Soon we will be able to look back and see if it is better as a whole or maybe we will ask "what is a revolver"? I suspect better numbers will soon be recorded. We may be just replacing 3 shooters with 5 showing only a net gain of 2.

Is 5 shooters better than 2? I would say yes and long as they are in it for the long haul. I just looked at last years little Level II match around here. There were 5 revolver shooters in 2013. In 2014 there are currently 12 signed up for the same match this year. +140% increase in the number of revolver shooters is not great. Its awesome! USPSA revolver is just getting started.

[Blueridge]

Setting up good stand-alone revolver matches is a proven way to gather interest and participation. I did that with my series of Iowa revo matches, and Sam did it with his excellent MCC matches.

Time for some other people to step up and take the lead on this. We really need several of these destination revolver matches around the country each year. Without stuff like that, the overall interest level in revo (including my own) starts to wane.

I don't think charity causes have any meaningful effect on participation. My charitable contributions are handled directly and privately. I would personally prefer not to pay a higher match fee just so that somebody else can donate the bulk of that money. It's certainly not a wrong or bad thing to do--it's just not my preference.

Destination revolver matches are a good thing, but I would tend to believe that those they attract those already shooting revolver on a regular basis. More matches would be better, but getting more "new" revolver shooters would have to start from the local

and state level. From my experience in competitive sports, people will not go to "major" events in a sport they participate unless they feel that they will be competitive at a level set in their own mind. Often I have found (attending events that others I practice with refuse to) that those who did not attend with me would have likely done well if they had just come and participated.

In general whatever a competitor uses at the local and state level is what they will stick with for the larger "major" matches. Therefore getting more participation at the local and state level is likely the key. Most of the training videos and clinics I have seen focus on shooting pistols, so it stands to reason that the divisions that use pistols instead of revolvers get more participants. Who really wants to start from "ground zero" in the shooting sports on their own when they can get training from videos and clinics?

Edited May 2, 2014 by Blueridge

[Racinready300ex]

Destination revolver matches are a good thing, but I would tend to believe that those they attract those already shooting revolver on a regular basis. More matches would be better, but getting more "new" revolver shooters would have to start from the local

and state level. From my experience if competitive sports, people will not go to "major" events in a sport they participate unless they feel that they will be competitive at a level set in their own mind. Often I have found (attending events that others refuse to) that those who did not attend with me would have likely done well if they had just come and participated.

In general whatever a competitor uses at the local and state level is what they will stick with for the larger "major" matches. Therefore getting more participation at the local and state level is likely the key. Most of the training videos and clinics I have seen focus on shooting pistols, so it stands to reason that the divisions that use pistols instead of revolvers get more participants. Who really wants to start from "ground zero" in the shooting sports on their own when they can get training from videos and clinics?

Another way to look at it, is there are people who shoot level 2 matches and want to try revolver. But if the sectional/Area's only have a few revolver shooters they may not see the point. So they never make that leap to revolver. If there was a big revolver match in there area, maybe that would give them the reason they need to start shooting it. And that can lead to more guys at local matches getting used to there wheel guns. And if new shooter see more guys running revolvers, they may want to try it.

I also think just one good revolver shooter at a club. Who wants to grow the sport can make a difference on the local level.

[pskys2]

Destination revolver matches are a good thing, but I would tend to believe that those they attract those already shooting revolver on a regular basis. More matches would be better, but getting more "new" revolver shooters would have to start from the local

and state level. From my experience if competitive sports, people will not go to "major" events in a sport they participate unless they feel that they will be competitive at a level set in their own mind. Often I have found (attending events that others refuse to) that those who did not attend with me would have likely done well if they had just come and participated.

In general whatever a competitor uses at the local and state level is what they will stick with for the larger "major" matches. Therefore getting more participation at the local and state level is likely the key. Most of the training videos and clinics I have seen focus on shooting pistols, so it stands to reason that the divisions that use pistols instead of revolvers get more participants. Who really wants to start from "ground zero" in the shooting sports on their own when they can get training from videos and clinics?

Another way to look at it, is there are people who shoot level 2 matches and want to try revolver. But if the sectional/Area's only have a few revolver shooters they may not see the point. So they never make that leap to revolver. If there was a big revolver match in there area, maybe that would give them the reason they need to start shooting it. And that can lead to more guys at local matches getting used to there wheel guns. And if new shooter see more guys running revolvers, they may want to try it.

I also think just one good revolver shooter at a club. Who wants to grow the sport can make a difference on the local level.

Agreed, it seems the bigger dedicated matches are the seed. But the seeds must be spread around to more areas. Takes time and effort.

[John Z Sr]

Setting up good stand-alone revolver matches is a proven way to gather interest and participation. I did that with my series of Iowa revo matches, and Sam did it with his excellent MCC matches.

Time for some other people to step up and take the lead on this. We really need several of these destination revolver matches around the country each year. Without stuff like that, the overall interest level in revo (including my own) starts to wane.

I don't think charity causes have any meaningful effect on participation. My charitable contributions are handled directly and privately. I would personally prefer not to pay a higher match fee just so that somebody else can donate the bulk of that money. It's certainly not a wrong or bad thing to do--it's just not my preference.

I totally agree Mike, I would be glad to do one here in the Raleigh, NC area. I have complete access to a number of quality ranges that would easily support a Level 2 match, with the priority going to REVO Division. If I do it, will you come??? That is the big question. everyone TALKS about, "hey let's do this, or hey wouldn't that be cool" but when it comes down to it, if we don't get enough shooters to SEND in an application and a check, the match can not happen. I WILL build it, if you all will COME.

[EEH]

John how would you set up a revo match now,? With the 8 shot minor rule..

Six shot or eight shot ?

[Carmoney]

Setting up good stand-alone revolver matches is a proven way to gather interest and participation. I did that with my series of Iowa revo matches, and Sam did it with his excellent MCC matches.

Time for some other people to step up and take the lead on this. We really need several of these destination revolver matches around the country each year. Without stuff like that, the overall interest level in revo (including my own) starts to wane.

I don't think charity causes have any meaningful effect on participation. My charitable contributions are handled directly and privately. I would personally prefer not to pay a higher match fee just so that somebody else can donate the bulk of that money. It's certainly not a wrong or bad thing to do--it's just not my preference.

I totally agree Mike, I would be glad to do one here in the Raleigh, NC area. I have complete access to a number of quality ranges that would easily support a Level 2 match, with the priority going to REVO Division. If I do it, will you come??? That is the big question. everyone TALKS about, "hey let's do this, or hey wouldn't that be cool" but when it comes down to it, if we don't get enough shooters to SEND in an application and a check, the match can not happen. I WILL build it, if you all will COME.

Absolutely, John! I'm well known to fly all over the country to shoot, and if somebody sets up a good revolver match and a bunch of my buddies will be there, I will do everything in my power to attend.

[underlug]

Setting up good stand-alone revolver matches is a proven way to gather interest and participation. I did that with my series of Iowa revo matches, and Sam did it with his excellent MCC matches.

Time for some other people to step up and take the lead on this. We really need several of these destination revolver matches around the country each year. Without stuff like that, the overall interest level in revo (including my own) starts to wane.

I don't think charity causes have any meaningful effect on participation. My charitable contributions are handled directly and privately. I would personally prefer not to pay a higher match fee just so that somebody else can donate the bulk of that money. It's certainly not a wrong or bad thing to do--it's just not my preference.

I totally agree Mike, I would be glad to do one here in the Raleigh, NC area. I have complete access to a number of quality ranges that would easily support a Level 2 match, with the priority going to REVO Division. If I do it, will you come??? That is the big question. everyone TALKS about, "hey let's do this, or hey wouldn't that be cool" but when it comes down to it, if we don't get enough shooters to SEND in an application and a check, the match can not happen. I WILL build it, if you all will COME.

Then build us a real nationals. A three day match equivalent to the MCC where some do not get the competitive advantage of running the course prior to the actual event. Of course, now, it will require six shot and eight shot classes as it will be impossible to design a course that will not give an advantage to one firearm or the other. The MCC proved that a stand alone match will draw

[Blueridge]

Setting up good stand-alone revolver matches is a proven way to gather interest and participation. I did that with my series of Iowa revo matches, and Sam did it with his excellent MCC matches.

Time for some other people to step up and take the lead on this. We really need several of these destination revolver matches around the country each year. Without stuff like that, the overall interest level in revo (including my own) starts to wane.

I don't think charity causes have any meaningful effect on participation. My charitable contributions are handled directly and privately. I would personally prefer not to pay a higher match fee just so that somebody else can donate the bulk of that money. It's certainly not a wrong or bad thing to do--it's just not my preference.

I totally agree Mike, I would be glad to do one here in the Raleigh, NC area. I have complete access to a number of quality ranges that would easily support a Level 2 match, with the priority going to REVO Division. If I do it, will you come??? That is the big question. everyone TALKS about, "hey let's do this, or hey wouldn't that be cool" but when it comes down to it, if we don't get enough shooters to SEND in an application and a check, the match can not happen. I WILL build it, if you all will COME.

I will make a point to compete in the match and make my participation a yearly commitment (barring any family commitments or unavoidable work demands). I competed in almost all of the MCC matches and to the first Revolver Nationals. I wish that I could have made this years Revolver nationals, but family and work commitments came up.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Blueridge

[TGO]

Well it's interesting to see the chatter at this point. The ones that hate the new rule before it was a rule still do. Ok no shocker but the fact that uspsa matches are setup to follow uspsa guidelines is the reason the 8 shot makes sense. If your not going to shoot anyway or use this rule as an excuse to support not going, it's not really a valid statement on the status quo.

Guys that aren't here at the nationals sitting in hotels reading this stuff will not have the same perspective I do.

You guys that wanna shoot 32 round stages but don't like 24 round stages make no sense to me? Who cares what the round count is? IDPA is killing uspsa in revo BECAUSE they are short stages that fit well with the low capacity of the revo.

Time will tell, but it was gonna die the way it was going....

Giving it a kick to see if it would help couldn't hurt.

Being disgusted with the change is just sour grapes. If you want to shoot, shoot.

Wanna see big numbers at the area or state level? Run low/cap only matches (revo/SS/prod) separate of the open/lim and see what happens! It works at the national level. I'd love to shoot an area match for revolvers only. Bet you'd see 100's of shooters....

[TGO]

Another item I need to mention is that at the western states SS match, they have over the last two years run a revo only day and each year it has grown. The match director has gotten the revo bug from this and is going to make the revo part even bigger next year.

[TGO]

I see my iPhone skills are not up to par and there was much more on this thread than I originally read.

If you wanna run a big multi day match, what rules are you gonna follow? It's not uspsa approved to recognize and award separate 6 and 8 shot. Why not instead set up the match so that neither had a clear advantage? If you run an outlaws rule event, you aren't likely to get the same participation nationally as a rules following, sanctioned event. I'd go to nc to shoot a revo only big shoot. But not if it wasn't a sanctioned event so I knew what I was getting into...

[pskys2]

TGO brings up an interesting point, has anyone ever approached their AD to run a Division/Multi Division Specific Area Championship? How would that affect the Prize Distribution? With the new Slot Process, don't think that would be an issue. Would be an interesting idea, and a whole lot of work.

[ChrisC]

I drove to Indiana for the production/as/revo state match. It was a 14 hour or so drive.

[ChrisC]

Oklahoma's most active USPSA club is hosting a state match. I lobbied for revolver to be recognized since it also has the largest monthly revo participation but was not listened to. They stuck with production and limited.

[John Z Sr]

John how would you set up a revo match now,? With the 8 shot minor rule..

Six shot or eight shot ?

I could do it under my USPSA club with USPSA rules allowing 8 shot minor, OR, do it as a ZSA match with 6 or 8 Division, no power factor, input always wanted

[John Z Sr]

Setting up good stand-alone revolver matches is a proven way to gather interest and participation. I did that with my series of Iowa revo matches, and Sam did it with his excellent MCC matches.

Time for some other people to step up and take the lead on this. We really need several of these destination revolver matches around the country each year. Without stuff like that, the overall interest level in revo (including my own) starts to wane.

I don't think charity causes have any meaningful effect on participation. My charitable contributions are handled directly and privately. I would personally prefer not to pay a higher match fee just so that somebody else can donate the bulk of that money. It's certainly not a wrong or bad thing to do--it's just not my preference.

I totally agree Mike, I would be glad to do one here in the Raleigh, NC area. I have complete access to a number of quality ranges that would easily support a Level 2 match, with the priority going to REVO Division. If I do it, will you come??? That is the big question. everyone TALKS about, "hey let's do this, or hey wouldn't that be cool" but when it comes down to it, if we don't get enough shooters to SEND in an application and a check, the match can not happen. I WILL build it, if you all will COME.

Absolutely, John! I'm well known to fly all over the country to shoot, and if somebody sets up a good revolver match and a bunch of my buddies will be there, I will do everything in my power to attend.

Thanks Mike, cigars at the registration table for all !!!

[seanc]

TGO brings up an interesting point, has anyone ever approached their AD to run a Division/Multi Division Specific Area Championship? How would that affect the Prize Distribution? With the new Slot Process, don't think that would be an issue. Would be an interesting idea, and a whole lot of work.

There were talks here on a local board in area 7 that this is being considered for area 7. One would be a low cap divisions and the other the hicaps. Alot of reasons listed, getting more shooters opportunity to shoot, magazine/capacity laws in A7 states, and most importantly staff and club availability...

[underlug]

Well it's interesting to see the chatter at this point. The ones that hate the new rule before it was a rule still do. Ok no shocker but the fact that uspsa matches are setup to follow uspsa guidelines is the reason the 8 shot makes sense. If your not going to shoot anyway or use this rule as an excuse to support not going, it's not really a valid statement on the status quo.

Guys that aren't here at the nationals sitting in hotels reading this stuff will not have the same perspective I do.

You guys that wanna shoot 32 round stages but don't like 24 round stages make no sense to me? Who cares what the round count is? IDPA is killing uspsa in revo BECAUSE they are short stages that fit well with the low capacity of the revo.

Time will tell, but it was gonna die the way it was going....

Giving it a kick to see if it would help couldn't hurt.

Being disgusted with the change is just sour grapes. If you want to shoot, shoot.

Wanna see big numbers at the area or state level? Run low/cap only matches (revo/SS/prod) separate of the open/lim and see what happens! It works at the national level. I'd love to shoot an area match for revolvers only. Bet you'd see 100's of shooters....

It wouldn't have to be an outlaw match. It would just take a simple rule change authorizing the 2 classes.

8 shot is here for good. It is a mistake that needs to be accepted. People have purchased equipment in reliance of the 8 shot rule. That fact is what saved Revolver and Limited 10 as divisions. Strader wanted them gone.

What needs to also be addressed is the competitive advantage people shooting the single stack get over those that do not or can't. A national championship should be decided on a "flat table".

Anyone with inside knowledge of the stages would also have an advantage as to which gun to use. You can guess that it is 8 round oriented but one traveling across the country shouldn't be required to bring 2 guns and ammo to make a decision that those with inside knowledge would already have.

The best solution would be a stand apart Revolver nationals and a rule change which, unfortunately, bifurcates the few revolver shooters there are.

I am sure those benefiting from the current situation do not see a problem

Edited May 4, 2014 by underlug

[Carmoney]

I shot the Single Stack yesterday, and I believe it created a competitive DISadvantage at the Revolver match today, at least for me. I was frickin' tired.