DQing a New Shooter...What would you do?

[Bill Filiaga]

A well seasoned Range Officer DQ's a New Shooter.

After the "If clear hammer down" command the shooter presses the trigger and quickly goes to holster and drops his gun. The New shooter immediately before he can be stopped picked up his gun.

The RO then DQ's the shooter, as the RO turns around he is approached by the Match Director and the Assistant Match director who saw the error. Both spoke out against the DQ and insisted that the shooter be given a break because he was not told about picking up a dropped gun and that he was not DQed.

The RO said that he DQed the shooter for dropping the gun before the "Range is Clear" command. Then turned to the shooter and congratulated him for his lucky day....The RO did not continue to argue in favor of the DQ, instead he let the decision of the Match Director stand and did not break out the rule book.

What would you have done if you were the RO?

Whats your thoughts on how the Match Director handled the situation?

[coldchar]

That would have been the last time I RO'd for that MD.

Jim

[cohland]

The MD and Assistant MD misbehaved badly. Had I been the RO I would have argued the point with both of them, making it clear that if I was over-ruled I would not be coming back as an RO.

Chris

[ChuckS]

Let's see:

"10.5.3 If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or unloading, a competitor drops his handgun or causes it to fall, loaded or not."

"8.3.8 “Range Is Clear” – This declaration signifies the end of the Course of fire."

So he dropped the gun during a course of fire. DQ per 10.5.3

But here is something else:

"10.5.14 Retrieving a dropped handgun:
A dropped gun must always be retrieved by a Range Officer who will ensure it is unloaded and properly secured in the competitor's holster or a suitable container. The Range Officer may, at his discretion, secure the gun himself or return it to the competitor who will secure it under supervision of the Range Officer.
Dropping an unloaded handgun or causing it to fall outside of a course of fire is not an infraction; however, a competitor who retrieves a dropped handgun will receive a match disqualification."

So that's a double. Bummer but DQ²

Where was the Range Master?

[jdphotoguy]

I'd report the MD to the USPSA Sectional Coordinator. The MD is circumventing safety rules and that should never be allowed new shooter or not.

[EEH]

Ask him which other rules he did not want me to !

RO no more at that range.

[lawboy]

I would have handle MD the timer and never again ROed for that MD. Simply ignorant and ridiculous what the MD did. USPSA publishes a rulebook. ALL shooters should read it prior to competing. If they don't know the rules when they show up, then they learn the rules when they violate them. Sometimes they earn a DQ.

[konkapot]

Agreed on the sentiments expressed here, however.........

To quit being an RO at this club makes no sense; they are desperately in need of good ROs.

I would continue to do it to set an example, particularly on enforcing the safety rules.

Many times all it takes is for one guy to make a stand, and others will follow THAT example, rather than the poor one being set.

[High Lord Gomer]

The shooter made a mistake that should result in a match DQ...learn from it and do better next time.

Same goes for the MD...he made a mistake. Help him learn from it so he can do better next time, don't DQ him forever by refusing to work with him.

[Sarge]

Ugly situation. I'm so glad my MD would never allow something like this to happen. Oh wait, I am the MD.

I'm just glad to read so many comments on supporting the rules. This game can turn deadly if we don't stick to them in regards to safety. I'm all for giving new shooters an occasional break but not in regards to safety.

I'm also glad that we have a great local pool of RO's and MD's. We all help each other run matches and I just can't see any of us doing this.

[RangerTrace]

I'm not an RO, but I would support what happened there. My guess would be that the majority of new shooters have not read the rule book before their first match and if they don't have an experienced shooter guiding them through their first few matches, they might break a lot of rules. Depending on who that new shooter was, had he been DQd at his very first match, he might not have ever shot another one. I do realize that safety is extremely important, but so is building the sport.

Now is where you blast me with "So where do you draw the line?"......

Edited March 19, 2014 by SV-COP

[leas327]

I would do what the MD wanted. It's his match.

I get the safety aspect of it and I don't take it lightly but the guy showed a clear gun and dropped a hammer on an empty chamber.

Lump me in with SV-COP, I'll go burn my RO card if it makes you guys feel better.

[Xhris]

I'm not an RO, but I would support what happened there. My guess would be that the majority of new shooters have not read the rule book before their first match ......

The majority of new shooters don't even know there is a rule book... Ever race one of your buddies to see who was faster? Can you receipt all the olympic rules of track? 70% of the guys at club matches are there to have a good time, they feed your club money so you can have practice, props, and events.. You start to DQ those guys for every mistake they make and they stop coming.

Now I'm not an RO, but I can't figure out how the RO could of been doing everything he was suppose to be, and someone was able to put their hammer down, drop their gun, bend over, pick it up, all before the RO could say "Stop"...

[Sarge]

Once the gun was dropped that was it. Why would the RO call STOP before the shooter dropped the gun?

[ChuckS]

First of all:

"11.1.3 Appeals – the Range Officer makes decisions initially. If the appellant disagrees with a decision, the Chief Range Officer for the stage or area in question should be asked to rule. If a disagreement still exists, the Range Master must be asked to rule."

The MD is not part of the process. If this match had one person acting as both the RM and MD, OK. If not, they screwed up.

What I would do would state my case per the rules. If they choose to let new competitors throw guns around, I would no longer put my self in a position of liability at their match. The safety rules are there for a reason. Once you start backing off, bad things can happen.

JMHO,

Chuck

[Poppa Bear]

I would rule based on what I saw. Why was the gun dropped? Experienced shooter has a quality holster and they know to not let go of the gun until it is fully seated and secured into the holster. The new shooter usually has something cheap and I have seen a few drop the gun as soon as it starts to enter the holster rather than hold onto it and seat it by hand. Did he miss the holster? Did it catch and pivot out? Maybe I am unusual in this respect but when I issue the holster command, I watch the gun go into the holster and wait for the hand to come off of it before I issue range is clear.

Two, how did the shooter manage to retrieve the gun before the RO could stop them from? Again I am watching the gun go in so that shooter would have to be moving real quick to even attempt to bend over let alone get their hand back on the gun.

999 times out of 1,000 I would be issuing a DQ. That 1 out of 1000 would be the unusual circumstance of the holster breaking and the gun falling through, or some other situation where the shooter was trying to do it right but it happened through no fault of their own.

I have experienced one broken holster and the shooter saved the gun from going down because he did not let go. We bagged the gun and he went back to the safety area to insert a new temporary screw to hold where the rivet broke. He then bought a better holster.

[High Lord Gomer]

At any of our matches that have new shooters, I go over the common causes for DQs (muzzle, finger, dropped gun, sweeping, ND) and how to avoid them. Had a new shooter show up late and they let him in so I did an abbreviated safety briefing for him during which I covered muzzle, finger, and sweeping but didn't mention dropping the gun.

Didn't realize he was a left handed shooter and the guys out front sold him a right handled holster. Very first time up to the line he drew his gun, went to transfer it to his left hand and dropped it. I was saying Stop as he bent over to pick it up but he still got it and then stopped.

I felt bad for him but he was DQ'd. I did have the guys out front refund his entry fee and refund his holster but I couldn't let him continue. I don't think he has been back.

[motosapiens]

One thing I have NOT been covering in our new shooter briefing is a dropped gun. As a result, in this situation I would not object to the MD overruling a dq. I know under the rules it's the same, but to me it's fundamentally different than dropping a loaded gun during the COF, so maybe that makes me a democrat or something (lol).

I'm going to have to add this in to our new shooter briefing so that people won't have an excuse.

[NoSteel]

Our club has a New Shooters briefing prior to every match where primarliy the safety rules (this being one of them) are discussed. Your doing your new shooters a disservice if you are not making this part of your match preparation at the local club level.. Rule is the rule, humbly take the D.Q. and paste targets the rest of the day!!!!

[Gary Stevens]

They chose....poorly.

[Sarge]

One thing I have NOT been covering in our new shooter briefing is a dropped gun. As a result, in this situation I would not object to the MD overruling a dq. I know under the rules it's the same, but to me it's fundamentally different than dropping a loaded gun during the COF, so maybe that makes me a democrat or something (lol).

I'm going to have to add this in to our new shooter briefing so that people won't have an excuse.

the gun was dropped during the COF

[SilverBolt]

I am a fairly new USPSA shooter (less than a year) and not an RO. First thing I did after joining USPSA, read the rule book. DQ should not have been over turned. MD was out of line.

[motosapiens]

One thing I have NOT been covering in our new shooter briefing is a dropped gun. As a result, in this situation I would not object to the MD overruling a dq. I know under the rules it's the same, but to me it's fundamentally different than dropping a loaded gun during the COF, so maybe that makes me a democrat or something (lol).

I'm going to have to add this in to our new shooter briefing so that people won't have an excuse.

the gun was dropped during the COF

I never said it wasn't.

[Sarge]

One thing I have NOT been covering in our new shooter briefing is a dropped gun. As a result, in this situation I would not object to the MD overruling a dq. I know under the rules it's the same, but to me it's fundamentally different than dropping a loaded gun during the COF, so maybe that makes me a democrat or something (lol).

I'm going to have to add this in to our new shooter briefing so that people won't have an excuse.

the gun was dropped during the COF

I never said it wasn't.

Then what does this mean? I know under the rules it's the same, but to me it's fundamentally different than dropping a loaded gun during the COF

A dropped gun is a dropped gun. We can't take it upon ourselves to differentiate between loaded or unloaded. Agreed, dropping an empty gun is safer than dropping a loaded gun but the end result should always be the same.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Sarge

[Sarge]

I am a fairly new USPSA shooter (less than a year) and not an RO. First thing I did after joining USPSA, read the rule book.

SMART!

Reading the rule book does more than keep you out of trouble in a match. It makes you a better shooter, it gives a competitive advantage, and keeps you from getting hosed.