IDPA and the foolishness

[BillR1]

Sure, cover is cover and violating cover is a PE...easy enough to say (Adulay - not singling you out, just using you as an example since you were the most recent to post). But what if one SO likes to stand here and one SO likes to stand there...giving two different perspective of the actual location of the shooter. So the same action by the same shooter will be perfectly legal to one SO while a PE to another SO (yes, I've seen this happen).

And as an SO, you are responsible for the safety of the stage. How are you to maintain safety watching how the shooter is manipulating their gun and also trying to look to see if the shooter is behind cover enough and/or if he is lifting his foot, "etc."...

Again, these two situations are not really issues with the rulebook, but are instead problems with SO training or procedures.

It doesn't matter where the SO "likes to stand"...they're SUPPOSED to stand where they have a clear view of the cover lines and the shooter.

As for the safety situation, it IS difficult if there's only one SO on a stage. If two SOs are working the stage, then the timekeeper is watching the gun while the scorekeeper is watching for cover and other PEs.

People start shooting IDPA. Some decide it's not for them, others stay. The fact is that IDPA is growing in shooter numbers and match participation. I personally don't believe they should try to please everyone. For those that find IDPA not to their liking, there are other games to play. That's the way it should be.

[motosapiens]

The fact is that IDPA is growing in shooter numbers and match participation.

Do you have some specific numbers you can post? How much is the match participation growing? It *seems* a little less popular around here, but maybe that's just because uspsa and steel challenge have become dramatically busier in the last year-ish.

Edited July 9, 2014 by motosapiens

[BillR1]

The fact is that IDPA is growing in shooter numbers and match participation.

Do you have some specific numbers you can post? How much is the match participation growing?

I'm basing my statement on the increase in the number of shooters at our local and state matches, and the speed of how fast the sanctioned matches are filling up. HQ states a number of 25K members. Some don't believe that number, but I've seen nothing to cause me to question that figure at least in this area.

[motosapiens]

The fact is that IDPA is growing in shooter numbers and match participation.

Do you have some specific numbers you can post? How much is the match participation growing?

I'm basing my statement on the increase in the number of shooters at our local and state matches, and the speed of how fast the sanctioned matches are filling up. HQ states a number of 25K members. Some don't believe that number, but I've seen nothing to cause me to question that figure at least in this area.

Cool. Glad it's growing where you are. That's a sign that you're doing something right.

[rowdyb]

Seems to have grown at our local clubs here in San Diego. Went from about 22 shooters when I started two years ago to 40 shooters and we have a IDPA match every weekend.

[CHARLES D]

That may be true. However the local USPSA Club has grown from 15 shooters a match to well over 60 a match and growing in the last 5 years. Most of the USPSA shooters used to be IDPA shooters, got fed up with the silly rules and transitioned to USPSA.

[BillR1]

Sounds like both groups are growing well. That's good for everyone!

[Howa4au]

Newer shooters tend to gravitate to IDPA as it is a better game for new shooters IMHO. The better shooters will often begin to shoot USPSA as well. Some of the sillier new rules have kept the better shooters from shooting both and they have moved exclusively to USPSA. Even so, there seem to be more new shooters coming out to the range which is a good thing for all of our sports. I prefer to shoot USPSA but I continue to shoot IDPA at my club's local matches to support the club, convenience to my house, and to shoot with my friends who still shoot IDPA. But, I have not been willing to travel to IDPA major matches anymore as I will for USPSA matches.

[Lewiston]

I prefer IDPA after shooting USPSA for a few years. I tried doing both but then I ended up with a bunch of procedurals since I clearly don't have the mental capacity to remember the rules for the game I'm currently shooting. Now when I shoot USPSA I do it IDPA style and entertain the rest of my squad.

[Howa4au]

I'm getting better at keeping the rules straight but when I first started shooting USPSA I picked up a bunch of procedurals at IDPA as well.

[alma]

Great example for this discussion http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=199500#entry2212896

[v1911]

Great example for this discussion http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=199500#entry2212896

I have to disagree. I feel this has nothing to do with rules. This was an example if a petty MD at a local level shooting match.

[dezz]

Dear Koski , thank you for being the jerk that you are and making my USPSA jump more worth while. Cheers

[Lewiston]

Dear Koski , thank you for being the jerk that you are and making my USPSA jump more worth while. Cheers

dezz

USPSA has some super nice folks with a few bad apples thrown in the mix. If you are frustrated with rules written in legalese and allow comments like Koski's get under your skin you may be in for a rough ride.

RO class for USPSA takes 2 days rather than 1 for IDPA. Rulebook is just as complex. Questionable hits will be ruled using overlays rather than to the shooters benefit. Unlike IDPA, RO's have rulebooks and will back up their calls with it.

I'm not bad mouthing USPSA but simply pointing out the grass isn't always greener.

I hope it's what you looking for.

Safe shooting.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Lewiston

[Brooke]

Amazing to me how social media has created a country of ridiculous controversy. From Congress to shooting fun we have competing factions who guarantee that nothing of value ever occurs. I, for one, am fed up with people's opinions and bitches.

If you don't like IDPA please don't participate, but quit telling the rest of us about your whining ways. Just my ridiculous opinion, but I just avoid things I don't like. Seeking to gain allies or enemies to support or dispute your personal preferences is a social exercise that I find obnoxious.

[racerba]

Sure, cover is cover and violating cover is a PE...easy enough to say (Adulay - not singling you out, just using you as an example since you were the most recent to post). But what if one SO likes to stand here and one SO likes to stand there...giving two different perspective of the actual location of the shooter. So the same action by the same shooter will be perfectly legal to one SO while a PE to another SO (yes, I've seen this happen).

And as an SO, you are responsible for the safety of the stage. How are you to maintain safety watching how the shooter is manipulating their gun and also trying to look to see if the shooter is behind cover enough and/or if he is lifting his foot, "etc."...

Again, these two situations are not really issues with the rulebook, but are instead problems with SO training or procedures.

It doesn't matter where the SO "likes to stand"...they're SUPPOSED to stand where they have a clear view of the cover lines and the shooter.

As for the safety situation, it IS difficult if there's only one SO on a stage. If two SOs are working the stage, then the timekeeper is watching the gun while the scorekeeper is watching for cover and other PEs.

People start shooting IDPA. Some decide it's not for them, others stay. The fact is that IDPA is growing in shooter numbers and match participation. I personally don't believe they should try to please everyone. For those that find IDPA not to their liking, there are other games to play. That's the way it should be.

It IS an issue with the rule. No two SO will stand in the exact same spot having the same exact view (one SO will be taller/shorter than another) - now you put their subjective view to make a call. While the rules are easy to understand, it makes it difficult to enforce evenly/fairly across the board. I'm not saying all the rules are this way, but a lot of them are. The fact that there are multiple discussions about this should indicate to the BoD to somehow rectify the situation. Just this thread there are 16 pages alone...

[Quag]

If two SOs are working the stage, then the timekeeper is watching the gun while the scorekeeper is watching for cover and other PEs.

I really wanted to stay out of this, but I am a SO in training (to support my local club, I have no aspirations to SO at any regional or national matches). What I have been taught again and again in a firm manner is that the SO's #1 job is the gun and safety. It is the ASO's job to call cover. I have SOed about 20 to 30 shooters and I find it difficult to make cover calls when I am so focused on the gun. However when the cover call is really obvious its pretty easy.

[BillR1]

I'm not understanding the issue here. MOST sports have human officials that may/may not be in exactly the correct position to make calls. Baseball umpires come in different sizes so their view of the strike zone could be different. The human officials do the best they can. Will they get every call correct? Nope. That's life.

Edited August 1, 2014 by BillR1

[IHAVEGAS]

If two SOs are working the stage, then the timekeeper is watching the gun while the scorekeeper is watching for cover and other PEs.

I really wanted to stay out of this, but I am a SO in training (to support my local club, I have no aspirations to SO at any regional or national matches). What I have been taught again and again in a firm manner is that the SO's #1 job is the gun and safety. It is the ASO's job to call cover. I have SOed about 20 to 30 shooters and I find it difficult to make cover calls when I am so focused on the gun. However when the cover call is really obvious its pretty easy.

+ 1

If you are positioning yourself to consistently make the most accurate cover assessments then you are not best positioned for job 1.

[Steve Koski]

Dear Koski , thank you for being the jerk that you are and making my USPSA jump more worth while. Cheers

You're still here? I thought you left and quit violating the forum rules a long time ago. Bye.

[GOF]

Hey Steve... You don't 'do jerk'. Pithy, yes. Jerk no. I tried to find where one of your posts might have raised his dander and couldn't. Keep on keepin' on. You have some valuable thoughts regarding the application of the Rules from your position as a SO/MD. And since no one is now going to Murphy's IDPA Forum anymore, that knowledge is likely welcome here by those shooters still shooting IDPA.

I thought dezz's post was quite a bit over the top. I enjoy your comments and Rules insights, and I'm sure that many other IDPA shooters do as well.

[johniac7078]

I read this thread closely. I don't often comment on this stuff. But I will.

Yes the rule are what they are. I shoot IDPA A LOT and like it. However, it does get VERY VERY frustrating when we are all shooting different matches because of inconsistent calls or understanding of rules. To run a good match it is critical that all the SOs agree on what will be called during the SO walk through. If the shooter is here they are in cover, it they are here they are not. etc

It is sort of like baseball, players live with a weird strike zone AS LONG AS IT IS CONSISTENT! When a ball suddenly because a strike people get upset. I think a lot of the complaints are frustration coming out. Many of us are highly competitive people and yes it does matter to a competitor if they get a bogus PE.

I actually left a match today because it was run poorly, the stages were boring (one was illegal, not that it matters at a club match but maybe when someone mentions it for future reference the MD can do better than "3 masters set it up") the SOs were clueless, ricochets on one stage were pelting the hell out of us, it sucks getting hit in the face and throat by jackets.

You need at least ONE SO that actually knows the rules and people that know how to set up safe stages. A major problem is a lack of training within clubs to educate people that volunteer to SO.

Anyway. $20, over 2 hours of driving and all I got was a lot of aggravation.

[GOF]

Brand new SOs (mostly minimally skilled MM class shooters with little experience in competitive shooting) sometimes think their Red Hat makes them GOD. That's not so. But, since the new Rule Book resulted in about 40% of the experienced SOs saying .." I'm outa here!".. this is what you get when you do a ' cattle call" for new SOs and accept anyone who can walk through the door and chew gum at the same time.

As far as illegal stages.... OK.. so what? The NRB is a boring pile of poop. Some MDs endeavor to follow it faithfully..."Start at P1, shoot T1 - T3 with 2 rounds each... move to P2 and shoot T4 - T6 with 2 rounds each... using cover" Yawn!!!! Check some Major matches (S&W Indoor is a good place to start... they had illegal stages) I saw one or two at the 2011 World Championship that were illegal.

Illegal stages are only 'illegal' to those who want the game... (and it is a game... if anyone outside of Berryville AR thinks this is Tactical Training For a Real Gunfight they are delusional ) to be so simple that anyone can do it. At club level matches (and at a few Majors) nobody really gives a rat's butt about the Rules unless they are so far out of whack that safety issues become a concern. If the COF is challenging & interesting... it works. And, clubs (which are the backbone of IDPA) are where the vast majority of shooters shoot.

IDPA was doing pretty good before the "latest & greatest" revamp came along. We'll see if it can survive the Tiger Teams ministrations. But, USPSA must be smiling large, because they are now getting annual dues that used to go to IDPA.

[johniac7078]

As far as illegal stages.... OK.. so what? The NRB is a boring pile of poop. Some MDs endeavor to follow it faithfully..."Start at P1, shoot T1 - T3 with 2 rounds each... move to P2 and shoot T4 - T6 with 2 rounds each... using cover" Yawn!!!! Check some Major matches (S&W Indoor is a good place to start... they had illegal stages) I saw one or two at the 2011 World Championship that were illegal.

Illegal stages are only 'illegal' to those who want the game... (and it is a game... if anyone outside of Berryville AR thinks this is Tactical Training For a Real Gunfight they are delusional ) to be so simple that anyone can do it. At club level matches (and at a few Majors) nobody really gives a rat's butt about the Rules unless they are so far out of whack that safety issues become a concern. If the COF is challenging & interesting... it works. And, clubs (which are the backbone of IDPA) are where the vast majority of shooters shoot.

IDPA was doing pretty good before the "latest & greatest" revamp came along. We'll see if it can survive the Tiger Teams ministrations. But, USPSA must be smiling large, because they are now getting annual dues that used to go to IDPA.

As I said, I don't care about "illegal" stages at a club match, but when someone points it out, take it as constructive criticism. Your point about "illegal is only illegal...." is just wrong.

Did you shoot indoor nationals? There was 1 illegal stage. It was thrown out. What stages are you talking about?

USPSA smiling? About area 6? And who was talking about USPSA anyway? That's a different forum.

[IHAVEGAS]

Brand new SOs (mostly minimally skilled MM class shooters with little experience in competitive shooting) sometimes think their Red Hat makes them GOD. That's not so. But, since the new Rule Book resulted in about 40% of the experienced SOs saying .." I'm outa here!".. this is what you get when you do a ' cattle call" for new SOs and accept anyone who can walk through the door and chew gum at the same time.

Wow.

I agree with the cattle call in concept though. In IDPA & USPSA & Steels (and probably three gun, I have not paid attention to the local 3 gun matches) it is hard to find people who are willing to step up & take their turn at the timer and there is a lot of arm twisting & asking for help.

Edited August 9, 2014 by IHAVEGAS