GOF Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Nothing personal at all. The discussion was comparing the level of clarity between the USPSA Rule Book and the IDPA Rule Book, where one results in clear rulings while the other allows 'subjective' rulings based upon the 'opinion' of the SO. You chose to jump in with opinions, but only knowing one side of the issue. Did you expect those with knowledge & experience on both sides of the issue would not point your lack of knowledge out to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 (edited) GOF - I don't recall ever making a comparison to uspsa. Why do you feel the need to make it personal when someone disagrees with you. This thread keeps luring me in. I'm not sure why. Mostly it just bugs me to hear grown men whine so much. New shooters are good thing guys. Sorry if that hurts your feelings. The fact is that if we don't get more and more new shooters we risk a lot more than whatever your beef is with IDPA. None of bathe new shooters I have encountered are learning tactics from IDPA. Hell I have recruited 9 or 10 guys from work to come out and shoot matches. Do you know why? Cause it's fun! Your constant reference to "whining" is growing old. The original poster asked a question, people on both sides of the issue answered it. Those who feel IDPA is on the right track are no more "whining" about the issue then those who feel differently and have posted relevant information explaining and justifying their viewpoint. No one EVER said that "new shooters are a bad thing." I HAVE said that before anyone can make policy, and set rules that effect the membership that they should have some measurable level of experience in those matters. Kind of like spending a significant amoUNT of time being an SO before becoming an SOI. IDPA at some point will need to come to the realization that they can not sustain membership if they don't correct some of teh problems that are causing members, SO's and SOI's to leave the sport. Running interference and ignoring the obvious as they "protect the brand at all costs" isn't a viable option. Edited June 18, 2014 by Chuck D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dkrad1935 Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Actually the original poster asked if IDPA had become a foolish game. My answer - no game where I get to run around and shoot is foolish. And I don't have to camo up! I love to debate issues but (I won't use the term whining) it often seems that folks On here make bold proclamations of IDPA imminent demise because of a rule or a cohort of SO's left or some other disgruntlement. My guess is that IDPA will be around for a long time to come. I work in retail and in every category of merchandise you have a different mix of trial shoppers and repeat shoppers. Smart retailers do things to make that mix profitable in short term as well as long term The core of the discussion may be that some don't feel IDPA has done that well. But I would argue that they can be successful regardless of decisions and policies and treatment of SO's etc for many years. Not advocating they do - just pointing out that there will continue to be growth in IDPA for a while. There are things they have done well in that regard. So - when I get called ignorant for self proclaiming I am not familiar with uspsa rules but then make a point about technical writing I then think that some folks have lost sight of rational thinking and are just pissed that they got a procedural that cost them a wooden plaque or who knows what. That's when it seems like whining in my humble opinion. But what do I know. I'm just a sucker that sent IDPA my dues! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 (edited) ...and people have been answering the OP's question to the best of their abilities. Ignorance is a lack of knowledge. The point being made here is that a comparison of the USPSA and IDPA rulebook can not be made without some form of "better than average" knowledge with both documents. Your comments regarding "short term and long term" mixes is VERY relevant. IDPA will no doubt see a decline in short term participants. It's an eventuality that what goes up must come down. As I've stated over and over again....there is no long term membership retention strategy and when long time members/SO's and SOI's leave it creates a vacuum that has to be filled. When Joyce Wilson pens an article in the Tactical Journal stating rather clearly that members objections are noted but corrective measures are not being considered and if they disagree with the decisions made feel free to "find a shooting sport more to your liking and if you want to come back we'll welcome you back" ...well that isn't conducive from a membership retention standpoint. The guys and gals who helped build the sport are leaving because policy, rules, and subjectivity of those rules by SO's (called home rule by the way) is damaging the sport. To change course would be an admittance that IDPA is a SPORT and possesses a COMPETITIVE aspect to participation. This doesn't bode well for those who view IDPA as a "social activity" and have a vested interest in applying 20 plus year old tactical shooting techniques such as the flat footed reload rule or the fact that creating distance between you and the threat while behind cover (and recharging your firearm while doing so) is an activity most likely to occur with great regularity versus the CCW holder concealing his/her carry weapon with a custom manufactured and embroidered "fishing vest." Last word on the subject...membership retention numbers would tell the ENTIRE story but you'll NEVER see them released by IDPA for the very reasons I've pontificated on in my numerous posts. If they did...they'd have to admit they have a problem that will only get larger unless they reverse course and place an emphasis on the founding principles of the sport and stop injecting subjectivity into a sport that could use in infusion of creativity and modernization. Edited June 18, 2014 by Chuck D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom C Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 "To change course would be an admittance that IDPA is a SPORT and possesses a COMPETITIVE aspect to participation" Yes sir. IDPA has rules (some make sense, some don't) so it has to be a sport and, since it has shooter rankings (Novice, marksman, sharpshooter etc) it has to have competative aspects to participation. Personally, I have no idea if IDPA will crash and burn as a sport, I hope it will survive. I have my own opinions about why IDPA was formed BUT I think they are not appropriate for this forum. As for me, using IDPA as I do, I feel I've learned more about myself and my handgun shooting IDPA even though the round counts are fewer than USPSA. To me it's tomatos, tomatoes. I enjoy shooting and I enjoy the social aspects of IDPA much as I did USPSA and I'll probably find myself doing double duty in the future. This time though, I'll shoot USPSA with my Glock 19 as opposed to my Glock 34. In either sport the only one I'm competing against is me. If we are shooting, we are learning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) Tom C... you are correct. There are many people, myself included, who still shoot IDPA at the local club level... even after the new Rule changes... because of the social atmosphere. It is always fun to gather with the friends you have made in the sport for a pleasant day of trigger time. That's not likely to change. But, the way the club level matches are run is changing. I was certified as a SO in 2007. (BTW the two long-time SOIs who certified be have been RIFed... and we know have no SOI in NE Florida). In that time I helped establish a new club where I am still a de facto CSO, and assist at an even newer club, and am welcome to SO at a couple of others --- even though I refused to re-certify on IDPA's time line. As for changes at the club level.... the two clubs I shoot at the most could care less about "IDPA perfect COF Rules". They set up COFs that regularly violate IDPA rules. The MDs don't care, the SOs don't care, and the shooters don't care. They do adhere to equipment rules, cover calls, safety (obviously) and most IDPA shooting Rules. But they don't give a rat's butt about how many NT, or steel, or distance for weak/strong hand targets, or whatever. The make fun COFs and if they aren't in strict accordance with IDPA... no one cares. I have also seen illegal stages at the 2011 World Championship and two National Championships. I have heard of illegal stages at the S&W Indoor Nationals. What does it say about how people feel about IDPA's Rules when the MDs don't even care about some of them? What does that say about the possibility of another organization .. with better organization and being more responsive to members desires... springing up? Nothing in life is so constant as change. The market has been created. If IDPA can't effectively serve it, someone else will. There are only so many shooters, and so much desgressionary income. Someone will collect it. Will it be IDPA? Edited June 20, 2014 by GOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 What does it say about how people feel about IDPA's Rules when the MDs don't even care about some of them? What does that say about the possibility of another organization .. with better organization and being more responsive to members desires... springing up? Nothing in life is so constant as change. The market has been created. If IDPA can't effectively serve it, someone else will. There are only so many shooters, and so much desgressionary income. Someone will collect it. Will it be IDPA? IMO...YES!Every time a new rule book is released this conversation happens. Some "new organization" is going to come in an take away membership from IDPA. It hasn't happened, and it's not likely to anytime soon. Overall, IDPA membership is increasing. New SOs are being trained to replace those few that decided not to renew. Bottom line, there are simply not enough people that are so dissatisfied that they actually affect membership numbers. Clearly, IDPA is doing something right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 BillR1... do you know what the actual, current, paid IDPA membership is? Do you know, for a fact (not what Berryville says) as to how many shooters did not renew their last membership? Do you know what the retention rate is? These are factors that, IMHO, need be considered. Do you have accurate data on them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 BillR1... do you know what the actual, current, paid IDPA membership is? Do you know, for a fact (not what Berryville says) as to how many shooters did not renew their last membership? Do you know what the retention rate is? These are factors that, IMHO, need be considered. Do you have accurate data on them? Nope, I sure don't. I doubt you do either. The only things I have to go by is the increased participation in local and sanctioned matches in this area, the full SO classes, and IDPA' s statements.Do you have any hard evidence that there's any sort of mass defection by the members that would affect overall numbers? If not, then all we both have is our opinions and our personal observations. People can say all they want that IDPAs membership is decreasing...show me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 You are right... personal opinions and our own observations. You have yours, I have mine. As far as facts, ask Berryville. They'll tell you whatever they want you to believe.... if you can believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 You are right... personal opinions and our own observations. You have yours, I have mine. As far as facts, ask Berryville. They'll tell you whatever they want you to believe.... if you can believe it. That's my point....MY experiences seem to back up what they are saying at HQ. If you have any hard evidence to the contrary, I'd love to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 My experience is as anecdotal as yours is. That's the point. As was pointed out in a previous post by Chuck D, IDPA cannot admit failure, so accurate numbers are unlikely to emerge. So, only time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 My experience is as anecdotal as yours is. That's the point. As was pointed out in a previous post by Chuck D, IDPA cannot admit failure, so accurate numbers are unlikely to emerge. So, only time will tell.It could very well be that there's nothing to "admit". You don't KNOW that those numbers are inaccurate. It's all speculation, as it is on my part. But my observations go along with what Berryville is saying. Some hard evidence is needed to dismiss the statistics given out by an organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Do you have any evidence that IDPA HQ has EVER been intentionally misleading or deceptive with distributing information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 My observations are a bit different. But, those are only the observations of one who was a FL SO from 2007 to 2013. My region may be a bit different from yours. I tend not to totally trust proclamations from Berryville. You may, and that's fine. BTW, if you hurry now you can catch the evening News on MSNBC, NBC, CBS, NPR, CNN, and maybe the Huffington Post. I'm sure you will be very well informed after you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Try to stay on topic... Since you have NO evidence of intentional incorrect information being given out, I'll conclude that your statements are simply parroting what you've heard from other ex-IDPA shooters...that's pretty sad. It's OK; most of them have no idea where they heard it first either. LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) Have another sip of Kool Aid, and you'll feel better. BTW... I do still shoot a few local IDPA club matches, and even SO at some and CSO at one. I do it for the social aspect because of the friendships I've built over the years. However, I'm done with traveling to Sanctioned matches (been to the World, 3 Nationals, and over a dozen state & regionals). Things have gotten a bit too ridiculous to invest that kind of money for a cheap wooden trophy. But, enjoy yourself. Edited June 20, 2014 by GOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Show me the evidence...that's all you need to do. Let's make it easy...show me a hard statistic where the number of IDPA members has decreased in your home state of FL since 2007 when you started SOing. Come on...one state. Time to prove your point... Go ahead, I'll wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 BillR1 ....nice try. Membership numbers need be released by IDPA HQ themselves. THEY are the ones who refuse to release numbers especially with regards to membership retention. If you REALLY want to know....ask THEM. As far as "hard numbers" are concerned, just in my "small circle" of friends that frequented IDPA 11 of them stopped shooting IDPA sanctioned matches on the local, State, Regional or National level. Another 4 or 5 of 'em come out of "self imposed retirement" to "cherry pick" a win or two then go back to USPSA and 3 Gun matches. Looks like to a certain degree....your "wait" is over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 http://www.gunnuts.net/2014/06/03/the-business-of-the-shooting-sports-international-defensive-pistol-association/ Great article about the reasons for the surge in IDPA membership... Decline? Not hardly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) BillRI... sorry I didn't get to your post asking for data before others came in. But, I'll call and email IDPA HQ to get just those exact figures. Just wait. I'll get back to you just as soon as I hear something from them. I promise. Edited June 20, 2014 by GOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I just spoke with the assistant MD for a state sanctioned match coming up in September. The registration has been open for ONE day and he said they're already 1/3 full. Yep, sounds like HQ is lying about the increasing shooter numbers! Too funny!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) 1/3rd capacity in a day...wow. Astounding stat to hang your hat on. An article by Caleb Giddings is your information source...really ? I give you credit....brand protection of the finest quality. Edited June 20, 2014 by Chuck D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) Save you the effort GOF....here's what you'll get. Hello IDPA HQ.... Hi can I speak with someone regarding membership numbers ? How can I help you.... I'm trying to ascertain how many members have left the organization since the implementation of the new rule book ? Specifically the number of members who were active members for a period of 3 plus years plus if they held current SO and/or SOI status... I don't have that information available. Can I have Robert Ray call you back ? Sure my number is (123)456-7890 ask for So and So. When might expect a return call ? I will pass on your request as soon as I can. We will get back to you... Thank you...have a great day. (CLICK). .....as DAYS turn into weeks and months. Ask me how I know this will happen (wink, wink)... Edited June 20, 2014 by Chuck D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom C Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Chuck, now you have me curious. IF...(have to start the question with if) GOF gets an answer regarding membership numbers from IDPA HQ, will you accept those numbers or be dismissive of them? And if you are dismissive of the numbers (assuming GOF is able to provide any) then who do we believe and why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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