dezz Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Hello all, from a former IDPA hard core junkie I have a question. Maybe it is me or has IDPA becoem a foolish game like they claimed USPSA became. Their rules are focued on who the sponcers are and how they are treated. As an ex IDPA junkie I am way excited to move to the next level.-- USPSA Yehaaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSSOH22 Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I don't know if foolish is the correct wording or if i concur in your justification, but as an experienced IDPA shooter as well, I think some things have went down hill. There was at least one if not more "illegal" stages at this past nationals. Regardless, I still think 13 Nats was one of the better ones. I have seen the deficiences in other major matches. I think a lot of the problems are how much they try and dictate the COF's and in turn, they end up being open for interpretation from one SO to another. I have seen multiple rulings overturned at major's this past year for various issues. A few times they were in regards to myself... However I knew the rulebook well and also carry it with me so I could look it up and go straight to the MD.. A perfect example was I was given a procedural for forgetting to go back to a target on a "tac sequence" stage. So they were in the right order, I was just missing my 2nd shot on one target. I was given the penalty instead of a Mike and the SO's response to the MD was "well thats what we've been giving everyone the entire weekend that did the same thing" so hypothetically, a shooter in my div could have received the same procedural that I had overturned and maybe he would have beat me if he had that procedural removed.... I am not sure if there is a clear cut answer to get the game back on track. There have always been haters and there always will be no matter the rule changes. I saw a phase last year at some matches that were geared to get "back to the grassroots" as was stated by the MD's and they were real short COF's with low round counts and more standards stuff then usual. I see what they are getting at but it takes a mixture of stages that cover: speed, accuracy, cover, and mental challenges to make a good match, which i feel that they did with nationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig N Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 (edited) I read the post wrong. I thought you just had a mike on it. Needs reading lessons I does. I'm of the opinion that most rank and file shooters don't really care. They just show up to shoot and have fun. The set of shooters who are looking to improve and move up care because tribal rules kill them when they shoot elsewhere. Edited February 23, 2014 by Craig N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Sills Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 "Engage" means to fire the minimum number of rounds at a target according to the new rulebook. If you did a 1-1-2-1 and moved on, it's a PE due to not following the COF (engage the 3 targets with 2 shots in tac sequence). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbarker13 Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I like to think of IDPA as a game that wishes it wasn't. There's just a real identity crisis within its rank and file. And I don't think anyone is necessarily right or wrong. You have members (of which I am one) who see it as a game in which you get to compete against other shooters. We want high round counts. Lots of movement. Complicated stages, etc. And we want to win. Then you have those who see it as more of a CCW type thing, where "gaming" is sort of a dirty word. They often love the low-round-count stages, etc. Right now (and maybe always), that second group is in charge. And they made it very clear - when explaining the rationale behind recent rule changes - that they want to push IDPA that direction - and are perfectly willing to lose some of the gamer-type shooters in doing so. I was pretty frustrated by this at first, particularly given how much time I've spent helping put on our local club matches. But in the end, you just sort of have to accept it. If you don't like where IDPA is headed, do something else with your shooting dollars/time. I know that's what I'm doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom C Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Due to the restrictions imposed at public ranges (No movement, no working from holsters...At least at my location) and the expense involved in joining the very few private ranges that do allow movement and holster work,,,USPSA and IDPA are natural places for shooters (like me) to be able to engage is something that loosely simulates "actual" shooting situations. It then comes down to preferences. Having shot (and enjoyed) both USPSA and IDPA my leanings are more toward IDPA (in spite of some of the rules that I find not particularly real world). Both are great for meeting like minded people (as far as firearms interest and general political phylosophy), making friends and having a good laugh. Both are also great venues for a shooter to learn more about themselves, their weapon, firearm failure correction, trigger control.......You get the idea. I have seen shooters (in both sports) get the "nod" for questionable procedures, hits, misses etc. Since I only compete againt me, I turn a blind eye to the local inconsistencies. Can't speak to national events as I don't compete at that level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezz Posted February 22, 2014 Author Share Posted February 22, 2014 Here is from my last regional. PE for having my big toe stick out from cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickB Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Here is from my last regional. PE for having my big toe stick out from cover. Sticking out any toe, or any number of toes, has always been worth three seconds. If it didn't get called in the past, and it got called at your last sanctioned match, then that's progress. My complaint with IDPA has always been the willingness of both shooters and SOs to ignore rules, rather than the nature of the rules themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezz Posted February 23, 2014 Author Share Posted February 23, 2014 Yes I get what you are saying RickB but also I hope you see my point and that is the sillyness of IDPA and its rules. To each his own and I have moved on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSSOH22 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 "Engage" means to fire the minimum number of rounds at a target according to the new rulebook. If you did a 1-1-2-1 and moved on, it's a PE due to not following the COF (engage the 3 targets with 2 shots in tac sequence). Adam, I honestly have not read the new rule book however this match was under the old rules and honestly that right there is one of the issues that are being discussed. People, especially new shooters, make mistakes and get overwhelmed. What would be the point of giving a pe when they already got a 5 for not having 2 on the target.... How could that possibly be an advantage when it takes .50-.60 to fire a transitional split? That among with a lot of other things is what people are frustrated about. Plus I'm sure people could argue it like crazy.... I.e you and all your buddies are on a stage. You receive a pe for the prementioned lack of tac sequence. You say you shot at it and missed and your buddies concur, then what? It's similar to the whole round dumping rule they used to have which was ridiculous! It allowed the SO the power to speculate on what the shooter was actually thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Sills Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 "Engage" means to fire the minimum number of rounds at a target according to the new rulebook. If you did a 1-1-2-1 and moved on, it's a PE due to not following the COF (engage the 3 targets with 2 shots in tac sequence). Adam, I honestly have not read the new rule book however this match was under the old rules and honestly that right there is one of the issues that are being discussed. People, especially new shooters, make mistakes and get overwhelmed. What would be the point of giving a pe when they already got a 5 for not having 2 on the target.... How could that possibly be an advantage when it takes .50-.60 to fire a transitional split? That among with a lot of other things is what people are frustrated about. Plus I'm sure people could argue it like crazy.... I.e you and all your buddies are on a stage. You receive a pe for the prementioned lack of tac sequence. You say you shot at it and missed and your buddies concur, then what? It's similar to the whole round dumping rule they used to have which was ridiculous! It allowed the SO the power to speculate on what the shooter was actually thinking. Even under the old rules, this was a procedural for not following the COF. Imagine a shooter who *did* follow the COF and threw a mike at a target. That shooter, who followed the COF now has the time taken *plus* the points down. The person who did not follow the COF actually gets a better score because of the lack of time taken to shoot the additional shot. New or not is irrelevant. By not giving the person who doesn't follow the COF a procedural, you are essentially penalizing everyone else who does follow it. Prior to the forum being removed (the post-2012 clarification forum), I believe there was a Robert Ray clarification on this topic on the IDPA Forums. As far as the last bit of your post, when I am SO'ing I am counting and following what the shooter is doing. I watched two shooters at my last match screw up tac sequence and gave them penalties. If I, as an SO, am unsure on what happened, I don't give a penalty because I can't then "prove" it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Hey Dezz: Here's a post from the moderators about posting here. It is stickied at the top of this forum. Get lost. For those that don't shoot IDPA (either often, much, never or in a long time), why would you post on this thread forum ??? If all you really do is complain about how "they got it wrong"...STAY OUT OF THE IDPA SECTION. All you are doing is pissing in the soup and ruining it for the rest of the crowd. Let the people that enjoy the sport have a nice place to come to talk about it. It's not too much to ask.-Admin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Steve, The forum rules also say no personal attacks so maybe you should cool it also ... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okorpheus Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I kind of like the explanation I saw on Caleb Giddongs' blog. Comparing USPSA and IDPA rules is a bit pointless. They are different games that both happen to use a handgun. Tennis and badminton both use rackets, but do tennis player spend much time complaining about badminton rules? Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) Who have I attacked Bob? I told Dezz to get lost as he is violating forum rules. Do you object to me calling him on violating the forum rules? Edited February 24, 2014 by Steve Koski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 No, but surely you could have found a better way of putting it, hmmmm? Its rarely smart to violate forum rules when telling someone else they are violating forum rules. But I will submit to your opinion on the proper technique for correcting bad manners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Where did I violate the forum rules Bob? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I give up, you win, your conversational skills are unmatched and above reproach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Z Sr Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I give up, you win, your conversational skills are unmatched and above reproach. very well played Bob!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Annnnnd...another troll that got a PE at a match comes in and whines about the rules. Well said Steve! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom C Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Just a reminder for all: This forum requires excessive moderation due to real and imagined slights against IDPA. As a result the Moderating Team has discussed deleting the IDPA Forum altogether. We've decided to keep it for now, by a narrow margin with some stipulations:Please post respectfully or don't post at all.No antagonistic tones will be tolerated.The attitude that questioning a rule is "bashing" or anti-IDPA must stop. As long as the question is posted in a constructive manner there is no reason not to discuss a rule. That said, topics that have been covered ad nauseum may be closed. Please use the search feature.Threads or posts not following this spirit will be locked or deleted, and offenders will be banned from posting. Please, for the life of the IDPA Forum and the constructive input gained from it, participate appropriately.Members who can't post politely or who come here merely to bash IDPA or IDPA's rules will receive a 7 day suspension from The Forums upon their first offense. A second offense will incur a 30 day suspension from The Forums.Thank you,The Moderating Team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swatcop Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) This post kind of reminds me of a NRA TPC match I went to one time. There was a guy in my squad that complained about the rules all day long. He cornered me late in the day and I simply responded by saying, if you hate it so bad why did you CHOOSE to be here all day. He walked away and didn't say anything else near me. Different games, different rules, its all still shooting and better than being at home cuttin the grass. If you don't like, don't come. Edited February 25, 2014 by swatcop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 The amount of IDPA nuthugging is just unreal. Has IDPA turned into a cult? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juan Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 lets silence radio talk shows also cant have anybody say something against the establishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonOfSpartans Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I am looking forward to an IDPA match this weekend that is a local season opener. Followed by a 3gun in two weeks and the USPSA two weeks after that. Nuff said JC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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