IDPA and the foolishness

[BillR1]

I was bored today, so I just looked at all of the references of "etc" in the rulebook. They're all quite clear to me as far as their meaning. Which ones are you wondering about?

This could be good... LOL

[Hi-Power Jack]

What's IDPA?

Anything like USPSA???

[BillR1]

And that... is what makes the Rule Book worthless as a rules document governing the conduct of competitors in a sport. This Rule Book clearly states... up front... that it is not intended to be a 'real Rule Book"... just a 'suggestion... that anyone can apply common sense to and arrive at any conclusion they want.

And, apparently some new Tribes. I didn't know AZ was such a hotbed of NBA activity that "I could ask any 10 shooters in my area and they would know what a pivot was". In my neck of the woods we lack that Tribal knowledge.

No, the IDPA rulebook doesn't tell how how your shoes must be tied. If you NEED that type of micro-management, then it's probably not the sport for you. Most of us do not.

The NBA reference is becoming laughable. As I stated previously (but do feel free to continue to ignore it) the pivot is the same at any level of basketball. More credibility-destroying exaggerations...

Keep digging..it's fun to watch.

[alma]

And that... is what makes the Rule Book worthless as a rules document governing the conduct of competitors in a sport. This Rule Book clearly states... up front... that it is not intended to be a 'real Rule Book"... just a 'suggestion... that anyone can apply common sense to and arrive at any conclusion they want.

And, apparently some new Tribes. I didn't know AZ was such a hotbed of NBA activity that "I could ask any 10 shooters in my area and they would know what a pivot was". In my neck of the woods we lack that Tribal knowledge.

No, the IDPA rulebook doesn't tell how how your shoes must be tied. If you NEED that type of micro-management, then it's probably not the sport for you. Most of us do not.

The NBA reference is becoming laughable. As I stated previously (but do feel free to continue to ignore it) the pivot is the same at any level of basketball. More credibility-destroying exaggerations...

Keep digging..it's fun to watch.

False, there is as much or more micromanaging in IDPA. The difference is that micromanaging comes from each individual SO instead of set of clearly written and objective rules.

[GOF]

BillR1... the NBA reference has become laughable only because you made it so. When one puts on a clown hat, they can expect to be called a clown.

As for the "ects" that you claim to have so studiously looked over.... and (of course LOL!) they are all just as clear as daylight to you. BUT... how about all the other SO/SOI/MDs that, apparently lack your infinite wisdom? BTW... I specifically asked you when you were certified as a SO and how long you have been a SO running shooters. I guess you forgot to answer.

OK how 'bout answering that question now. If you don't choose to answer.... the answer can be found I can guess that your vast experience actually running a IDPA squad might be of interest that have been doing it for quite awhile.... especially in regards to your seemingly embracing the "suggestion" Rule Book.

Edited June 23, 2014 by GOF

[BillR1]

BillR1... the NBA reference has become laughable only because you made it so. When one puts on a clown hat, they can expect to be called a clown.

As for the "ects" that you claim to have so studiously looked over.... and (of course LOL!) they are all just as clear as daylight to you. BUT... how about all the other SO/SOI/MDs that, apparently lack your infinite wisdom? BTW... I specifically asked you when you were certified as a SO and how long you have been a SO running shooters. I guess you forgot to answer.

OK how 'bout answering that question now. If you don't choose to answer.... the answer can be found I can guess that your vast experience actually running a IDPA squad might be of interest that have been doing it for quite awhile.... especially in regards to your seemingly embracing the "suggestion" Rule Book.

You're right..the info is easily found. I've been SOing a couple of years and been certified about 6 months. And that means...what?

Now how about answering MY question...which of the "etc" references is truly unclear to you? I'm anxious to hear this one...

Edited June 23, 2014 by BillR1

[bigdawgbeav]

Here's a novel idea... if you don't like IDPA, don't participate. If you don't like the rules, don't come to a match. I don't get why this thread has gone this deep just because someone thinks it's "foolish". No one is forcing you to like it. And as such there is no reason to actually say anything.

In my area IDPA is going strong as well as USPSA. There is room for both...

[BillR1]

Here's a novel idea... if you don't like IDPA, don't participate. If you don't like the rules, don't come to a match. I don't get why this thread has gone this deep just because someone thinks it's "foolish". No one is forcing you to like it. And as such there is no reason to actually say anything.

In my area IDPA is going strong as well as USPSA. There is room for both...

This!!

[GOF]

BillR1... any "etc" in what is supposed to be a comprehensive Rule Book that governs an international sport shooting organization is "one etc. too many".

But, now I do see where you're coming from. You've been holding a clip board for a couple of years and now.. just a few months ago!... have discovered what the Rules actually are!... at least as your previously established Tribal views concur. Thanks for the insight. You can wax as eloquently as you want about IDPA Rules... but I've seen far too many of you inexperienced "Tribal types" over the years.

You have fun here. I'm done being your enabler. Now that you've truly put on the clown hat as a "expert SO" you can expect to be called a clown. But you have finally bored me to death with your inanities. But... I will watch the NBA games next year so I can figure out how YOU interpret the Rule Book.

Bye.

[BillR1]

BillR1... any "etc" in what is supposed to be a comprehensive Rule Book that governs an international sport shooting organization is "one etc. too many".

But, now I do see where you're coming from. You've been holding a clip board for a couple of years and now.. just a few months ago!... have discovered what the Rules actually are!... at least as your previously established Tribal views concur. Thanks for the insight. You can wax as eloquently as you want about IDPA Rules... but I've seen far too many of you inexperienced "Tribal types" over the years.

You have fun here. I'm done being your enabler. Now that you've truly put on the clown hat as a "expert SO" you can expect to be called a clown. But you have finally bored me to death with your inanities. But... I will watch the NBA games next year so I can figure out how YOU interpret the Rule Book.

Bye.

So you refuse to answer the question...big surprise there! LOL

You were trolling...I understand...hope you had fun!

[56hawk]

I was bored today, so I just looked at all of the references of "etc" in the rulebook. They're all quite clear to me as far as their meaning. Which ones are you wondering about?

This could be good... LOL

"Etc." is used 41 times in the rule book. These are the only ones I found vague:

8.1.7.4. Sights of non-standard configuration (ghost rings, Bo-Mar ribs, etc.).

How about fiber optics, gold bead, Guttersnipe, HK VP70, SureSight? What is standard?

8.5.1.8. Must be constructed of normal thickness common holster making materials (leather, Kydex, plastic, nylon, etc.).

Is aluminum or wood common? I have an aluminum Safariland holster and a wood Browning Hi-Power holster. Not to mention what does normal thickness mean?

8.8.2. Cleated shoes designed for specific sports (i.e., football, baseball, golf, etc.) may not be worn.

Can I wear ice cleats? Hobnail boots? Or how about running cleats? They aren't designed for specific sports.

[motosapiens]

I was bored today, so I just looked at all of the references of "etc" in the rulebook. They're all quite clear to me as far as their meaning. Which ones are you wondering about?

This could be good... LOL

That's great that they are clear to you. The problem is they may be clear to someone else but with entirely different meaning.

'common sense' is another way to say "we don't have any reasoning to back it up, we just *feel* that way."

[BillR1]

I was bored today, so I just looked at all of the references of "etc" in the rulebook. They're all quite clear to me as far as their meaning. Which ones are you wondering about?

This could be good... LOL

"Etc." is used 41 times in the rule book. These are the only ones I found vague:

8.1.7.4. Sights of non-standard configuration (ghost rings, Bo-Mar ribs, etc.).

How about fiber optics, gold bead, Guttersnipe, HK VP70, SureSight? What is standard?

8.5.1.8. Must be constructed of normal thickness common holster making materials (leather, Kydex, plastic, nylon, etc.).

Is aluminum or wood common? I have an aluminum Safariland holster and a wood Browning Hi-Power holster. Not to mention what does normal thickness mean?

8.8.2. Cleated shoes designed for specific sports (i.e., football, baseball, golf, etc.) may not be worn.

Can I wear ice cleats? Hobnail boots? Or how about running cleats? They aren't designed for specific sports.

Good ones! Thanks!

The cleats rule HAS been discussed a lot. That one is a bit vague for sure. Trail running shoes with cleated soles have been deemed legal in situations I've heard about.

The holster rule is also confusing. Is aluminum or wood for a holster "common"? I'm sure there are examples, but common?

The sights rule has also been discussed a lot. My understanding of "standard" is a notch-post configuration. Gold beads and FOs still fit into that since they're just different posts. 4.1.7 says "sights must be conventional post and notch"

3/41 examples are vague...not bad.

I appreciate your references.

Edited June 23, 2014 by BillR1

[56hawk]

3/41 examples are vague...not bad.

I appreciate your references.

Anytime. All the other ones had a decent explination and really didn't need the examples.

[Quag]

you guys are killing me, you all must be bored. I think I'm going to cancel that SO class I signed up for. You know what I do for a living I take environmental chemistry data and write reports to submit to regulators. I put the data in the best possible light for my client (industry) but I stick to the facts to preserve my professional license. So I guess I have been doing technical writing for 30 plus years. I hate it its hard work. Yeah the rule book is vague in parts but you can never eliminate ambiguity and personal bias. However using words like etc. in a rule book is just plain lazy and wrong.

At the IDPA matches I have been at (NC, MA, NH) have all had different levels of interpretation. In NC it was pretty hot so we did not use cover. The guys in MA/NH even nicknamed me Mr. Procedural, I could care less as long as I do not hit the NTs and I do not get any FTNs. I like the cover you have to use in IDPA, the USPSA matches just seemed too frenetic for me. Those open guns did not do a thing for me.

PS I got new fancy running shoes I hope nobody sees the cleats on them!

[BillR1]

you guys are killing me, you all must be bored. I think I'm going to cancel that SO class I signed up for. You know what I do for a living I take environmental chemistry data and write reports to submit to regulators. I put the data in the best possible light for my client (industry) but I stick to the facts to preserve my professional license. So I guess I have been doing technical writing for 30 plus years. I hate it its hard work. Yeah the rule book is vague in parts but you can never eliminate ambiguity and personal bias. However using words like etc. in a rule book is just plain lazy and wrong.

At the IDPA matches I have been at (NC, MA, NH) have all had different levels of interpretation. In NC it was pretty hot so we did not use cover. The guys in MA/NH even nicknamed me Mr. Procedural, I could care less as long as I do not hit the NTs and I do not get any FTNs. I like the cover you have to use in IDPA, the USPSA matches just seemed too frenetic for me. Those open guns did not do a thing for me.

PS I got new fancy running shoes I hope nobody sees the cleats on them!

I've also been in a technical field most of my life. (currently a network engineer) I guess I never felt that the "etc" references detracted from the rulebook at all. Most of them are used to give examples and not to specify a rule. Like 56hawk said, most of these were not needed. I understood what they were saying. Obviously the rulebook was not written by someone versed in technical writing. That much is apparent. I still believe in the vast majority of cases the writer's intent is pretty clear. Again, the rulebook clearly states that it's not intended to be an exhaustive list that defines every possible situation. Is that wrong? I guess it is for some people. I don't have an issue with it personally. I agree with you that you can never completely eliminate ambiguity. To each his own..

[jcc7x7]

I pretty much gave IDPA up (after buying a new 625 last year) because of the "foolishness"!

As an example no other matches to shoot in my area last weekend other than IDPA. I waited till it was over and went to the range and practiced instead of going to the match.

I'll go to some to fill in but won't be scheduling for them anymore with the exception of "Beast of the East" I really enjoy the MD and the majority of the COF's there. I'm sure there are others I would enjoy also but not with all the "foolishness"

Not a hater at all but VERY DISAPPOINTED!

Edited June 24, 2014 by jcc7x7

[bigdawgbeav]

I pretty much gave IDPA up (after buying a new 625 last year) because of the "foolishness"!

As an example no other matches to shoot in my area last weekend other than IDPA. I waited till it was over and went to the range and practiced instead of going to the match.

I'll go to some to fill in but won't be scheduling for them anymore with the exception of "Beast of the East" I really enjoy the MD and the majority of the COF's there. I'm sure there are others I would enjoy also but not with all the "foolishness"

Not a hater at all but VERY DISAPPOINTED!

Guess I'll see you there. Ken does a great job and the match booklet was released today. As usual he's got some tricks up his sleeve. Should be fun and challenging.

/threadjack

[Racinready300ex]

Personally I like IDPA, but it did have it's problems. We all had high hopes for the new rule book, and it got worse. I want to like IDPA, I'll still shoot some local club matches with friends. But, I won't renew or shoot any major matches in the future.

Cover calls still are, and always will be BS. They can write all the rules they want, as long as the SO has to watch for you to cross a imaginary line these calls can't be made fairly. And now the flat footed reloads get added in. Not only is it lame, but the SO has to detirmine when your foot/feet did or didn't move in relation to what your hands were doing in less than 1 second. Can't be done, some people will get away with it others wont.

And the fact that you can't use overlays, and the "if it's that close it's good" mentality makes it clear the rules aren't meant to be fair.

[GOF]

A BIG +1! Local matches with friends? Heck yes! Spending large money to travel to major sanctioned matches (gas or air fare.. done both... hotel multiple days... restaurants for all meals... maybe a rental car... these expenses dwarf the match fee that many complain about).... and when you get all done with the expenses, some newly-appointed dweeb SO (often a MM who thinks his newly-acquired Red Hat now makes him some sort of 'Tactical Trainer', who doesn't know the Rule book, but is bound and determined to do things as they "interpret the ill-defined Rules)...starts dinging you for what you know is legal behavior.

And... all this to win a $10 plague? Why? Maybe for some. But after several Nationals, the Worlds and many State & Regionals I'm thinking... I'll pass... thanks.

If you can't count on a clearly defined Rule Book... and competent SOs (many of whom have already left) then why? Is it a mystery as to why the only Top Shooters shoot a IDPA match are those who are required by sponsor contract to be there? If the match can't attract the Top Shooters... doesn't that say something?

[BillR1]

Personally I like IDPA, but it did have it's problems. We all had high hopes for the new rule book, and it got worse. I want to like IDPA, I'll still shoot some local club matches with friends. But, I won't renew or shoot any major matches in the future.

Cover calls still are, and always will be BS. They can write all the rules they want, as long as the SO has to watch for you to cross a imaginary line these calls can't be made fairly. And now the flat footed reloads get added in. Not only is it lame, but the SO has to detirmine when your foot/feet did or didn't move in relation to what your hands were doing in less than 1 second. Can't be done, some people will get away with it others wont.

And the fact that you can't use overlays, and the "if it's that close it's good" mentality makes it clear the rules aren't meant to be fair.

If you're frustrated with the rules and not enjoying it, or if you don't think it's worth your time, then you shouldn't do it. None of us are getting rich from shooting...this is supposed to be FUN. When the fun isn't there, it's time to do something else.

I still enjoy IDPA immensely. It's not perfect by any means, but for me it's FUN and even relaxing. If it ever stops being fun for me, I'm sure I'll move along also.

[Tom C]

I was just reading the posts regarding the USPSA RO scandal. Such a shame an RO took such inappropriate actions. I do not believe this particular issue is systemic in the shooting sports and hope the USPSA members who were impacted and or upset by the RO's actions recover their trust in their shooting sport. I know I know, this is an IDPA site but this is no time for gloating or jeering. It's a time to live and let live. Shoot the sport you like, enjoy the sport you like. For most of us it's for fun anyway.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Tom C

[ADulay]

You know, I really do try to stay out of these bizarre arguments.

If the shooter is out of cover, PE. That's an obvious call.

Blow past a target? PE. COF failure, right?

Shoot extra rounds/not enough rounds in a Limited Vickers stage? PE. Deal with it.

What's a Tribal Rule that comes into play here? You're either IN cover or you're not.

Local Tribal Rules allowing shooters to attend matches more than once without paying the IDPA membership? Not a big deal for most of the civilized world.

A Tribal Rule that let's 40S&W shoot in CDP is obviously a violation or a local outlaw match.

The reason people think they're getting "Tribal Rules" on calls, especially cover PE's is because of the way it's called at a person's local range. If it's called "tight", then there's usually no problem at a higher tier match.

If the cover calls are sloppy and loose in a local match, you can bet those shooters MAY get called more than others. I've seen it happen with some of our guys.

The scope of differences can't be that large from range to range.

What's there to call on the FFR? The shooter is either moving forward in the stage or they are not. Shooter moves out before the slide closes? PE. How hard is that to call?

I just don't see where all the big problems are coming up. Most people don't like the FFR. It's the rule now. Deal with it until we get it changed!

AD (not affiliated, sponsored, "Liked" or even talked about all that much with anything having to do with IDPA HQ, World Peace or Whale saving)

[racerba]

If you're frustrated with the rules and not enjoying it, or if you don't think it's worth your time, then you shouldn't do it. None of us are getting rich from shooting...this is supposed to be FUN. When the fun isn't there, it's time to do something else.

Hence the problem. I have read this from several post - "if you don't like it - don't shoot it". Eventually, the sport will consist of a handful of people who like or can tolerate the rules. Then where will you be? Shouldn't it be your interest to draw people into shooting the sport that you enjoy so that the sport can thrive??? Shouldn't it be your interest to keep existing people in the sport so that the sport can grow??? Shouldn't the number of people leaving the sport concern anyone? Sure, there are new members also, but how long will those new members stay until they decide to leave because of the inconsistency? The major problem with IDPA is the rule book and how it's written and how it allows different interpretations by different SOs. It is not consistent across the board and is not fair to every competitor.

Sure, cover is cover and violating cover is a PE...easy enough to say (Adulay - not singling you out, just using you as an example since you were the most recent to post). But what if one SO likes to stand here and one SO likes to stand there...giving two different perspective of the actual location of the shooter. So the same action by the same shooter will be perfectly legal to one SO while a PE to another SO (yes, I've seen this happen).

And as an SO, you are responsible for the safety of the stage. How are you to maintain safety watching how the shooter is manipulating their gun and also trying to look to see if the shooter is behind cover enough and/or if he is lifting his foot, "etc."...

No cleats allowed, but turf shoes are OK? Is it? Ask 100 SOs and you probably be close to 50-50 decision.

To the interest of the sport, you need clear and concise rules without the need for interpretations so that it can be applied fairly to all competitor.

[IHAVEGAS]

"Never argue with an idiot, bystanders can not tell the difference".

Anybody else have that saying come to mind when you scan the argumentative threads?