IDPA and the foolishness

[Quag]

I have been told by a few IDPA shooters that the USPSA RO's are just clock stands.

Wow, jealous bunch aren't they?

Nahhhhhhh. people just bein petty...

did'nt you mean people just being pretty

[bonglee0507]

I just can't get into yhe goddamn VEST!

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Edited March 13, 2014 by bonglee0507

[Tom C]

I have been told by a few IDPA shooters that the USPSA RO's are just clock stands.

Wow, jealous bunch aren't they?

Nahhhhhhh. people just bein petty...

did'nt you mean people just being pretty

Nope

[Tarkeg]

I just can't get into yhe goddamn VEST!

Sent from my iPad Air using Tapatalk HD

Never go full Yeager....

[bonglee0507]

I just can't get into yhe goddamn VEST!

Sent from my iPad Air using Tapatalk HD

Never go full Yeager....

I dont but in this case i agree with him especially with that damn vest

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[JimM]

If anyone is tired of or bored with either USPSA or IDPA there is always NRA Bullseye !!!

I had a great deal of fun, and learned much, shooting informal bullseye when I got started 30+ years ago. If I didn't enjoy shooting with those men and women, I didn't have to go. The same principle applies today with IDPA and USPSA activities. It's the people I get to shoot with more than the rules of the game that brings me back. If/when that formula changes, I suspect that other ways to spend my free time will become more apparent.

[johnny1gun]

I usually don't engage myself in these conversations, its like talking Religion,Music,or politics. What's a better truck Ford no Chevy. I have to say its an imperfect world and the time spent trying to fix it for the complainers is a waist of time They will always find something wrong. I know Im one of them.LOL!! There will be people that will disagree with this post. But I cant control that. That being said I hate the fact that In IDPA there is no foul line for cover, instead I either hear cover,COVER!!! Or I just get the penalty. And the only thing is a toe sticking out. If the person shooting at me can hit my big toe. Then Ill be dead before this is a issue. Please put cover foul lines in and there will be a lot less arguing. Then a shooter will know where he needs to be and so will the S.O. In USPSA I have complaints with them to. Im not going to take up the time to explain them. I like shooting both games for different reasons. I will leave it to other people to decide my fate for the way Im going to play these games. When it gets to the point I no longer enjoy the games because of the rule changes. I will find some other game to shoot. Witch it sounds like some are doing. Right now I love the people, and the 2 games to much to leave either.

YOU ONLY GET ONE CHANCE AT LIFE! WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO WITH IT?

Edited March 16, 2014 by johnny1gun

[SierraAV8R]

It's amusing how there's such rivalry between the two sports. I started out shooting IPSC, but the whole shooting gallery feel of it didn't appeal to me. Standing in open doorways, disregarding cover, not shooting the closest bad guy first, etc, etc, just didn't make sense. I'm glad those original IPSC guys broke off and established a sport closer to real life skills. I prefer IDPA now. To those who love USPSA, good for you. But I carry a gun for a living and I appreciate something at least based on gunfighting.

[sigsauerfan]

Flat footed mag reloads are just dumb, especially for a sport that purports to "simulate real life scenarios".

yes. flat out dumb.

[JohnnyD]

I agree there is some foolishness with IDPA's rules but that hasn't stopped me from giving it a shot. I shot my last IDPA match last weekend and trying out another tomorrow. I think if I stick with it I might pick up a revolver as I wouldn't mind getting better shooting a revolver and not deal with the insane round count of USPSA.

To me it's just another game and you gotta play by the rules.

Instead of a tacticool fishing fest I picked up a denim jacket a couple sizes too big at the thrift store and cut the sleeves off...insta-vest

That being said I'm not going to stop shooting USPSA.

[RickB]

rowdyb, on 26 Feb 2014 - 7:23 PM, said:

Funny how you don't see threads in the uspsa shooting forum about how people who also shoot idpa hate uspsa and how dumb it is........

Ken Reed started a poll here, a few years ago, and IIRC, more than half the people who responded to the poll, never shoot IDPA. It's not so much a forum for IDPA, as about IDPA.

[RickB]

sigsauerfan, on 15 May 2014 - 5:30 PM, said:

Chills1994, on 26 Feb 2014 - 02:54 AM, said:

Flat footed mag reloads are just dumb, especially for a sport that purports to "simulate real life scenarios".

yes. flat out dumb.

It was a response to some even dumber things. People intentionally running their gun dry, in a defensive context, is dumb. Leaving a cover position with an empty gun, reloading as you run across open ground, is dumb. Running down a hallway, toward known threats, often with an empty gun, is dumb.

Once we get a definition of "leave" from HQ, it's possible the flat-footed reload won't look much different from old reloads; if you can lift one foot prior to initiating the reload, and lift the other foot after, you have a full step to perform the reload without "advancing".

[motosapiens]

It was a response to some even dumber things. People intentionally running their gun dry, in a defensive context, is dumb. Leaving a cover position with an empty gun, reloading as you run across open ground, is dumb. Running down a hallway, toward known threats, often with an empty gun, is dumb.

but running down a hallway towards known cardboard targets while reloading is a reasonable idea if you are playing a game whose object is to shoot stuff fast.

They are both games. One of them has NO rules about boring tactical crap and the other one has dangerous and idiotic and unrealistic rules about boring tactical crap.

[RickB]

motosapiens, on 22 May 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

RickB, on 21 May 2014 - 3:09 PM, said:

It was a response to some even dumber things. People intentionally running their gun dry, in a defensive context, is dumb. Leaving a cover position with an empty gun, reloading as you run across open ground, is dumb. Running down a hallway, toward known threats, often with an empty gun, is dumb.

but running down a hallway towards known cardboard targets while reloading is a reasonable idea if you are playing a game whose object is to shoot stuff fast.

Maybe you can start a new sport, called something like "Search and Destroy"?

[v1911]

Hasn't this thread run its course?

[BillR1]

It was a response to some even dumber things. People intentionally running their gun dry, in a defensive context, is dumb. Leaving a cover position with an empty gun, reloading as you run across open ground, is dumb. Running down a hallway, toward known threats, often with an empty gun, is dumb.

but running down a hallway towards known cardboard targets while reloading is a reasonable idea if you are playing a game whose object is to shoot stuff fast.

They are both games. One of them has NO rules about boring tactical crap and the other one has dangerous and idiotic and unrealistic rules about boring tactical crap.

From the IDPA rulebook:

1.1.5. Provide shooters with practical and realistic courses of fire, and test skills that could be required to survive life-threatening encounters.

1.3.2.4. At its core, IDPA is a self-defense scenario based sport.

There's the difference between the games. Many of us ENJOY the "boring tactical crap".

Edited May 24, 2014 by BillR1

[deerassassin22]

I just started going to our local IDPA Matches just to shoot more rounds. I love USPSA and use IDPA as a means of practicing strong hand shooting and weak hand and other skills. In our club we always recommend USPSA to start with new shooters easier for them to understand and less rules, this allows them to have fun. We don't penalize them we just make sure they shoot SAFE which ultimately be everyone's goal in IDPA, USPA, IPSC, whatever. What I have notices about IDPA is that they don't like it called a "Game", which we have to understand it is since we keep score and a time. I also noticed that IDPA takes FOREVER at a USPSA match we have 60 to 80 shooters every Sunday with round counts around 250 to 300rnds. IDPA is usually 150rnds or less with 30 to 40 shooters. It takes the same amount of time to shoot IDPA with half the shooters and half the rounds no matter what I still have yet to figure out why. I have noticed a lot of debating about rules takes place. I will continue to shoot both because practice is well practice. I think the VEST is funny for IDPA because I have only seen maybe 10 people in the last 10 years wearing a 5.11 Concealment vest in the United States.

1.3.2.4 AT its core, IDPA is a self-defense scenario based sport

Recommendation to make it not as much of a "Game"

1. As soon as shooters pull up on a range they are shown to an area to "gun up"

2. They are given 10minutes to load magazines and ensure gear is placed correctly.

3. During Steps 1 and 2 they are not allowed near any of the bays.

4. As soon as step 2 is completed they are taken to the first stage where the are immediately give the commands to load and holster ABSOLUTELY NO WALKTHRU's

5. Stage is scored as shot with the time END OF STORY

6. This is your "Self-Defense Scenario" because in combat or a firefight, lethal encounter you don't get so see it all before it happens.

[Rick88]

1.1.5. Provide shooters with practical and realistic courses of fire, and test skills that could be required to survive life-threatening encounters.
1.3.2.4. At its core, IDPA is a self-defense scenario based sport.

You posted the exact reason I dont shoot idpa there is no such thing as a realistic course of fire in a defensive situation, advancing and engaging multiple targets is a offensive tactic and when you keep time and score its a game. Self defence and sport should never be used in the same sentence. I have nothing against idpa other then the fact that its promoted as training when in reality in a real live fire fight the idpa guy using his idpa "training" would be the first one sent home in a body bag...Now having said all that when wilson started this I wanted to give it a try but when I found out I had to wear the silly tact-cool fishing vest I knew he was trying to create a new platform and it just wasnt for me. I'm glad it has worked out for him in the long run, idpa and uspsa are both very fun games but please never confuse either with real life... :-)

[BillR1]

1.1.5. Provide shooters with practical and realistic courses of fire, and test skills that could be required to survive life-threatening encounters.

1.3.2.4. At its core, IDPA is a self-defense scenario based sport.

You posted the exact reason I dont shoot idpa...

Just curious...why are you posting on an IDPA forum if you don't shoot it or even like it? I've never understood that concept, and I see it quite a bit.

There are a ton of reasons why I don't shoot USPSA, but I'm somehow able to refrain from going on the USPSA forums and criticizing that sport.

Live and let live maybe?

[Rick88]

Ok, enjoy your defensive training. And I will enjoy the game.. :-)

[Chuck D]

I did shoot IDPA for several years so maybe, just maybe, my "opinion" will have validity....

IDPA prior to the latest rulebook was on the right track. Defensive pistol minded courses of fire and the majority of the rules although not perfect (as no sanctioning bodies rules ever are) were "defendable" for the most part. Enter the new rulebook and combine such with the degree of "leeway" where the SO has the ability to make judgment calls based on those rules and for me at least my interest wanes and eventually dies off completely.

This is constructive criticism I'm offering here, not "bashing" by any stretch of the imagination. IDPA is a game...same as USPSA, Steel Challenge, Bianchi Cup, SASS, etc. Unless and until the targets shoot back...we're ALL playing a game. There are thousands of ways to assure and safeguard the principles IDPA was founded on but to place any emphasis on IDPA being "practical" as a form of self-defense activity or to call it "training" of any sort is disingenuous at best.

What it has become is a procedural penalty festival where if you apply any form of competitive principles a.k.a. the "gamer mindset" the procedural hammer drops and in some instances it's the subjective opinion of the SO that dictates the actions taken. In any activity...this condition practically assures the creation of two types of participants...the conformists and the rebels and of course the two will eventually clash.

Here's how the problem of "foolishness" can be solved adequately:

1. Admit IDPA is a game. There is NO harm in this but stop quoting the mantra of ancient firearms instructors and allow variation of self defense minded shooting styles. We've all moved well past the Weaver stance and to reload your pistol while FULLY behind cover and MOVING is a skill set taught in training centers and LE Academies across the nation.

2. Solidify the rules, take out ALL personal interpretations and finally put an end to "home rule" issues. The rules must be cut and dry as much as possible. The FTDR is an excellent example of a punitive measure handed out for what usually is someone's interpretation of an action taken by a competitor and has the ability to be applied for personal reasons not actual rules violations.

3. If IDPA is an ACTUAL defensive pistol activity, ban the fishing vest and sponsor shirts. Who defends their self, loved ones and community wearing an embroidered fishing vest and jersey COVERED in sponsor logos ? If IDPA is going to talk the talk then walk the walk.

4. Recognize there are components of IDPA membership that care about their performance and strive to improve their competitive shooting skills. They are friendly people too but the main emphasis when they strap on their gear ISN'T "being social." Social activities are more than appropriate at all times before and after the match but competitors actually DO care about their performance unlike the short video clips that can be viewed on YouTube with certain SOI's stating that "they don't care how well they shoot, they're there to be social and have a good time."

IDPA in and itself is fun and challenging and possesses a unique "flavor" to it as it has done an excellent job of marketing itself to the defensive minded pistol owner. With that said...tighten up the rules, eliminate the "personal interpretations" of those rules, and own up to what IDPA really is...a game...and set aside the "my way or the highway" attitude from HQ and the sport will continue to thrive.

Edited May 24, 2014 by Chuck D

[BillR1]

The FTDR is an excellent example of a punitive measure handed out for what usually is someone's interpretation of an action taken by a competitor and has the ability to be applied for personal reasons not actual rules violations.

Would you care to give an example of an FTDR handed out for anything other than a rules violation? I'm very curious about this one...

[Chuck D]

The FTDR is for "inappropriate actions and unfair devices" correct ?

I'm aware of two competitors being issued FTDR penalties for not "taping targets and policing brass" at a local match a couple of months back.

Now...I ask you, is not policing brass and taping targets equivalent to "inappropriate actions or unfair devices" or was the issuance of FTDR penalties "punitive measures" for not listening to the SO or heeding their instructions to police brass and tape targets ?

Where was the "competitive advantage" gained by not policing brass or taping targets ...

This is what I'm talking about when I speak of "home rule" decisions and the "leeway" to act as the SO sees fit in matters not safety rule or course of fire/equipment rule related.

I'm not defending the act of not policing brass or taping targets mind you but it's hard NOT to argue FTDR penalties were assessed as a punitive measure by an SO that was "bent out of shape" because their requests were not being heeded. If an SO is willing and ABLE to take this extreme measure...under what other circumstances will they assess this type of penalty.

Edited May 24, 2014 by Chuck D

[BillR1]

What match was that and when? I have trouble believing that any ethical MD would let penalties like that stand if they were brought to his/her attention. IDPA HQ would certainly overrule that crap. Not taping targets or picking up brass is in NO way deserving of ANY shooting penalties, much less an FTDR. If the SO seriously gave out an FTDR for those actions ONLY, then they don't deserve to ever officiate another match.

I'm not saying all SOs are perfect. All cops are not perfect either. There are a few bad/over zealous ones. Like I said, I'm quite sure HQ would be very interested in the particulars of that event.

[deerassassin22]

^^^

So I'm curious?

What would you have done?

You are from Arizona imagine in July 110degrees and you have 2 or 3 guys that refuse to reset or paste is that fair to everyone else?

If it was me and they were told and just said nope not helping I would have DQ'ed them for Conduct in IDPA or USPA

And I'm not meaning to pick ANY FIGHTS just wondering

Edited May 24, 2014 by deerassassin22