ktm300 Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I say any top tier GM will not get the same calls I do or any other Joe Blow shooter. I was being fesicious about the 179. Heck it just happened to 3 top GM's at the W/S. I can't say it for any other RO but if I am 100%, I call it 100% of the time. My best friend, the world champ, the slowest guy in the match, no different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 (edited) I knew that was coming too, and I believe you too. I'm not saying the top GM's make a habit of doing this I'm sure they are safer shooters than most. I'm saying where I/we get the call they don't, most of the time. Also I won't find an RO that will agree with me. But I know some GM's that will, plus a ton of D tru M's? Edited October 24, 2014 by a matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Most GM's I run don't cut it all that close very often. Max's turn and draw was close and I am surprised he cut it that close. I think what you see is the fact that it is simpler to be 100% on slower shooters. In that way you may be correct. I call it if I see it. If they are so fast I can't be sure, I don't call it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Watch that video again, but this time observe the RO's observation or lack there of. He isn't even looking at the gun/holster area at the start of the stage. After Max starts and turns around the RO's head is motionless from an up/down perspective. If I was ROing someone on that stage, standing that close to them I would have to tilt my head down to be able to see the gun/holster area and would do so given the potential for breaking the 180 on the start. Watching the video myself, and observing when the gun starts to come out of the holster during the turning motion, the gun is NOT within the 180 before it is drawn. If I was ROing that stage, and observed that event it would be a DQ call all day long, no questions asked. But then again, if I was ROing that stage, I wouldn't be standing right on top of the shooter and I sure as hell would be focused on the gun/holster for the start of the stage. As I always say..... Some times the RO gods side in your favor, some times they do not. Max got lucky on that stage to not get caught breaking the 180 on the draw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 (edited) Most GM's I run don't cut it all that close very often. Max's turn and draw was close and I am surprised he cut it that close. I think what you see is the fact that it is simpler to be 100% on slower shooters. In that way you may be correct. I call it if I see it. If they are so fast I can't be sure, I don't call it. I agree with you 100%, it must be 100% or we can't call. I'm not just talking about this time with Max. This is the only close call I have even heard of him doing. As a fact he, besides this one if it applies, is not one of the GM's or local hot shot that get no calls. Maybe in should not single out the top GM's. But stuff happens. Non of us are perfect down here. Shooters or RO's... Edited October 24, 2014 by a matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glshooter Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 My point is not to ban uprange starts. El prez and other classifiers have targets down range, not right near the 180. My point is what does it bring to that stage or other stages with targets near the 180. Absolutely nothing. If that stage started facing down range, would it be of less quality? No. Does starting up range increases the possibility of an unsafe act? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Watch that video again, but this time observe the RO's observation or lack there of. He isn't even looking at the gun/holster area at the start of the stage. After Max starts and turns around the RO's head is motionless from an up/down perspective. If I was ROing someone on that stage, standing that close to them I would have to tilt my head down to be able to see the gun/holster area and would do so given the potential for breaking the 180 on the start. Watching the video myself, and observing when the gun starts to come out of the holster during the turning motion, the gun is NOT within the 180 before it is drawn. If I was ROing that stage, and observed that event it would be a DQ call all day long, no questions asked. But then again, if I was ROing that stage, I wouldn't be standing right on top of the shooter and I sure as hell would be focused on the gun/holster for the start of the stage. As I always say..... Some times the RO gods side in your favor, some times they do not. Max got lucky on that stage to not get caught breaking the 180 on the draw. Yep and that is why video is not allowed as evidence. The guy taking the video is 15' back and to the side and is probably zoomed in so......... No way you can call where the gun is from there. I was 3' to 4' back so I can be close enough for the shooter to hear the buzzer. It looks closer but again the angle is not perfect. As to my head not moving, that is true, I try to be as still as possible for the shooter when I am in their vision. Funny thing, stand with your head facing straight out and see how far down you can see with out moving it. I can see from his head to his feet from that angle all by moving my eyes. But I guess you were there and saw it so what do I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrydoc Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 KTM was your CRO Greg M from Australia those comments to the DQ'd guys sound like things he says over here No but I was able to work with him some. Seems like a "to the point" kind of person. The RM was the one making all the calls on the DQ's. yep he is " direct to the point guy" Heis my National NROI guy and looks after us in our State Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrydoc Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 (edited) I actually don't have issues with uprange starts here in OZ as we usually do them unloaded so IF someone breaks early there will be no "incident", what we seem to be having more of is stages that require more running backwards than we previously had, that's where i think issues come up more. But overall it's up to the competitor to be competent in all the aspects of prac shooting so it's down the the amount of practice they do. Edited October 25, 2014 by terrydoc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Here is Max either on or past the 180. I think he is past it but then again the Super Squad rarely gets DQ for stuff like this.image.jpg As others said, hard to know for sure where the 180 is from the photo. Also, remember that USPSA and IPSC rules differ considerably in this regard; USPSA calls it if the shooter is facing "up range" regardless of where the gun is pointing, whereas IPSC calls the gun direction only with no regard to the shooter's orientation. RO is right not to call it unless he is 100% sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 its very easy to miss a DQable violation when you are not looking at the gun or physically standing in the incorrect location which eliminates the ability to observe a possible violation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 its very easy to miss a DQable violation when you are not looking at the gun or physically standing in the incorrect location which eliminates the ability to observe a possible violation. It's likely an inaccurate assumption that the RO on the timer is the only one watching the gun in this case. What I usually see with starts like this is a second or even a third RO off to the side watching the gun. They are in the best position to spot the 180 break. I do remember several ROs positioned this way at the WS although I can't remember on this specific stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 The guy keeping score was tasked with watching the 180 on the right side of the bay at the draw. He did not make it back into position every time due to the quick turn over rate. I wonder if the Monday morning QB is taking into account Max's gun is not pointed directly ahead, even though it looks that way in the video. It is pointed well in front of him. In other words his hips can be short of 180 and the gun is still pointed past the 180. Video is 2D so it tends to flatten things out, especially when the angle is not straight on, or it is zoomed in, or both. But of course the guy a thousand miles away looking at a video where he doesn't even know if it is zoomed in, or exactly what angle it is on can make a call better than the two guys looking at it live. It must be wonderful to have that level of skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) What I find interesting in all this is his decision to turn counterclockwise wise to engage the first target which means he has to worry more about a 180 break then if he simply turned into the stage where the instant you turn your right foot and move your hip you protect yourself from a possible 180 break and can be very aggressive in the turn. I understand the first target is closer if you turn that way but .... I'm a little surprised he took the relatively more 'dangerous' route instead of taking the easy solution which would have allowed him not to be subject to a potential DQ ... Could he have been calculating that he could save 'significant' time by turning CCW and his 'status' would give him the benefit of the doubt to mitigate a potential DQ and therefore it was worth taking the risk? How many of the top shooters turned CCW on that stage? Edited October 28, 2014 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I turned CCW. And no I wasn't counting on my "status" to avoid a DQ. It was just the most efficient way to turn for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkm Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I seriously doubt that his "status" ever came into his thought process. In looking at the stage I could definitely see how it would have saved him some time by turning once instead of twice. I would think at that level of competition any time saved would be significant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 First shot for Max was < 1.4 seconds. I can't remember if it was 1.36 or 1.39. Most fast guys that turned towards their guns were in the 1.8 range. He also dropped 2 points on the first target and 1 on the other one on his way to the best stage time of the match at 11.81 but he did not win the stage as Shane Cooley was at 12.05 but only dropped 1 point. I can't remember which way Shane turned. I am pretty sure Saul turned towards his gun and shot it in 12.37 down 0 for 2nd at 99%. Max ended up 3rd at 98.6% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonglee0507 Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 Max should have played in the ipsc nationals after the world shoot. Eric played open and it would be nice to see them go head to head Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bockerSV Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 It would have been cool to see them shoot together for sure, but the stages for worlds and nationals were exactly the same, there are combined results on practiscore and Eric beat Max pretty handily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 All this turn into or away from the gun amuses me. The only difference is into the gun if you draw early the RO may have a harder time seeing it one is not better than the other Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 All this turn into or away from the gun amuses me. The only difference is into the gun if you draw early the RO may have a harder time seeing it one is not better than the other Not on that stage way it was set up. But, you were there and shot it, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Boit Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Back to "Nils case"... A buddy of mine was on that range when Nils shot the stage 28. There are no doubts that the reload came from a Front pocket. The RO didn't see it, good for Nils. And videos can not be considered as a proof, so ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerwas Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 All this turn into or away from the gun amuses me. The only difference is into the gun if you draw early the RO may have a harder time seeing it one is not better than the other Not on that stage way it was set up. But, you were there and shot it, right? Did he shoot the stage? Looking into the "8 ball", here comes the reply.... Signs point to no. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Back to "Nils case"... A buddy of mine was on that range when Nils shot the stage 28. There are no doubts that the reload came from a Front pocket. The RO didn't see it, good for Nils. And videos can not be considered as a proof, so ...... There is no doubt Nils reloaded from a pocket, the doubt is whether it was rear of his hip. It's difficult to tell, but I think it was. It was definitely not one of the front pockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 All this turn into or away from the gun amuses me. The only difference is into the gun if you draw early the RO may have a harder time seeing it one is not better than the other Not on that stage way it was set up. But, you were there and shot it, right? Did he shoot the stage? Looking into the "8 ball", here comes the reply.... Signs point to no. :-)No I didn't shoot the stage, our was more of a generic statement, 90° is the same either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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