ktm300 Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 This is my gripe with stage designers. Why start facing up range? What does it bring to that stage other than a DQ trap? Funny, I have no gripe at all with the up-range start. Ran >1200 shooters between the pre-match and main match with no DQ for breaking 90 at the start. The vast majority started turning towards their gun. I like the fact that it was an unloaded chamber start as that makes me feel a bit more comfortable with the people turning away from their gun. I thought the up-range unloaded chamber start added a lot to this 12 round stage. My two DQ's on that stage were people running on the angle towards the front of the stage and turning the gun across their bodies so it went well past the 90 degree intercept. Again I could not call anything that was close because of my angle so my guess is a lot of people got away with a little past 90. The two I called were +-120. I had one I should have called on breaking 90 running to the left along the back and one I should have stopped on the draw but I was just not 100% so I didn't call either one. Not one of the 1200+- people I ran on that stage, had their finger in the trigger guard while running. Pretty amazing! The only finger call I made was in the pre-match where a revolver guy just had no idea how to take his finger off the trigger while moving. He was in the cooper tunnel stage and I saw it in the first section but non 100%. Got in a better position for the second segment and stopped him after 3 steps. He told the RM he was reloading so it was OK. The RM asked him which rule he wanted to be DQed for? Again in the pre-match, one guy swept himself on the cigar box stage when he was picking up his second mag. Gun was on the right edge of the box when he grabbed the first mag, as he put up the first mag the gun moved to the center of the box and when he reached for the next mag I stopped him. Another guy on the cigar box stage got a bit lost and broke 90 then swept himself. All 3 RO's yelled STOP at the same time. Again the RM gave the guy a choice on which rule he wanted for his DQ. You can't stop people with bad habits from getting a DQ unless you dumb down the stages so much it is boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I think starts facing up range need to be hand above respective shoulders. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I think starts facing up range need to be hand above respective shoulders. Thanks Why? If we needed to be protected from ourselves then USPSA would adopt rules like no holster starts (GSSF) or with no movement with a loaded/cocked gun (SASS). We're USPSA. If the simple turn/draw movement is problematic, practice - practice - practice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 (edited) I have no problem with any start. It's the shooters that point their guns at people. So to answer your question I don't like getting a gun pointed at me. Plus I don't really like calling DQ's on shooters. Thanks Edited October 23, 2014 by a matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 ...So to answer your question I don't like getting a gun pointed at me. Plus I don't really like calling DQ's on shooters. ... Are you a RO? (just asking...) In order to get a broader perspective, could the RO crowd chime in about how many times they've had a gun pointed at someone during an uprange start? Is it common? Myself, I haven't seen it. But maybe others have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I have had one pointed at my foot as he came out early turning away from the gun. I waited for him to finish turning before I yelled STOP! He just dropped his head and started to unload. He knew it. I do like it when up-range starts are unloaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Once during an uprange start. Swept everyone in the bay at about waist level. That got the old ticker going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 ...So to answer your question I don't like getting a gun pointed at me. Plus I don't really like calling DQ's on shooters. ... Are you a RO? (just asking...) In order to get a broader perspective, could the RO crowd chime in about how many times they've had a gun pointed at someone during an uprange start? Is it common? Myself, I haven't seen it. But maybe others have? No, but I stayed at a holiday inn... Bla bla. Lol. I have ROed many stages and I don't see it a lot but that's just it, it only takes once. Some off the local match can get quite sketchy. But really I'm just putting in my thoughts and I can tell ya Im gonna shoot the stage the way the stage designer wants and be safe doing it. Like everyone will try to do also. I don't think is a major concern. Just thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRodriguez Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I've had a open blaster pointed at my chest and had to put my hand out to push the gun back to the 180 and side step to get it away from me several years ago at a local match. this was a case of a brand new shooter who's husband thought it would be great for her to shoot a match and the people who put on the match thinking that you have to expose the shooters to 180 traps on a continuous basis, never mind that none of people who shoot the local match never shoot at anything bigger than a sectional if that. my advise for a brand new shooter is to let the person who brought the new shoot be their RO. a normal RO will have a few years takes out of them and the person who brought the might have a idea what they are dealing with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glshooter Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 This is my gripe with stage designers. Why start facing up range? What does it bring to that stage other than a DQ trap? Well, the uprange start is both common and traditional in action shooting. It utilizes basic competition skills. It's not a "DQ trap" - the competitor knows exactly what's expected and has (should have) practiced the movements. I know it's common. But I have seen my share of dq's and scary moments from up range starts. I'm sure lots of others have as well. What does it bring to the stage? Nothing. Why is turning around an essential competition skill? That's like saying an essential competition skill is learning to touch your heels to a painted letter X on a stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I think the point is so you can't see where the targets are before the beep. Yeah, you know more or less, but how many of us know _exactly_ where we'll end up on a turn-n-draw? Putting an opaque wall in front of the shooter halfway does the same thing, but then they have to go somewhere before they can shoot anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrydoc Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 KTM was your CRO Greg M from Australia those comments to the DQ'd guys sound like things he says over here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 KTM was your CRO Greg M from Australia those comments to the DQ'd guys sound like things he says over here No but I was able to work with him some. Seems like a "to the point" kind of person. The RM was the one making all the calls on the DQ's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIIID Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I wonder how many times the "El Pres" has been shot since it was invented, millions? Up range start is just turning around, why do some have to make it so hard to do? Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Hands above respective shoulders, that is the diff. That .10 plus or so gives the shooter time to get turned that much more. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Looking at that video it does not look like a DQ to me I spent 15 years looking at images professionally every day. There's not enough detail to tell anything other than that Max is turning and has his hand on the gun.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 This is my gripe with stage designers. Why start facing up range? What does it bring to that stage other than a DQ trap? Uprange starts are a DQ trap? Huh? What they add is what every other element of practical shooting adds -- they're a distraction from shooting.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 One guy had a neat trick. He picked up an empty piece of brass in his gun hand. He had to drop it before he could go for his gun. It worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Well, most of the above is a bunch of opinions - from just a few people - that uprange starts are "dangerous" and "unnecessary" to the sport. On the other hand, it seems that uprange starts are used in a number of Classifiers, several with the choice of hand position, and also in a variety of match stage starts. Maybe it's time that somebody give us some real data - statistics, numbers - about the prevalence of adverse events during the uprange start. Like ADs, 180 violations, muzzle sweeps, and such. Not just a few anecdotes, but real numbers. I have the feeling that if this was actually so horribly dangerous the sport would run from it like it was the plague. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Ok so this is going to get close to politics so I am going to tread lightly. A lot of times people see something and say "they should fix that". They being government or whoever makes the rules. What normally follows is a mess of new rules and regulations that cause more harm than good. I tend to fall on the side of "if its not broken really bad, leave it alone". I think up-range starts fall in that category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron169 Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 It is the United States PRACTICAL Shooting Association. There may be a time in which your back is to a target and you have to turn and draw simultaneously. Can someone screw it up? Sure... But let's not over regulate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Uprange starts are no more inherently dangerous than having COFs where you have to run uprange anytime after the start, move right to left while making a reload (for right handers), or engage targets close to the 180 as you are running downrange. All present you with the opportunity to break the 180. The uprange start is not a trap if you simply follow the directions to "turn, then draw". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Looking at that video it does not look like a DQ to meI spent 15 years looking at images professionally every day. There's not enough detail to tell anything other than that Max is turning and has his hand on the gun.... If I may point out what I see, Max shoots for DAAu so he is running a DAA RaceMaster holster. The gun has been pulled 2+ inches up away from the DAA. This mean his trigger guard is exposed ( I'll say ) at the 179* mark. Because its Max, he gets the normal pass. Lol any way, if he was breaking the 180 holding the pistol in this position at Dairy Queen.. But like I said naaa, not gonna happen. All kidding aside he is so fast it would have been a guess and not 100% call. So carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 If his trigger was accessible at the "179 (degree) mark" it's not a 180 violation, no? And why say he was given the "normal pass"? It wasn't 180 degrees, you say... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 (edited) I say any top tier GM will not get the same calls I do or any other Joe Blow shooter. I was being fesicious about the 179. Heck it just happened to 3 top GM's at the W/S. Edited October 24, 2014 by a matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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