Why no bullet overlays?

[steel1212]

I don't see why you all play a game you don't like. I don't like to play basketball so I stay off the court. And you can suggest, complain and bitch all you like it's not going to change anything. IDPA is a private company and the BOD is gonna do what the BOD wants to do. The rewrite of the rule book should have made that CLEAR.

Craig if I didn't like it I wouldn't play. If I didn't like it I wouldn't complain I would just quit. Guess what I do like it. I do pay for my membership and I will complain when they do something I don't like.

[GmanCdp]

we need a like button...

[GmanCdp]

or... we all need to read this..

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0982780400/ref=as_li_ss_til?tag=actiresptrai-20&camp=213381&creative=390973&linkCode=as4&creativeASIN=0982780400&adid=1TY776FD2EWAMASP8T77&&ref-refURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.activeresponsetraining.net%2Frecommended-reading

[ihocky2]

I guess the one problem I envision with overlays is guys trying to get hits they didn't make. I've never shot a USPSA match that used overlays so I am not really familiar with them. But from a lot of what I am reading it is common for the overlay to be larger than the grease ring. If I walk up and see a grease ring with brown between it and the perf, but know that my bullets leave undersized holes is it fair to ask for it to be verified to get a hit, that visibly is not there. I am sure the argument is that the overlay is the official and correct scoring diameter, but in my mind not touching is not touching. If it is a close a questionable hit, I really have no reasonable argument why not to use them. But I think for IDPA to allow them there would need to be a defined set of guidelines on when to use them.

[Racinready300ex]

The problem is even though the greese ring doesn't touch the bullet did. You did make that hit, weather it was a down 0 or a non-threat. You should get credit for what your bullet hit, and the grease ring doesn't give you the hole story.

[Ty Hamby]

After returning from an out of town club today. Overlays are not the issue. Understanding the difference between touching or tearing and a grease ring vs. bullet diameter. If we can get people to understand and comprehend printed rules we will not have the need for overlays. As long as the wrong rules continue to be applied, overlays turn an incoherent fool into a brilliant geometric wizard.

[Bones]

Ty,

Are you suggesting that most humans can consistently resolve 0.001" differences with their naked eyes?

That is exactly what you are asking from SOs.

Bullets are relatively symmetrical at the 0.001" scale (as are the overlays), grease rings, tears, folds and the like are not - and since shoot through count in IDPA, any and/or all of those characteristics are highly variable. Bullet diameter is a much more stable and robust reference, isn't it?

IDPA measures gun weight with a scale, gun size with a box, bullet velocity with a chronograph, holster position with a stick, and magazine pouch height with a ruler, right? Why can’t any of those things be “eyeballed”? Aren't there a lot more bullet holes in a match than any of those other attributes?

This is exactly the same issue as cover calls vs. foot faults - asking humans to make positional or dimensional assessments quickly and consistently across a bay, a match and a country without the use of simple, obvious reference points. What training do IDPA SOs receive that judges in other sports do not?

Anecdotal but highly relevant - here are some stats from a recent major IDPA match I attended.

The PEs on stage 7 were predominantly cover calls. There were 2 points of cover in that stage.

Do you think the SOs were consistently assessing position across the match?

Stage

Total Procs

1

1

2

10

3

8

4

13

5

0

6

16

7

51

8

23

9

5

10

16

11

5

Totals / Overall Averages

148

Total Shooters in Match: 109

Having experienced other systems in Bianchi, USPSA and ICORE, I can tell you unequivocally that the use of simple reference aids (like overlays and foot faults) adds consistency and fairness without complication.

What experience or data can you share that suggests otherwise?

For the number of times you’d actually need them, overlays seem to be a simple and universally accepted solution to a common challenge.

Craig

[lugnut]

And, the hole is just part of the story, really. The overlay better represents the true size of the bullet that went through the target. When used properly, it gives great information, quickly.

That sums it up for me as well. However I have seen people not know how to use them properly...

And for folks that just say shoot better??? Really. There is a HUGE difference between a D and Mike in Production. You guys can take the Mike... I'll take the D when I deserve it. Or... a down three vs. Miss... and possibly an FTN.

Edited July 16, 2013 by lugnut

[Ty Hamby]

Ty,

Are you suggesting that most humans can consistently resolve 0.001" differences with their naked eyes?

That is exactly what you are asking from SOs.

Bullets are relatively symmetrical at the 0.001" scale (as are the overlays), grease rings, tears, folds and the like are not - and since shoot through count in IDPA, any and/or all of those characteristics are highly variable. Bullet diameter is a much more stable and robust reference, isn't it?

IDPA measures gun weight with a scale, gun size with a box, bullet velocity with a chronograph, holster position with a stick, and magazine pouch height with a ruler, right? Why can’t any of those things be “eyeballed”? Aren't there a lot more bullet holes in a match than any of those other attributes?

(...)

Craig

Craig, I was mis-understood.

I do absolutely believe we need to measure bullet holes to verify hits in or our. My point I failed to make was that no matter what we do, if SO's don't read the book and apply an accurate 5th grade understanding of the definition to the rule, then overlay or not it doesn't matter. I just returned from an event that was as loose as I have ever seen a club run. The previous match to that I again had tell an SO that he is mis-quoting a rule and that the rule states something different than he is saying. SO said grease ring must break the perforation, I corrected him and said must touch.

My post you commented on was posted after frustration to the fact that IDPA struggles to get competent officials, and if for no other reason an overlay will wise up a foolish man.

Yes, I absolutely desire to make sure through accurate measurements all IDPA equipment (barrels, holster, belts, bullets, brass, dust-covers, target separation, distance to hit, ect.) is legal in size, weight, and scored or measured as accurately as humanly possible out on the range. I am sick and tired of SO's telling me I didn't earn a hit that clearly was earned, and then to follow me around telling me how "lucky" I am. Puke! Most IDPA only shooters have no idea what a .356 hole actually looks like if they have never seen or used an overlay. Tiger Team got this one wrong.

[steel1212]

So did a little experiment today. This was called zero by the SO. The overlay doesn't touch and took me all if 20 seconds to verify that. The called zero stood of course as that is what the SO called it and overlays can't be used....

[sbcman]

The horror!!!

[Chills1994]

back in the 1980's, I shot small bore rifle every Wednesday night. This is what was used to score some of the targets:

The clear plastic part there^^^ is actually a magnifying glass, and when used it looks like this:

I am not saying that is necessarily what IDPA should use, but its use is considered the norm in longer running, more established shooting competitions.

[Dacsoft]

So did a little experiment today. This was called zero by the SO. The overlay doesn't touch and took me all if 20 seconds to verify that. The called zero stood of course as that is what the SO called it and overlays can't be used....

While that would help resolve some questionable hits, I am not sure I like the potential impact to the length of a match if it took you 20 seconds to determine if it was a good hit. I would rather give the shooter the benefit. Maybe for sanctioned matches.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[steel1212]

So did a little experiment today. This was called zero by the SO. The overlay doesn't touch and took me all if 20 seconds to verify that. The called zero stood of course as that is what the SO called it and overlays can't be used....

While that would help resolve some questionable hits, I am not sure I like the potential impact to the length of a match if it took you 20 seconds to determine if it was a good hit. I would rather give the shooter the benefit. Maybe for sanctioned matches.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

Soooo what your saying is your fine with incorrect calls just being thrown out there? It's not like every hit gets a over lay put on it. In other sports the shooter has to ask for it first. Then the overlay is applied and the hit is called. All in 20 seconds.

[v1911]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but it would appear that most of these arguments for overlays (something that will probably never be allowed anyways ) aren't for the shooters benefit, but to prevent the competitor any unnecessary advantage.

If its so close that it requires an overlay, it's already going to go in the shooter's favor. Why are we still beating this horse? Is venting about it going to change anything? It would appear most have already voiced our opinions prior to the finalization of the new rulebook. For one reason or another the BOD isn't budging on this.

[sirveyr]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but it would appear that most of these arguments for overlays (something that will probably never be allowed anyways ) aren't for the shooters benefit, but to prevent the competitor any unnecessary advantage.

If its so close that it requires an overlay, it's already going to go in the shooter's favor. Why are we still beating this horse? Is venting about it going to change anything? It would appear most have already voiced our opinions prior to the finalization of the new rulebook. For one reason or another the BOD isn't budging on this.

The overlay is for the benefit of every shooter. We all want the correct score. The overlay is used to help determine that score.

I am not sure why the IDPA BOD chose not to listen to the members, especially since they asked for our input.

[seanc]

Its just a club match.....lol

So did a little experiment today. This was called zero by the SO. The overlay doesn't touch and took me all if 20 seconds to verify that. The called zero stood of course as that is what the SO called it and overlays can't be used....

While that would help resolve some questionable hits, I am not sure I like the potential impact to the length of a match if it took you 20 seconds to determine if it was a good hit. I would rather give the shooter the benefit. Maybe for sanctioned matches.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

Soooo what your saying is your fine with incorrect calls just being thrown out there? It's not like every hit gets a over lay put on it. In other sports the shooter has to ask for it first. Then the overlay is applied and the hit is called. All in 20 seconds.

[BillR1]

If its so close that it requires an overlay, it's already going to go in the shooter's favor. Why are we still beating this horse? Is venting about it going to change anything? It would appear most have already voiced our opinions prior to the finalization of the new rulebook. For one reason or another the BOD isn't budging on this.

And this!!

[steel1212]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but it would appear that most of these arguments for overlays (something that will probably never be allowed anyways ) aren't for the shooters benefit, but to prevent the competitor any unnecessary advantage.

If its so close that it requires an overlay, it's already going to go in the shooter's favor. Why are we still beating this horse? Is venting about it going to change anything? It would appear most have already voiced our opinions prior to the finalization of the new rulebook. For one reason or another the BOD isn't budging on this.

The overlay is for the benefit of every shooter. We all want the correct score. The overlay is used to help determine that score.

I am not sure why the IDPA BOD chose not to listen to the members, especially since they asked for our input.

And this!!

[GmanCdp]

didn't IDPA bring out that $100.00 thing this time around? pulling the target or something..

[steel1212]

didn't IDPA bring out that $100.00 thing this time around? pulling the target or something..

That's a whole other thread....

[EkuJustice]

The "close goes in the shooters favor" doesn't go in EVERY shooter's favor. If you give a hit that was close but not quite there to the shooter who shot it that helps him but hurts every other shooter as he has a score he didn't earn.

[ihocky2]

I am okay either with or without overlays, I'll work with whichever the board chooses in the future. I do however think that the use of overlays should be limited to major matches only. Local matches are for practice and bragging rights. There are no trophies, no prizes, no money or anything else on the line at a local match. If you are worried about your score being wrong by a half second at a practice match, you are taking things a little too serious and intensely. Come 3:00 Sunday afternoon at a practice match I am thinking about getting home to relax and eat dinner with a few frosty hockey sodas, if the match is being drug out by someone asking for hits to the be checked on every stage it's going to take a lot of the fun out of it.

[bikerburgess]

I am okay either with or without overlays, I'll work with whichever the board chooses in the future. I do however think that the use of overlays should be limited to major matches only. Local matches are for practice and bragging rights. There are no trophies, no prizes, no money or anything else on the line at a local match. If you are worried about your score being wrong by a half second at a practice match, you are taking things a little too serious and intensely. Come 3:00 Sunday afternoon at a practice match I am thinking about getting home to relax and eat dinner with a few frosty hockey sodas, if the match is being drug out by someone asking for hits to the be checked on every stage it's going to take a lot of the fun out of it.

I have shot countless USPSA matches where overlays are used and have never had a match delayed by there use. in my experience on a squad of 10+ shooters running a 6 stage match we have to break out the overlays somewhere between zero and two times, for a total delay of about 30 seconds. that is not what I call a delay. also at a major match you see the overlay used at about the same rate for a similar delay.

[Racinready300ex]

I am okay either with or without overlays, I'll work with whichever the board chooses in the future. I do however think that the use of overlays should be limited to major matches only. Local matches are for practice and bragging rights. There are no trophies, no prizes, no money or anything else on the line at a local match. If you are worried about your score being wrong by a half second at a practice match, you are taking things a little too serious and intensely. Come 3:00 Sunday afternoon at a practice match I am thinking about getting home to relax and eat dinner with a few frosty hockey sodas, if the match is being drug out by someone asking for hits to the be checked on every stage it's going to take a lot of the fun out of it.

It can mean more than just .5 sec's. What if it's a pair of -3's in questions. The differance is .6+FTN and -4. Or it could be the differance between a hit or miss on a NT target. A tight hard cover shot could be the differance between -0 and -5.