Why no bullet overlays?

[Steve Koski]

most shooters do not realize that FMJ bullets leave a much smaller hole than the actual caliber. This seems kind of strange as it would have you believe that the most effective bullet is a wad-cutter?

Much smaller? Huh? When I've put calipers on grease rings from different bullet types I got essentially no difference.

If you've actually done this and aren't just offgassing, please post your data.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Steve Koski

[Steve RA]

I wouldn't think you'd get much of a "grease ring" from a FMJ compared to a lead bullet with grease on it. It's is true that the hole from a FMJ will not appear as large in diameter as one from the same caliber with a SWC.

[steel1212]

If I make it to the range I guess I'll take my calipers. FMJ steel leave a "grease" ring. It's not from grease but from powder residue I would presume. Also a semi wad cutter leaves a bigger visible hole than fmjs. Sure the FMJ makes the same size hole just doesn't tear it cleanly. So if your just eye balling its going to appear smaller. The overlay is .451 diameter so no matter what 45 hole you center it on it gives you the actual hole.

[a.roberts]

...USPSA... Those sports also explicitly give the competitor the benefit of the doubt. [/size]

Care to cite a rule to back that up?

[Steve Koski]

My calipers tell me that some bullets make holes that APPEAR bigger from a distance as some bullets remove more target flesh, but when the scoring grease ring is measured they are essentially the same size. Optical illusion.

[ktm300]

I have not measured with calipers, but from using overlays in USPSA I know that sometimes the hole / grease ring is not a consistent size for the same caliber bullet. I have gone to hits that looked close and put the overlay on them and it did not make a difference, other times it makes a big difference. Not sure why, just a good reason to check it with a tool instead of someones eyes. I think it takes less time to use an overlay, if you have it in your hand and know how to use it, than to sit there and try to look at it with the naked eye when it's close.

[ktm300]

...USPSA... Those sports also explicitly give the competitor the benefit of the doubt. [/size]

Care to cite a rule to back that up?

I don't think he will be able to come up with a rule like that in USPSA. It's a hit, or it's not, no benefit of the doubt.

[seanc]

...USPSA... Those sports also explicitly give the competitor the benefit of the doubt. [/size]

Care to cite a rule to back that up?

The use of an overlay on close hits is exactly that.

Its not a judgement call, its a repeatable measurement used to determine the actual score.

[BillR1]

Honestly I think the intent of the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt is if you really have to whip out an overlay to be sure just give the shooter the better score and not worry if it's within 3 cat hairs of the next scoring zone.

Exactly...just shoot well enough so it doesn't come down to a single line break or not.

Other sports still use judgment calls when there are "other" ways. The umpire in baseball still calls balls and strikes. Most of the time the TV camera shows they're right; once in awhile they miss one. That's life. And baseball players get PAID for their efforts. Is it really worth slowing down an entire match to play with silly overlays to maybe change a call or two?

"4.5.1. If the Safety Officer has to look at a target very closely for an extended time to determine if a shot has touched a better scoring line, the better value will be used. IDPA scoring will not use scoring plugs or overlays. When a Safety Officer has a reasonable doubt on a scoring call, award the better score to the shooter. "

That is (IMO) is pretty clear. The shooter gets the benefit on close calls, and no overlays are needed.

[seanc]

Honestly I think the intent of the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt is if you really have to whip out an overlay to be sure just give the shooter the better score and not worry if it's within 3 cat hairs of the next scoring zone.

Exactly...just shoot well enough so it doesn't come down to a single line break or not.

Other sports still use judgment calls when there are "other" ways. The umpire in baseball still calls balls and strikes. Most of the time the TV camera shows they're right; once in awhile they miss one. That's life. And baseball players get PAID for their efforts. Is it really worth slowing down an entire match to play with silly overlays to maybe change a call or two?

"4.5.1. If the Safety Officer has to look at a target very closely for an extended time to determine if a shot has touched a better scoring line, the better value will be used. IDPA scoring will not use scoring plugs or overlays. When a Safety Officer has a reasonable doubt on a scoring call, award the better score to the shooter. "

That is (IMO) is pretty clear. The shooter gets the benefit on close calls, and no overlays are needed.

yes, it is worth it.

[BillR1]

Honestly I think the intent of the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt is if you really have to whip out an overlay to be sure just give the shooter the better score and not worry if it's within 3 cat hairs of the next scoring zone.

Exactly...just shoot well enough so it doesn't come down to a single line break or not.

Other sports still use judgment calls when there are "other" ways. The umpire in baseball still calls balls and strikes. Most of the time the TV camera shows they're right; once in awhile they miss one. That's life. And baseball players get PAID for their efforts. Is it really worth slowing down an entire match to play with silly overlays to maybe change a call or two?

"4.5.1. If the Safety Officer has to look at a target very closely for an extended time to determine if a shot has touched a better scoring line, the better value will be used. IDPA scoring will not use scoring plugs or overlays. When a Safety Officer has a reasonable doubt on a scoring call, award the better score to the shooter. "

That is (IMO) is pretty clear. The shooter gets the benefit on close calls, and no overlays are needed.

yes, it is worth it.

Thankfully, IDPA doesn't share that view.

[sirveyr]

"Just shoot better and it won't matter."

Wow! This is the mentallity of a career IDPA shooter. IDPA will never be a legit shooting sport until it recognizes that it is a shooting sport.

[steel1212]

"Just shoot better and it won't matter."

Wow! This is the mentallity of a career IDPA shooter. IDPA will never be a legit shooting sport until it recognizes that it is a shooting sport.

Just shoot better and it won'tatter and I'll be national champ!!! Wish I would have figured that out a long time ago!!!

[BillR1]

Too funny!

I've lost close matches before where an "extra" line call here or there could've made a difference. IMO the match SOs have enough to do without listening to someone whining about a line call. Shooters are supposed to get the benefit of the doubt, but I tend to give the same thing to SOs. I don't like to believe someone would intentionally try to cheat me, so I VERY seldom question their scoring calls at all. If they see it different than me, that's fine. It's not like there's a huge difference in cash payout between 1st and 3rd place in a given division.

I guess I'm one of the rare people that still do this game for FUN...

[sirveyr]

I shoot for fun too, Bill. I just want competitors to get the scores that they earn. An overlay helps accomplish this.

[seanc]

I shoot for fun too, Bill. I just want competitors to get the scores that they earn. An overlay helps accomplish this.

What Chad said.

[BillR1]

If it's really that important to "get all of the points you've earned" at the expense of a slower match and the removal of human judgement, then I guess there are other games to play. The IDPA has chosen not to drag matches down in this way, and instead gives the SOs instructions that benefit the shooter in close calls. I prefer this method. YMMV.

[steel1212]

If it's really that important to "get all of the points you've earned" at the expense of a slower match and the removal of human judgement, then I guess there are other games to play. The IDPA has chosen not to drag matches down in this way, and instead gives the SOs instructions that benefit the shooter in close calls. I prefer this method. YMMV.

Have you ever seen a competent RO use a overlay? I'm guessing not since you believe it will drag the super fast IDPA reset time down. A competent RO with a overlay takes about a second to verify, if need be, the hit so that it is correct and not a, well I know you so ill give you that one.

[sbcman]

Ah, Corey, then that is the problem with overlays in IDPA. It would take the sheer joy away from SOs who bask in pressing targets from back to front and stewing over a really dark grease ring or really light grease ring for five minutes while giving you the benefit of the doubt.

I don't want to be responsible for taking that away from them.

Edited July 6, 2013 by sbcman

[BillR1]

I'm really curious why these threads SO frequently turn into an IDPA bash fest (and end up closed by the mods!) Why is it so important that IDPA be just like the other game? Is there not room for both games and/or methods? Many of us LIKE the new rules and IDPA in general. Why is that so hard to accept for some people? Makes no sense to me....

"4.5.1. If the Safety Officer has to look at a target very closely for an extended time to determine if a shot has touched a better scoring line, the better value will be used. IDPA scoring will not use scoring plugs or overlays. When a Safety Officer has a reasonable doubt on a scoring call, award the better score to the shooter. "

That's the rule, and it seems pretty clear. You don't have to like it, but you DO have to live by it to shoot IDPA. I'm fine with the rule, and I suspect most IDPA shooters are also. Complaining about it here SURE isn't going to change anything. If you'd rather have scores determined differently, there's a sport for you also. There's plenty of room for both.

Edited July 6, 2013 by BillR1

[ima45dv8]

I'm really curious why these threads SO frequently turn into an IDPA bash fest (and end up closed by the mods!)

Me, too.

[steel1212]

A but see bill I play IDPA. I play USPSA. I play 3 GUN. I play STEEL CHALLENGE. None of them use the same rules. I'm perfectly fine with that. What I can't understand is there is a better way to score targets other than the buddy system but people are so adement about not using it. Only reason I've heard is it will slow down the match which is simply untrue.

[BillR1]

A but see bill I play IDPA. I play USPSA. I play 3 GUN. I play STEEL CHALLENGE. None of them use the same rules. I'm perfectly fine with that. What I can't understand is there is a better way to score targets other than the buddy system but people are so adement about not using it. Only reason I've heard is it will slow down the match which is simply untrue.

IDPA obviously disagrees with you that overlays are "better". Being "better" is purely subjective and a matter of opinion. Both methods work; who's to say which is better? Bottom line is IDPA sets the rules for THEIR sport. Like the new rule book, some will agree and some won't. That's life.

[steel1212]

A but see bill I play IDPA. I play USPSA. I play 3 GUN. I play STEEL CHALLENGE. None of them use the same rules. I'm perfectly fine with that. What I can't understand is there is a better way to score targets other than the buddy system but people are so adement about not using it. Only reason I've heard is it will slow down the match which is simply untrue.

IDPA obviously disagrees with you that overlays are "better". Being "better" is purely subjective and a matter of opinion. Both methods work; who's to say which is better? Bottom line is IDPA sets the rules for THEIR sport. Like the new rule book, some will agree and some won't. That's life.

Let me word it differently. Overlays aren't as subjective and are more definite.

[BillR1]

A but see bill I play IDPA. I play USPSA. I play 3 GUN. I play STEEL CHALLENGE. None of them use the same rules. I'm perfectly fine with that. What I can't understand is there is a better way to score targets other than the buddy system but people are so adement about not using it. Only reason I've heard is it will slow down the match which is simply untrue.

IDPA obviously disagrees with you that overlays are "better". Being "better" is purely subjective and a matter of opinion. Both methods work; who's to say which is better? Bottom line is IDPA sets the rules for THEIR sport. Like the new rule book, some will agree and some won't. That's life.

Let me word it differently. Overlays aren't as subjective and are more definite.

I completely agree. They are more accurate. It's still a matter of opinion whether or not they're "better" for an IDPA match. If they slow the match down or affect it in other ways, then are they really better overall? IDPA doesn't seem to think so...