Does a Glock 17L fit in the "box"?

[Joe4d]

Lets just ignore all the rules so we dont chase off a shooter who wont read the rule book and or thinks they are special and cant be bothered by the rules and probably doesnt have the time or money to be a steady competitor, or chase off the steady shooter fed up with "local" rules or Match directors that make up their own rules.

I tend to agree with shokre21. IDPA is a game. A game played with specific items. just like every other sporting event or game in the world I can think of. Why on earth do we have this attitude that we have to make all kinds of concessions. THEY want to shoot OUR game. Get the right gear dude. Bowling alley wont let you bowl with oversized balls. Basket ball courts wont let you play with cleats.

Local rules, shooter to shooter inconsitencies, and clubs just doing whattever they want is chasing away more dedicated shooters than the constant rule ignoring is bringing in.

[Dragon11]

I still remember the first time hearing about the shooting sports. Then I looked into it and read articles and watched videos. It amazed me to see a video of people shooting at IDPA or USPSA matches. I was star struck at the skill level of some of those guys and gals. It peaked my interest enough to actually talk to a friend at a local gun store who told me more about it, and then, convinced me to go and shoot the match. I'm not afraid to admit it, but when I went and shot a match for the first time, I was nervous as hell. To this day, 20 years later, it was one of the best experiences I ever had. I couldn't imagine what that experience would have been like showing up and being told I was breaking the rules and was cheating.

To the 45 to 46 folks who wrote posts about promoting the shooting sports, and creating an experience for a new shooter that they will have a positive memory of for the rest of there life, +1 and . To the small few who don't feel the same, go take your ball and play somewhere else!

Edited March 2, 2013 by Dragon11

[Jim Watson]

The OP finally said, post #41,

I have plenty of other guns

That changes things.

If all he had was a G17L, I would make him welcome.

If he has a plain G17, etc., etc., I would tell him to be sure to bring it.

[Rick88]

+ 1 Its odd how a yes or no question can spin out of control, but I understand it in this thread.

[warpspeed]

There are certain rules that have to be followed no matter what in order for the game to be what it is. Things like cover, retention, engagement order, etc.

I don't see an issue with a gun that is not quite there per the rules. I would let a guy shoot a match with is USPSA Limited rig but not against the SSP guys or the ESP or the CDP. It doesn't meet the criteria so he gets put in a category all by himself. Maybe BUG or SSR if there are no competitors hooting those that day.

We need to do everything we can to encourage others to shoot.

Oh, and Shokr21, your screen name accompanied by the avatar is offensive. This is a family friendly forum and I suggest you change the avatar.

[spanky]

How can a thread whose only proper response have only two letters (no) turn into 3 pages?

[Steve RA]

It would appear that you and Shokr21 are in a small minority on this question.

[Nik Habicht]

. Lighten up. I say let open guns shoot if they want in a fun/gamer/noscore/whatever division at club matches.

I looked in the rulebook and didn't see those divisions, got a page number?

Better read the USPSA rulebook again then, because it addresses it.....

Here's what happens when you show up with an open gun to shoot production -- first we ask if you know what you're doing. If you insist on shooting an open blaster in PD, after the first stage you're moved to Open, for violating PD division guidelines. Then once we notice your gear busts the few open equipment rules -- probably for overlength mags -- well, now you're just shooting for fun.....

And yes, there are rules to cover that. What I won't do is turn that shooter away -- if he wants to shoot the match for fun, he's welcome. We'll mentor him, and let him know what he needs to do to get his gear compliant so he can compete for score and prize money....

But hey, what do I know?

[Nik Habicht]

I'm not trying to be a prick, or internet tough guy, but this stuff irks me. Show up to a pickup basketball game with a medicine ball and you'll get laughed away. Bring a rugby ball to a flag football game, see what happens.

The fact is you are coming off like a prick.

You're analogy above might be salient if the OP showed up at his first match with an RPG.

I've been shooting USPSA for 15+ years and yes we have rules that apply to which guns are legal and are not and I have never seen a first timer chased off due to the fact that his gun was not legal. Our games are expensive ( gun, gear, BB's, etc.)so why make it harder for a first timer. Let the man shoot for fun. I know of at least 15 active shooters, who now are legal, who would not be with our club if we we took the same hard nosed stance as you.

Pat

Awesome......I can show up at your IDPA club and shoot an Open gun in Production or a Limited gun in SSTK. sweet

Strick,

Apply just a wee bit of common sense. Don't try to portray me as somebody who would allow that to happen.

Pat

Then don't compare what happens at a USPSA match to a IDPA match. There is always a division for every gun in USPSA, that is not the same for IDPA

Nope, actually that's not a true statement.....

[Nik Habicht]

I've said countless times I'd let the guy shoot my gun or try to find someone who had similar equipment to his gun to do the same, I can't do much more for the guy.

Thanks but I don't want to shoot anyone else's reloads......

How exactly are the rules broken if you welcome the guy, explain what the rules are about in terms of equipment divisions, and what he needs to do to get compliant, and then let him shoot the match for fun, not official score, since he made the drive out? I used to be involved in the running of two different IDPA monthly matches, and we converted a lot of newbies into regular, compliant competitors -- not by bending the rules and letting them shoot for score, but also not by turning them away at the gate.....

[Nik Habicht]

Cost of IDPA:

Gun: $500

Holster: $60

Mag Pouch: $20

Total: $580

IDPA is not an expensive sport, poor argument. You don't buy a football helmet if you're going to play hockey!

Really? You're not helping your cause when you say that $580 is inexpensive.......

[Nik Habicht]

Person A buys full blown limited gun but puts a comp on it has 140mm mags, where does he shoot at your club? Open right?

but he doesn't know any better, he didn't know if he was going to shoot open he should have gotten an optic and a big stick, can he please just shoot limited this one time?!

Sure -- for one stage, after which he's moved to open....

I think I'm understanding IDPA's 18 round per stage limit now...... :P

[Nik Habicht]

Shokr,

Your planning and preparation for your first match are commendable. I truly wish more people would (or could) make that a common reality. But the true fact is, it isn't common. Far from it. If for example, you hadn't had access to an internet connection, hadn't read the rules on-line, and showed up less than fully aware and prepared, we'd cut you a little slack because (1.) we would want you to come back, and (2.) anyone at the match who expressed any fear that you'd beat them would never live it down.

What Mark said. Like you I was overly prepped for both my first IDPA and USPSA matches, and showed up with legal gear. During a ten year tenure of actively being involved in running matches though, I realized that level of preparation as being unusual. Add in the politics of host club members, sometimes members of the board of directors, showing up for their first match with less than ideal or legal gear, and you learn how to be mentally flexible enough, to find a compromise that meets the needs of the new competitors while upholding the integrity of the competition.

[Nik Habicht]

And just food for thought: That concession we made in letting a board member shoot the match for fun -- well he decided the game wasn't for him. But a year or so later, when there was an issue about continuing IDPA matches at that club, he became one of our fiercest supporters. I asked him why, and he told me point blank that while he realized that day that competition wasn't for him, he'd enjoyed himself on the range, and he'd gotten a sense of why this game was important for us.

He swayed a number of his colleagues on the board of directors -- can you imagine what the outcome might have been if we'd simply told him to get lost?

[Shokr21]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

He does have other guns, as I'd assumed.

I only shoot IDPA a couple times a year, otherwise I shoot production and SS in USPSA, but that was a nice slight by whoever had to mention those "passionate" IDPA folk.

Follow the rules, they're fairly simple to read and easy to follow.

[Craig N]

Most clubs will just list you as FUN if you don't have equipment that meets the rules. At least, that is what we do.

I wish our club did that! I could use my RMR'd Glock every now and then with my carry holster.

[RufusTFirefly]

Just curious here. If a guy shows up for the local match and wants to shoot his USPSA .40 caliber single stack in CDP, how would you handle it? Our local club is going to start shooting IDPA real soon and I only have single stacks in .40. I really don't want to download the rounds to minor and shoot ESP.

Thanks

[cnote]

Just curious here. If a guy shows up for the local match and wants to shoot his USPSA .40 caliber single stack in CDP, how would you handle it? Our local club is going to start shooting IDPA real soon and I only have single stacks in .40. I really don't want to download the rounds to minor and shoot ESP.

Thanks

shoot esp for score, or cpd for fun/no score

[cnote]

I'm so sick of the coyboy's v's the tactical v's the hunters v's the speed guys. We need to stick together or fall apart at the hands of

those opposed to the 2nd amendment!

Greeting him with open arms and allowing him to shoot the match is sticking together.

Don't take yourself so seriously... the only serious part of this is SAFETY FIRST

[Strick]

. Lighten up. I say let open guns shoot if they want in a fun/gamer/noscore/whatever division at club matches.

I looked in the rulebook and didn't see those divisions, got a page number?

Better read the USPSA rulebook again then, because it addresses it.....

Awesome, now the USPSA rule book governs IDPA matches?

I do have to ask a question............If the view is that non legal equipment is allowed in an effort to "grow the sport" what sport is it that you are trying to grow? Does it help to grow the sport when a shooters first exposure is "yeah, IDPA is great, we have rules and stuff but we ignore them when it is convenient"?

Oh one other question, do the shooters that compete in the "fun/no score/illegal gun" divisions get their time recorded, their points counted, and then have them posted? Would they be as likely to break the rules if they never knew what their performance was?

[EkuJustice]

I think the tough stuff come back when you have legal gear is a very poor way to grow the sport. There is a difference in the guy who shoots all the time wanting to shoot an "illegal" gun and a new guy coming out to try it out with what he has and being told sorry can't shoot your gun doesn't fit the bill. The difference is IDPA has no "catch all" division like USPSA where if someone brings it out there is some place for them to shoot. A guy brings his compact glockC out in uspsa he gets to shoot the match in open due to the compensated barrel and will usually be told if you wanna shoot production you can get a non compensated lone wolf barrel for 100 bucks and are good to go. Or the guy comes out with his springfield 1911 with the 5 inch bull barrel In USPSA he gets to shoot in Limited 10. By the Strict rules in IDPA he goes away doesn't shoot and tells others what a bunch of jerks they are for sending him packing and refusing to let him shoot. If we want to grow the sport turning away shooters is not the way to do it. Lump them in a fun category etc and let them try it out. If they decide they like it after a couple matches then they will work on getting their gear made compliant to the sport.

Not trying to start a USPSA vs IDPA thing

[Nik Habicht]

I'm not trying to be a prick, or internet tough guy, but this stuff irks me. Show up to a pickup basketball game with a medicine ball and you'll get laughed away. Bring a rugby ball to a flag football game, see what happens.

The fact is you are coming off like a prick.

You're analogy above might be salient if the OP showed up at his first match with an RPG.

I've been shooting USPSA for 15+ years and yes we have rules that apply to which guns are legal and are not and I have never seen a first timer chased off due to the fact that his gun was not legal. Our games are expensive ( gun, gear, BB's, etc.)so why make it harder for a first timer. Let the man shoot for fun. I know of at least 15 active shooters, who now are legal, who would not be with our club if we we took the same hard nosed stance as you.

Pat

Awesome......I can show up at your IDPA club and shoot an Open gun in Production or a Limited gun in SSTK. sweet

. Lighten up. I say let open guns shoot if they want in a fun/gamer/noscore/whatever division at club matches.

I looked in the rulebook and didn't see those divisions, got a page number?

Better read the USPSA rulebook again then, because it addresses it.....

Awesome, now the USPSA rule book governs IDPA matches?

Well, in a perfect world that would be a good thing, right?

No, seriously, I apparently picked up the wrong post to quote -- I meant to respond to your post about shooting an open blaster in PD or a Limited gun in SSTK.....

I do have to ask a question............If the view is that non legal equipment is allowed in an effort to "grow the sport" what sport is it that you are trying to grow? Does it help to grow the sport when a shooters first exposure is "yeah, IDPA is great, we have rules and stuff but we ignore them when it is convenient"?

I think letting them shoot for fun, while explaining the intricacies of the sport in question will do more to make them want to return with compliant than telling them, so sorry, you bought the wrong gear, go home.....

Oh one other question, do the shooters that compete in the "fun/no score/illegal gun" divisions get their time recorded, their points counted, and then have them posted? Would they be as likely to break the rules if they never knew what their performance was?

Nice statisticians do in fact provide one-time results for newbies shooting for fun -- I used to highlight them and mention that they were unofficial results, or I'd just send them to that particular shooter, so he could see where he placed, and then send a set of results without his to the rest of the competitors....

I've spent the better part of a decade trying to grow the shooting sports -- but I could be all wrong about everything.....

[thermobollocks]

My local IDPA club will just score you as outlaw in a situation like this. You'll simply have no standing against the other divisions, because you're not sticking to the same constraints as they do. Granted, if you keep bringing a comped S_I in a J-hook, you'll get mocked a bit.

If you keep a gun that's too big next to your bed, or want to shoot a .22lr until you feel more confident, everyone would rather you shoot than not shoot.

[racerba]

Seeing these post on not bending the rules and not letting them shoot reminds me of zero-tolerance rules...people forget to or prefer to not use their common sense...

[GigG]

There's no rule in the book that says a person can't hang with a squad and there is no rule that the same person can't shoot the stage after the squad is done and not have there score count for squat.