Should USPSA allow 8-shot minor in Revolver Division?

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

(SNIP)

The game today is dominated by high capacity guns and naturally the COFs have evolved to suit. Which is a good and natural thing mostly, but it might be that some shooters are left in the cold by the perceived need of most to blast large numbers of projectiles downrange. And in my opinion, that's where the revolver problem comes in - the revolver is de-facto eliminated from the sport as a viable tool for the game. If revolvers were written out of the rule book I don't think the vast majority of shooters would notice or care. The sport would continue.

(SNIP)

I will never forget my first major match. I was told on one stage "You really don't belong here with that" pointing to my revolver. The guy was not joking. Your statement about the sport evolving to Hi Cap is more true than many realize.

Not all of us are happy that it has become a high capacity play ground.

I miss the skill tests of the short round stages that are NOT classifiers, and the Standards. That was like winning a match all of it's own if you won the standards!

Call me crazy, but I always liked the 50 yard PPC stage

[Carmoney]

So, where does this stand? It seems like the majority of people either favor trying this, or don't care either way. What's the next step?

How about the 8 shot supporters who actually have them let it be known what matches they can attend. Then the Revo crowd could make an attempt to gather and compete. One where someone could get the scores of all of the 8 shot guys and have them tabulated with the 6 shot Revo's in a side bar. I say that due to the 8 shots would have to be in another Division as it stands now. A State/Sectional Match would be the 1st choice due to it being more representative of what COF's we would see in the future. At a club level we may be able to convince a few clubs to overlook the 8 shots and let them compete in Revo, without classifiers, the problem with that would be the wide variations in skill. A larger official match would show a more accurate representation of finishes if we could get together.

It may mean some of us might not win say Production with an 8 shot but it would give us some data to work with.

Mike, is Iowa going to hold a Sectional? There is the Great Plains, and I haven't heard of Kansas yet.

I don't have an 8 shot, but I'd do this if you are willing. If Iowa has a Sectional I'll try to get there and if you'd let me borrow your 8 Shot I'd shoot Production against you with your 6 shot (you'd be in Revo though), if Kansas holds one we would just reverse it. If Kansas doesn't we could meet at the Great Plains and switch. If we do I'll see if I can't bring a few extra Revo's up, might have to bribe them but might just be worth it.

What do you say?

Dave, you're more than welcome to come up and shoot the Iowa Sectional (June 29-30, Ankeny Iowa). I was actually planning to shoot Production with my XD, but would be happy to switch to Revo and shoot my 625, or I would shoot an 8-shooter in L-10 (or whatever)--either way you want to run the test is fine with me. None of my 8-shot revolvers are Production legal. (You know what I like to do to hammer spurs!) You're welcome to shoot one of my 8-shots and I will supply the ammo. I have committed to work the match, so I will presumably be shooting with the ROs on Friday. If you want to shoot one of my 8-shots, come a day early and we can find a place for you to familiarize with the gun, sight in, etc. You're welcome to stay at my place, but be warned the accommodations aren't anything fancy!

Right now I can't commit to the Great Plains Sectional. I have a jury trial starting the Monday after that match, and if the case doesn't get resolved, I will be here at the office working that whole weekend.

[TGO]

Shot Tuesday night steel match last night with the 8 shooter. 5 revo's, 2 GM, 3 C class. 144 total shooters. Both Dan Furbee and I shot 8 shooters, others not sure of. I was 14th overall. Shot pretty well, one bad return to box and a couple less than stellar loads. The match is decidedly not 6 shot neutral and not really 8 shot either.

I think the way to get revo more popular is going to be making matches 6 shot neutral, not 8 regardless of which you choose. That will make them more competitive with the other low cap classes. That may be necessary at the club level.

It is hard to choose the revo option if you care about your finish and score overall, as I do. If TNS required 6 shot capacity, I wouldn't really wanna shoot it, doing 4-5 loads per stage rather than 2-3.

If the whole Stand alone nationals works, we gotta consider a national revolver series. Revo only USPSA or something.

Ok Mike, there's a new thread for ya?

[bdpaz]

If the whole Stand alone nationals works, we gotta consider a national revolver series. Revo only USPSA or something.

How about a more general Old Timer Classic USPSA side match series? 6 shot neutral, make Major back up to 175, short stages with long and difficult shots where minor hurts. Then improve it by adding Super Major (PF to be determined) for big bore revos requiring one hit per target and score each hit x2.

[scottyinAZ]

Rob, i just visited the uspsa rule book. you were indeed correct Sir!!

-- USPSA REVO RULES

1 Minimum power factor for Major 165

2 Minimum power factor for Minor 125

3 Minimum bullet weight No

4 Minimum bullet caliber / cartridge case

length

.38 cal. / 9x19 mm (0.354” x 0.748”)

5 Minimum bullet caliber for Major No

6 Minimum trigger pull No

7 Maximum handgun size No

8 Maximum magazine length Not applicable

9 Maximum ammunition capacity No, maximum of 6 rounds fired

before reload

THANKS FOR THE LESSON!

i must have missed that. i prefer a k or L frame gun cut for clips over a 625 any day!

scott shepherd

[pskys2]

Looks like Rio Salado is running a serious match to test this theory out. Cudows

Will be interesting to see the results.

Hope they post it for all of us to review.

[SauconValley Shooter]

Good Morning,

I am sorry if someone already suggested this, as I have not read all twenty pages of this thread, but do we need a special match to test the outcome of 8 shot verses 6 shot? All we need are a group of 6 shot revolver major shooters and an evenly class matched group of L10 shooters using 8 shot revolvers in minor at one match. I would think that the most difficult part would be getting enough shooters to make the results valid. If our local matches allow it, those of us with both guns could shoot both guns in one match and compare the results.

[COF]

Ken, that's kind of what they're doing at Rio Salado

[TGO]

Good Morning,

I am sorry if someone already suggested this, as I have not read all twenty pages of this thread, but do we need a special match to test the outcome of 8 shot verses 6 shot? All we need are a group of 6 shot revolver major shooters and an evenly class matched group of L10 shooters using 8 shot revolvers in minor at one match. I would think that the most difficult part would be getting enough shooters to make the results valid. If our local matches allow it, those of us with both guns could shoot both guns in one match and compare the results.

That's exactly what we are doing this weekend. It is Steve Leach's normal monthly USPSA event at which we are trying to get all our revolver shooters to shoot a USPSA legal gun and enter in Revolver division. We have a few who normally shoot in L10 with 8 shooters because of non production legal holsters and they do not want to load after 6.

In the afternoon we will shoot the same match, no changes, with an 8 shooter. Hopefully we will have lots of otherwise USPSA legal entrees and probably a few open 8 shooters.

The purpose is to test whether the 8 minor or the 6 major will be better. Now we know it is only one match, and I expect it too be very much 8 round favorable, but I'm looking to see what a difference it may have. I'll shoot both guns.

Another interesting item will be how many shooters will show up to shoot which match. That may be more important than the 6V8 thing. If we get as I suspect many more in the afternoon, it may point out something I have been feeling; that many shooters (including myself) would rather not shoot revolver in a match against mostly shooters in other divisions, and that more shooters want to use the 8 minor option. I think in a revolver only match that allows 8 shooters we are going to have a pretty good turnout. We shall see? If you are in the Area, come and shoot!!

Edited February 15, 2013 by TGO

[pskys2]

Good Morning,

I am sorry if someone already suggested this, as I have not read all twenty pages of this thread, but do we need a special match to test the outcome of 8 shot verses 6 shot? All we need are a group of 6 shot revolver major shooters and an evenly class matched group of L10 shooters using 8 shot revolvers in minor at one match. I would think that the most difficult part would be getting enough shooters to make the results valid. If our local matches allow it, those of us with both guns could shoot both guns in one match and compare the results.

That's exactly what we are doing this weekend. It is Steve Leach's normal monthly USPSA event at which we are trying to get all our revolver shooters to shoot a USPSA legal gun and enter in Revolver division. We have a few who normally shoot in L10 with 8 shooters because of non production legal holsters and they do not want to load after 6.

In the afternoon we will shoot the same match, no changes, with an 8 shooter. Hopefully we will have lots of otherwise USPSA legal entrees and probably a few open 8 shooters.

The purpose is to test whether the 8 minor or the 6 major will be better. Now we know it is only one match, and I expect it too be very much 8 round favorable, but I'm looking to see what a difference it may have. I'll shoot both guns.

Another interesting item will be how many shooters will show up to shoot which match. That may be more important than the 6V8 thing. If we get as I suspect many more in the afternoon, it may point out something I have been feeling; that many shooters (including myself) would rather not shoot revolver in a match against mostly guns of other divisions. I think in a revolver only match that allows 8 shooters we are going to have a pretty good turnout. We shall see? If you are in the Area, come and shoot!!

But being 8 shot friendly is where USPSA is at right now and it's a good thing to not change that for this test.

It should point out if there is, or isn't, enough of an advantage in normal USPSA matches for the 8 shot to overshadow the minor scoring handicap,.

But be crafty Rob, you may have to take a few longer, harder shots vs a standing reload in regular Revolver! Unless you already have your reloads down under 1.5 seconds.

[Flexmoney]

...be crafty... you may have to take a few longer, harder shots vs a standing reload in regular Revolver!

Crafty...that is the word that fits shooting with 6. It's a craft.

[toothguy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_mlNTBhXkE

I think this is a good example, disregard the light strikes and imagine shooting a 6 shot with this same course.

[wheelie]

Good Morning,

I am sorry if someone already suggested this, as I have not read all twenty pages of this thread, but do we need a special match to test the outcome of 8 shot verses 6 shot? All we need are a group of 6 shot revolver major shooters and an evenly class matched group of L10 shooters using 8 shot revolvers in minor at one match. I would think that the most difficult part would be getting enough shooters to make the results valid. If our local matches allow it, those of us with both guns could shoot both guns in one match and compare the results.

That's exactly what we are doing this weekend. It is Steve Leach's normal monthly USPSA event at which we are trying to get all our revolver shooters to shoot a USPSA legal gun and enter in Revolver division. We have a few who normally shoot in L10 with 8 shooters because of non production legal holsters and they do not want to load after 6.

In the afternoon we will shoot the same match, no changes, with an 8 shooter. Hopefully we will have lots of otherwise USPSA legal entrees and probably a few open 8 shooters.

The purpose is to test whether the 8 minor or the 6 major will be better. Now we know it is only one match, and I expect it too be very much 8 round favorable, but I'm looking to see what a difference it may have. I'll shoot both guns.

Another interesting item will be how many shooters will show up to shoot which match. That may be more important than the 6V8 thing. If we get as I suspect many more in the afternoon, it may point out something I have been feeling; that many shooters (including myself) would rather not shoot revolver in a match against mostly shooters in other divisions, and that more shooters want to use the 8 minor option. I think in a revolver only match that allows 8 shooters we are going to have a pretty good turnout. We shall see? If you are in the Area, come and shoot!!

I don't think its going to change much if we stick to 8 neutral COFs. To level the playing field for 6 shooters, it takes 6 neutral stages. The way I see it, this is not a detriment to those with 8 shot capacity, simply a leveling to give all participants the same chance.

Just to throw in another variable to consider - how about 8 Major? Those 627s are after all -- .357 Magnums.

All that said, I very much appreciate and encourage any experimentation in this matter.

[COF]

As I see it, if you have all major or all minor, the advantage automatically goes to the higher capacity. With major/minor there is a risk/reward factor for higher points vs faster shooting.

Edited February 15, 2013 by COF

[alecmc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_mlNTBhXkE

I think this is a good example, disregard the light strikes and imagine shooting a 6 shot with this same course.

Been subscribed to his channel for a while, good shooter.

And you're right, with a 6 shooter you'd be doing a standing reload at every array on that first stage.

[Chills1994]

be back in a second...

[Chills1994]

Good Morning,

I am sorry if someone already suggested this, as I have not read all twenty pages of this thread, but do we need a special match to test the outcome of 8 shot verses 6 shot? All we need are a group of 6 shot revolver major shooters and an evenly class matched group of L10 shooters using 8 shot revolvers in minor at one match. I would think that the most difficult part would be getting enough shooters to make the results valid. If our local matches allow it, those of us with both guns could shoot both guns in one match and compare the results.

the thread you're looking for is here:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=168441#entry1870891

some jerk, chills1994, is some know-it-all statistics guy who thinks he knows how to set up experiments and research design. ignore anything he says in that thread.

[COF]

No problem

[jhgtyre]

Good Morning,

I am sorry if someone already suggested this, as I have not read all twenty pages of this thread, but do we need a special match to test the outcome of 8 shot verses 6 shot? All we need are a group of 6 shot revolver major shooters and an evenly class matched group of L10 shooters using 8 shot revolvers in minor at one match. I would think that the most difficult part would be getting enough shooters to make the results valid. If our local matches allow it, those of us with both guns could shoot both guns in one match and compare the results.

the thread you're looking for is here:

http://www.brianenos...41#entry1870891

some jerk, chills1994, is some know-it-all statistics guy who thinks he knows how to set up experiments and research design. ignore anything he says in that thread.

JUST in THAT thread?

[Chills1994]

you still read everything at the other link, didn't you?

[cooper_999]

Just worked me through the 20 pages of this very, very interesting thread. How could I miss it for such a long time...

I´ve started a initiative on the global village forum some months ago to get a rule change of the IPSC Revo rules. Maybe some of you noticed it. My post there was:

As discussed here on GV several times in the past, there should be a modification to the revolver division rules.

As I've written before, my idea is, to open this Division up to all kind of revolvers and to become more attractive for revo shooters from other disciplines like Bullseye, PPC, Bianchi, Icore or Steelchallenge. Custom build PPC revolvers with heavy barrel, underlug-weights and other modifikations like titanium cylinders etc. should not be a problem in future. The rules should be less complicated and confusing -> see the last discussions like "can I modify my cylinder to reduce weight because this is a improvement for the trigger function" or "can I use a different, longer barrel to improve the sight" etc.

Just more like the standard division. Simplification will reduce need for discussions and interpretations.

In my opinion, the six shot-reload and open sight rule is limiting enough. I don't want to start the discussion about "let 8-shooters shoot to capacity" again. I think, we should keep the existing regulation at this point as written in 14. If we would drop this, I think, this will start a equipment race and all serious competitors in this division will have to get also a 8-shooter to stay competitive. Time-to-time IPSC revolver competitors will feel "outdated" with their "usually used for bullseye six shooters" and will loose their interest in this division.

I would propose the following changes:

Appendix D5 / Special conditions:

14. No limit on cylinder capacity. A maximum of 6 rounds to be fired before reloading. Violations will incur one procedural penalty for each shot in excess of 6 rounds actually fired before reloading.

15. Any complete revolver (or a revolver assembled from components),

produced by an OFM and available to the general public (except prototypes)is permitted.

16. Modifications such as weights or other devices to control and/or to reduce recoil are prohibited.

17. Modifications which are permitted are limited to:

17.1 Replacement of, or modification to, sights, hammers and cylinder releases;

17.2 Replacement barrels, provided the barrel length, weight and profile are the same as the OFM standard;

17.3 Cosmetic enhancements (e.g. plating, checkering of frames, custom grips);

17.4 Chamfering and/or modifications to the cylinder to accept “Moon Clips”;

18. "Self-loading" revolvers with retractable slides are prohibited in this Division.

This topic should be placed as a motion in the next possible General Assembly

Any comments?

Also in this thread (http://ipsc.invision...showtopic=15544) the call for 6-Major / 8-Minor came up, which I tried to avoid first. I´m still unsure, if we would see more shooters with allowing 8-shooters shot to capacity. But in between, I came to the point more and more, that we even wouldn´t loose anything by giving it a try.

I really would appreciate your opinions in the thread on Global Village forum. The more, the better. It´s not only a USPSA thing - it´s a global thing.

Sascha Back

[ClaytonWelch]

It would most definitely increase participation because you have guys that don't make and/or don't want to make major scoring that would shoot in your minor scoring division. To me, at least with a majority of stages that I see, 8 shots won't be THAT big of an advantage over 6 shots though.

I voted the same, because I will still only shoot the 8 shooter in the ICORE and production in USPSA.

[Bubber]

The last one in the Real Midwest was in 2000 in North Dakota. After 6 years of not having a Midwest match, Mike put on one in 2006. Mike ran until 2008, Rick Miller ran it in 2009. 4 years in Tontitown, Arkansas. I don't see a firm division of States as in USPSA for ICORE. From what I can remember. later rdd

oops!! wrong topic, Getting Old Just Sucks!!

Edited cause Ilm old...

Edited February 19, 2013 by Bubber

[jhgtyre]

Results from our experimental Outlaw Revo Match aren't in just yet but I pinned a topic for them, and any other outlaw matches that you may run, at the top of the Revo Match Announcements Forum.

-ld

[RevolverJockey]

Theoretically, if my 610 was out of commission (this is what I shoot in every USPSA match) and I was inclined to take a 627, I would more likely want to shoot it in Production. 2 rounds, even scored as minor is a huge advantage - even if it means not having one static reload a match to clear an 8 shot array.

Lee