motosapiens Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 I think if you add up the membership numbers of IDPA, ICORE and maybe even GSSF, yes, people have left USPSA. I know a lot of people not renewing their memberships in 2015. I don't know anything about ICORE, but if people left uspsa for idpa or gssf, it is probably because those people didn't feel like practicing and were tired of losing because they didn't practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 You really think there won't be an arms race with PO? All of a sudden people NEED a certain red dot and NEED certain mags or followers or springs. Or NEED a certain optic mount system. Open Lite.As PO is based on Production I can say that 'No', people don't need certain magazines as the ones that come with the gun work, they may change a recoil spring (approx $10), 'Yes' they may want different base-pads or followers, mine are all stock and work fine but you can get base-pads for some guns at < $20. If I do want some more magazines I can get them for < $30 for my XDM.As for the optic mounting system, there are tons of those out there that use the existing rear sight dovetail or the slide can be machined to accept the sight without any mounting hardware. The hardware for my XDM was about $45. What about the gun? Just Glocks & other plastic frames? Stock 2 with a dot? That is the cost race. On the same line, where are these dovetail red dot mounts? I tried to look those up the other day but came up with very little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 (edited) DeltaPoint mounts are available for all these guns (source): Beretta 92 Beretta 90-TWO Beretta 96 Taurus PT99 Glock 17 Glock 22 Glock 23 Glock 26 HK-P2000 SIG SAUER P226 Smith & Wesson Revolvers Smith & Wesson Classic Smith & Wesson M&P 1911 Standard (Colt) CZ 75 Springfield XD Kimber Adjustable Kimber Fixed Edited December 22, 2014 by BritinUSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 When I've read a topic and dislike it or the premise, I never have the urge to read it anymore. Interesting repetitive haters on this thread. Merry Christmas to all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 (edited) STS Mounts (source): STSMT-100 STS Dovetail Mounting Kit - Colt 1911 Colt 1911 STSMT-110 STS Dovetail Mounting Kit - Glock (Wide) G20, 21, 29, 30, 36, 37, 38, 39 STSMT-115 STS Dovetail Mounting Kit - Glock (Narrow) G17, 19, 22, 23, 25, 26, 27, 28, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 Edited December 22, 2014 by BritinUSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 There are more mounts from Springer Precision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Some interesting comments about the whole equipment race concept. I personally think alot of that has to do with shooters being guys who like to tinker with mechanical stuff and appreciate fine worksmanship. But does spending an extra couple grand really translate into results? I'm not so sure an $800 glock is at a real disadvantage compared to an $1800 cz, and I'm *really* not so sure a $4000 custom limited gun is any better than an $1100 tac sport, but if someone is successful with one platform (as long as it's not some AFU beretta from last century), it seems like people will flock to that platform. I think you'll see the same thing in PO regardless of the rules. Many people will believe that they can't compete without spending as much money as the official PO badazz, and many people will successfully compete without spending anywhere near that much dough. Some of them may even practice a bit (which I've heard can be an advantage). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Thank you Britin. Those seem a little costly for what PO is trying to do, don't you think? Even a Burris Fastfire and dovetail mount will run around $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Thank you Britin. Those seem a little costly for what PO is trying to do, don't you think? Even a Burris Fastfire and dovetail mount will run around $250. OMGZ, that's like 2 months worth of ammo (one month if you don't reload). That's like 1/4 the cost of traveling to an out-of-state major match. No one will be able to afford it, especially not USPSA shooter, most of whom only have 1 gun....... right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Some interesting comments about the whole equipment race concept. I personally think alot of that has to do with shooters being guys who like to tinker with mechanical stuff and appreciate fine worksmanship. But does spending an extra couple grand really translate into results? I'm not so sure an $800 glock is at a real disadvantage compared to an $1800 cz,, and many people will successfully compete without spending anywhere near that much dough. Some of them may even practice a bit (which I've heard can be an advantage). Guy by me just made top 20 in GM production list, nipping the heels of the big dogs at majors, and probably still isn't legal to order a beer after the match, all with a glock. He is an alien of course, but his relatives are pretty badass shooters too. Maybe they all came down on the same spaceship ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Its pointless arguing this any further, there are some that are opposed to this division and those that support it. I suspect that PO will happen in USPSA, as Mark said earlier it will most likely occur after we lose members to other sports that offer a similar option. I'm going to continue to shoot my PO gun and I'll wait for the rest of the organization to realize its benefits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 What will become of it when people think they need a Stock 2 with a Leopold sight to be competitive? All of a sudden, we're back to $1500+ for a division intended to bring in new shooters or regain shooters on a budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v1911 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 And even at those prices it's still cheaper than open and allows for store bought ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 When I've read a topic and dislike it or the premise, I never have the urge to read it anymore. Interesting repetitive haters on this thread. Interesting repetitive PO arguments on this thread (unendingly). Same arguments, stated with ultimate certainty, but still with not hard data, just opinions of a few who want something different to happen. It sounds a lot like the PO proponents keep saying the same arguments and assumptions over and over (especially that USPSA will dwindle and die if this single, equipment-based change isn't made, and real soon), but there doesn't seem to be much of a real, widespread effort to recruit competitors and to demonstrate the viability of a new Division. Is this how Single Stack started, with a lot of negative rhetoric and name-calling of those who disagreed ("haters")? Gary, can you give us some perspective here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 (edited) Nevermind. Good luck with PO. I don't see the draw, but if you guys make it and do it well, all the more power to you. I like the idea of innovation, but PO seems like Open lite for people who want to have carry guns with red dots. Good luck and God Speed. Edited December 22, 2014 by PKT1106 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 I suspect that PO will happen in USPSA, as Mark said earlier it will most likely occur after we lose members to other sports that offer a similar option. that's an interesting outlook. I would certainly rather shoot *any* gun (even PO) in uspsa than shoot *any* gun in one of lamer shooting sports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 L-10 allows almost unlimited modifications but without a compensator or scope. If you allow a scope in L10 you have just basically created another Open division, the only difference will be the lack of compensator. I think that within 5 years a top of the range L-10 Optic guns would cost over $3000. If you tie it to Production we limit the number of modifications that are permitted and that helps to reduce costs. Many Americans have less disposable income now then they did 10 years ago, USPSA needs to start recognizing that fact or the participation in this sport will begin to suffer. A $2K accushadow custom milled for a high end RMR and you are all ready at $3K do price is a mute argument. The ONLY way to not hear a equipment race of one kind or another would be too have a spec class, and we know nobody wants that. I brought up the IDPA division because when that came up all the PO proponents said see IDPA is going to do it first and were happy, even though that rule set that more closely matched out limited division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 What will become of it when people think they need a Stock 2 with a Leopold sight to be competitive? All of a sudden, we're back to $1500+ for a division intended to bring in new shooters or regain shooters on a budget. Is that what's happening in Production division right now with Stock 2's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 I suspect that PO will happen in USPSA, as Mark said earlier it will most likely occur after we lose members to other sports that offer a similar option. The number of people that want to shoot PO is low. The number of people that would actually leave USPSA to go shoot PO somewhere else is a percentage of that. End result, a very low number unlikely to have a measurable impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 That is what USPSA said about Revolvers, Glocks and 1911s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaShot Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 Why? we already have the Open Division. you are always welcome to shoot Open Minor. To me we already have too many divisions. thats like asking for a division for guns that are Cerakoated with a primary color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 thats like asking for a division for guns that are Cerakoated with a primary color. Not sure if serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 The 1911 Single Stack Division, now called Single Stack, was a combination of two equal ideas. First USPSA was not exploiting a potential marketing field, in that over 20 (at that time) companies were making a 1911. This could enhance revenue for Front Sight through advertising and possibly put additional products into the prize table efforts. Second it would put a gun platform that literally started IPSC/USPSA back into the game and provide easy crossover from IDPA into our sport. Unfortunately neither of these ideas have been fully explored by the leadership of USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyZip Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 First thoughts on this was a "no way" attitude. then over the last year my sight has begun to diminish. 45 is a bitch I guess. Anyway, a dot on my Glock, a low profile delta or some such thing might be nice. Hmm..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 OK, I just let my self be suckered into this thread. Instead of PO optics, How about baby open: Production or Single Stack Guns Use same holsters and Equipment as currently being used 8 major or 10 minor(must be 40 or bigger for major) Slide riders or irons only comps allowed. This would allow old SS open guns to play, and compped/threaded barrels are readily available for the rest of us. Taking out race holsters and huge mags would keep the equipment cost low. I would shoot this division for sure. Pro optics meh. Also the guns would make good open steel guns and who doesn't like a good dual purpose pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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