Production optics

[Onepocket]

Moto. No truer statement has ever been said.

[zhunter]

We had two shooters register and shoot Production Optics at out monthly match yesterday. There was no notice posted or emailed about it, just an option when signing up via Practiscore.com

I had lots of people asking questions and showing interest, so laugh too.

It was a lot of fun to say the least.

Shooting a dot is awesome for my 52 year old eyes, steel seems easy.

Here is a video of Stage 6

Scores:

https://practiscore.com/results.php?uuid=F8A1EF04-21A7-4201-8E06-271890B48A2D&page=matchProduction_Optics

Edited December 21, 2014 by zhunter

[PKT1106]

We had two shooters register and shoot Production Optics at out monthly match yesterday.

Including yourself? So, one other person?

There was no notice posted or emailed about it, just an option when signing up via Practiscore.com

Except the posts about it here and USPSA forums and doodie (only ones I saw). But who's counting?

I had lots of people asking questions and showing interest, so laugh too.

Showing interest is great. How many are going to go out and get an RMR'd M&P or Glock to shoot an unrecognized division? Did you tell them it wasn't recognized by USPSA and that their scores wouldn't be counted officially? Or did you just tell them how awesome it will be and that they don't have to spend $3K for an "Open" gun when they really don't anyway? They have to buy a production gun and then get it optics ready and get a red dot. Not exactly a cheap endeavor when your touting an inexpensive division for people to use a dot.

It was a lot of fun to say the least.

As all shooting should be.

Shooting a dot is awesome for my 52 year old eyes, steel seems easy.

I think a lot of people of your generation think that as well. Probably why they switch to open, so they can use a dot in a recognized division.

I know, I am a hater. I just don't see the point other than making a niche division for niche guns.

Edited December 21, 2014 by PKT1106

[MarkCO]

I think a lot of people of your generation think that as well. Probably why they switch to open, so they can use a dot in a recognized division.

I know, I am a hater. I just don't see the point other than making a niche division for niche guns.

If Open was the ONLY division in USPSA, I would never shoot another USPSA match. I think we have too many divisions and that USPSA has made some very bad choices (granted in hindsight) with revolver, Limited 10 and some others to a lesser extent. But I do think long term, PO is going to become a division in USPSA, likely long after another sport steals away members because they see the future benefit.

[PKT1106]

But I do think long term, PO is going to become a division in USPSA, likely long after another sport steals away members because they see the future benefit.

What benefit does it provide that Open doesn't? Minor, 10rds with a red dot? What is stopping people from doing that in Open now?

[leas327]

But I do think long term, PO is going to become a division in USPSA, likely long after another sport steals away members because they see the future benefit.

What benefit does it provide that Open doesn't? Minor, 10rds with a red dot? What is stopping people from doing that in Open now?

Production has shifted to guys thinking they need $1500-2000 guns to compete. If you look at unofficial combined results for matches like Battle in the Bluegrass it has proven that DA/SA and striker fired guns can compete with 1911s. Why don't we tell those guys all the stuff they want to do fits within the rules of L10 and they should go play in that division.

[Onepocket]

There is no production optics, you are shooting open minor. But you can pretend to do what ever you like. I shoot limited minor when its muddy out and I pretend that I can really control the recoil of this limited gun. - some times I pretend its a laser gun. PEW PEW PEW. It doesn't make it so.

[MarkCO]

But I do think long term, PO is going to become a division in USPSA, likely long after another sport steals away members because they see the future benefit.

What benefit does it provide that Open doesn't? Minor, 10rds with a red dot? What is stopping people from doing that in Open now?

Based on your questions, if the answers are: None, Yes, None, well okay. So we should eliminate everything except Open because every gun can run in Open. But that is the opposite of what the majority of the people who shoot USPSA think. They want a division that provides less disparity of equipment. Call it perception, but that does matter. If PO was a division, I am 100% confident that within a year, it would have more competitors that Revolver and Limited 10 combined. But even mention nixing Limited 10 and Revolver and see what happens to you.

Action shooting, for the vast majority, is a pastime/hobby/diversion etc. that they want to enjoy. Not have some guy with a $5K race gun set up get all upset because they want to run a dot, with old eyes, in a division that would cost them 1/4 of an open blaster. When the people at the top of USPSA start to understand that this is entertainment for most of their members and start to provide customer service in line with other competing diversions, USPSA will continue the slide.

[PKT1106]

They want a division that provides less disparity of equipment.

So, they think they need the same equipment to participate?

If PO was a division, I am 100% confident that within a year, it would have more competitors that Revolver and Limited 10 combined.

I am not so sure.

Action shooting, for the vast majority, is a pastime/hobby/diversion etc. that they want to enjoy.

I totally agree.

Not have some guy with a $5K race gun set up get all upset because they want to run a dot, with old eyes, in a division that would cost them 1/4 of an open blaster.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

When the people at the top of USPSA start to understand that this is entertainment for most of their members and start to provide customer service in line with other competing diversions, USPSA will continue the slide.

If it is for entertainment, why do I keep hearing the need to be "competitive" as a reason for PO?

[MarkCO]

If it is for entertainment, why do I keep hearing the need to be "competitive" as a reason for PO?

Same reason grown men get all frothed up over their favorite sports team, play fantasy sports, etc. Just part of the nature of the beast. If you or I totally understood the psychology of it, we would probably not be posting it on BEnos though.

Why do we have semi-pro sports teams, bracket racing, softball, Indy Lights, etc?...would be the same answer to the question you asked.

[PKT1106]

Same reason grown men get all frothed up over their favorite sports team, play fantasy sports, etc. Just part of the nature of the beast. If you or I totally understood the psychology of it, we would probably not be posting it on BEnos though.

Why do we have semi-pro sports teams, bracket racing, softball, Indy Lights, etc?...would be the same answer to the question you asked.

So, ego?

[MarkCO]

Ego, pride, sure. That is a large part of it. I think there is a double edged sword mixed into the reasons. While I am adamantly opposed to the idea of trying to make everyone great and give them a blue ribbon, I do see some in making a sport have a wider appeal by offering divisions (within reason) that will get more gun owners off the couch and to the range.

Over the course of 2014, I have come to realize that the shooting sports has three main groups of shooters that are not characterized by skill, but by what they get out of it.

Competitive shooters always want to win. Those with perseverance will make it near the top (Say A card and up?). Those without will quit or just get frustrated at themselves and pile on the excuses early and often. This group accounts for maybe 10-15%, and probably comprise more than half of BEnos members.

Tradesmen shooters want to perform well and and measure themselves against themselves more than anything. Probably about 1/3 of those who shoot action shooting sports and the rest of the BEnos members. Sure they check scores, but their week is the same good or bad, same as if their sports team wins or loses.

Social shooters enjoy guns, maybe hunting, and even if they look at the scores, they don't care. The range is their "Cheers". This group has very little representation in the shooting organizations, BEnos, running matches etc. BUT, it is also the largest group and the ones those of us who are in the prior two groups have ignored over the past 20 years of development of the action shooting sports.

I will say I "learned" this while evaluating myself as a MD and asking those that finish at 50% and below why they shoot matches and finding casual shooters at my range and asking them why they do NOT shoot matches. 5000 CCW students provided me the feedback, but I honestly failed to see it until recently. My involvement with NSSF has provided another piece of the information.

I don't say this to say PO is right or wrong necessarily, but the answers I received back from those who have the power to influence change in USPA appear to also have missed the desires of the largest segment that does, and would enter action shooting matches if it were not so driven by certain factors. I am probably in danger of thread drift, so I will not go on, but I do see PO as a step in the right direction to include more of the 20/30s as well as the 50+ crowd while the old guard keeps marching to the same beat of the 1990s at best.

At some point, more engines and transmissions won't cut the mustard, you need a new car. Those come with costs, and creature comforts as well.

[bikerburgess]

I think a second optics division is a good idea but I think reflexively tying it to production is a mistake. We should look at what everyone is actually saying they want out of a new division. What I am hearing is, optic, don't need to reload to be competitive, use less intimidating guns. This could be achieved without using production for a base, production has many rules that would keep existing guns with slide mounted dots out. Production rules are already hard enough to correctly enforce adding optics to them won't make that better. How about making it more like the IDPA proposed rules that would in effect make it L10 minor with a dot. Easy rules to enforce

[PKT1106]

Social shooters enjoy guns, maybe hunting, and even if they look at the scores, they don't care. The range is their "Cheers". This group has very little representation in the shooting organizations, BEnos, running matches etc. BUT, it is also the largest group and the ones those of us who are in the prior two groups have ignored over the past 20 years of development of the action shooting sports.

What makes you think that any new "innovative" division will bring them to the pits anymore than the opportunities they had over the last 20 years.

[BritinUSA]

L-10 allows almost unlimited modifications but without a compensator or scope. If you allow a scope in L10 you have just basically created another Open division, the only difference will be the lack of compensator. I think that within 5 years a top of the range L-10 Optic guns would cost over $3000.

If you tie it to Production we limit the number of modifications that are permitted and that helps to reduce costs. Many Americans have less disposable income now then they did 10 years ago, USPSA needs to start recognizing that fact or the participation in this sport will begin to suffer.

[BritinUSA]

What makes you think that any new "innovative" division will bring them to the pits anymore than the opportunities they had over the last 20 years.

Its not just new members, PO provides another alternative that could help to RETAIN members within USPSA.

[Racinready300ex]

I don't get the cost thing...I just put together a open glock. Internally it's production legal. I then stippled the grip that was free. If I take off the $150 for the SJC mount, and spend $150 getting the slide machined for a dot. Then loose the $200 C-more for a $400 for a delta point. I'm now in the hole $200, but I can save $100 on the mag well. And then save $100 on the comp, that brings me back to even. Holster and belt costs would probably be similar, if not more for PO with 5 mag pouches. And PO will need 6 mags, instead of 3. But PO wouldn't need the extension, so that's probably about the same too.

Of course I can't be competitive with it right? Tell that to the guys I shoot with.

[PKT1106]

L-10 allows almost unlimited modifications but without a compensator or scope. If you allow a scope in L10 you have just basically created another Open division, the only difference will be the lack of compensator. I think that within 5 years a top of the range L-10 Optic guns would cost over $3000.

If you tie it to Production we limit the number of modifications that are permitted and that helps to reduce costs. Many Americans have less disposable income now then they did 10 years ago, USPSA needs to start recognizing that fact or the participation in this sport will begin to suffer.

You really think there won't be an arms race with PO? All of a sudden people NEED a certain red dot and NEED certain mags or followers or springs. Or NEED a certain optic mount system. Open Lite.

[PKT1106]

Its not just new members, PO provides another alternative that could help to RETAIN members within USPSA.

Are people leaving because we don't have a PO division?

[BritinUSA]

You really think there won't be an arms race with PO? All of a sudden people NEED a certain red dot and NEED certain mags or followers or springs. Or NEED a certain optic mount system. Open Lite.

As PO is based on Production I can say that 'No', people don't need certain magazines as the ones that come with the gun work, they may change a recoil spring (approx $10), 'Yes' they may want different base-pads or followers, mine are all stock and work fine but you can get base-pads for some guns at < $20. If I do want some more magazines I can get them for < $30 for my XDM.

As for the optic mounting system, there are tons of those out there that use the existing rear sight dovetail or the slide can be machined to accept the sight without any mounting hardware. The hardware for my XDM was about $45.

[motosapiens]

But I do think long term, PO is going to become a division in USPSA, likely long after another sport steals away members because they see the future benefit.

What benefit does it provide that Open doesn't? Minor, 10rds with a red dot? What is stopping people from doing that in Open now?

I think the main benefit would be to have a division that somewhat closely reflects what people actually carry (for duty or self-defense), similar to singlestack or production now. For me, carryable real-world guns (meow) are more interesting than race-only guns, and I suspect there are other people that feel that way too.

At any rate, whether you like or hate the idea, you have to admit that zhunter is putting his money where his mouth is, and doing the grass-roots work to find out if PO is a stupid idea or not. I personally think it is (but I think regular open is pretty stupid too, lol), but I think if it ever becomes a good idea, it will be because of folks like him.

Mild thread drift...... what if there was a heads-up low-cap division, 8 rds major, 10 rds minor, limited modifications (no thumbrests, for example), basically combining production and SS. What would happen? Would all the top guys shoot 1911's? or cz's? or tanfo's? Would glocks and other crappy plastic guns still be competitive? I'm not sure there's a big diff between a 1911 and a really good production gun, but what I would be afraid of is that people would feel compelled to have a major *and* a minor gun and wait to see the stages on the ground to decide with was better for that match (you know, like the top guys did with singlestack at the world shoot).

Anyway, whatever. Everyone serious has guns that fit 3-5 divisions already anyway.

[Onepocket]

Sarge. Where are you, hurry up and kick this dead horse one more time.

[MarkCO]

Anyway, whatever. Everyone serious has guns that fit 3-5 divisions already anyway.

Yep, have a 610 and a 1911.

I think if you add up the membership numbers of IDPA, ICORE and maybe even GSSF, yes, people have left USPSA. I know a lot of people not renewing their memberships in 2015.

[Nik Habicht]

But I do think long term, PO is going to become a division in USPSA, likely long after another sport steals away members because they see the future benefit.

What benefit does it provide that Open doesn't? Minor, 10rds with a red dot? What is stopping people from doing that in Open now?

Possibly the same benefit that Production provided, compared to Limited.....

[jabbermurph]

I think a second optics division is a good idea but I think reflexively tying it to production is a mistake. We should look at what everyone is actually saying they want out of a new division. What I am hearing is, optic, don't need to reload to be competitive, use less intimidating guns. This could be achieved without using production for a base, production has many rules that would keep existing guns with slide mounted dots out. Production rules are already hard enough to correctly enforce adding optics to them won't make that better. How about making it more like the IDPA proposed rules that would in effect make it L10 minor with a dot. Easy rules to enforce

That or make it polymer guns only, that way it actually would be the most affordable division. Have weight limits for slides and frames weighed separately. make a minimum pull weight at 3# to even out the hammered vs. striker debate.