CHA-LEE Posted November 5, 2012 Author Share Posted November 5, 2012 I agree with Supermoto's basic stance. If you have stepped up to MD a match, you need to be proactive in your work effort to make the match happen. You can't simply show up the morning of the match and "Hope" that volunteers will magically appear to make the match happen. The "Job" of the MD is to coordinate the resources properly to enable the match to happen effectively. On the other side of the coin, if you step up to MD a match and are looking for recognition for doing the "Job" you are seriously mistaken about the reality of the job as a whole. Being an MD is a thankless job where you have to manage a continual flow of crap you would rather not want to deal with but have committed to resolve. As a shooter or part of the match staff I do my best to lead by example. I bust my hump before, during and after the match to help make the match a success. If I show up to a match that I am not part of the official staff and see that they need help, I jump in and help with what I can. I always take a proactive stance when it comes to making the match run smoothly. I keep an eye on the ebb and flow of how the squad churns through the stage and bring shortcomings to the squads attention when needed. The shooters I don't get are the ones who choose to either do nothing, or only as little as they can get away with doing. Yip Yapping endlessly with their buddies or simply zoning out until its their turn to shoot. Or better yet, screwing around until its their turn to shoot and not even being ready to shoot when its their turn. For these shooters, or "Consumers", I don't even know how a match would be fun or worth their time. I would be board to death if all I did was stand around and wait for my turn to shoot. If I am not doing something productive while at the range I feel like I am wasting my time. So I don't get why being a "Consumer" would be a viable option over being a "Helper". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 You should see how helpful people are when they know their scoresheet will get lost if they leave early! Only have to do it once. The consumers will either not return or they'll become helpers. I agree 100%, works very well. Now we just need a solution for set up. I really don't know what to say to that. I would never intentionally eff with a shooter's scores, period, dot! For any reason, but especially not because they didn't help set up or tear down. They paid their match fee in good faith expecting a "product", their scores, in return. Reading threads like these makes me glad I am no longer MD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 I agree with Supermoto's basic stance. I sure as hell don't. Supermoto has done everything but call every other MD than himself a whining cry baby, a piss poor planner, etc.. He even implied that Area 7 is the only professional area in USPSA. What a bunch of bull. That type of opinionated language is not only not true it is doing nothing to further this conversation. As an MD you can try to surround yourself with good people that are willing to help. But I basically only have a few who have ample time, resources, a good enough work schedule, etc.. to be counted on to be there when I need them and for how long I need them. Most of my help have several other interests from one end of the spectrum to the other. And some are not shy about letting me know where exactly USPSA falls on their list of priorities. Whereas I pretty much eat and breath this stuff, at least for now. If I could find 10 guys like myself who have a lot of flexibility and the same level of desire and drive to put on a good match I could care less if shooters help set up or stick around to put stuff away. But that is not reality and it is asking a lot. Many people have great intentions but reality soon sets in after about the second match of the season when it conflicts with other interests. You also have regular help that are avid shooters. If there is a bigger match happening anywhere they are most likely going to go shoot it, regardless of how it impacts our match. Whereas I pretty much know that I will not be able to shoot anything that falls on the same weekend as our match during the season. That is just how I see my obligation as an MD. The fact that an MD can not get enough help for a match is in most cases not a reflection on him. And as a matter of fact if you are in a "helper rich environment" that is also not a reflection on the MD in most cases. He's just lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 You should see how helpful people are when they know their scoresheet will get lost if they leave early! Only have to do it once. The consumers will either not return or they'll become helpers. I agree 100%, works very well. Now we just need a solution for set up. I really don't know what to say to that. I would never intentionally eff with a shooter's scores, period, dot! For any reason, but especially not because they didn't help set up or tear down. They paid their match fee in good faith expecting a "product", their scores, in return. Reading threads like these makes me glad I am no longer MD. I'm glad I don't MD anymore either. Too much BS to put up with. Same 5 people setting up 5 stages, doing signin, compiling scores and advertising month after month, year after year. The only way anyone new joins in is when an incumbent dies or moves away. I guess we could have 5 El Prezes every month. that would cut down on the number of people who come. Add to that some asshat who shows up 30 min before walkthru and leave 2 seconds after they complete the last stages, whether other shooters on the squad still have to shoot or not. Once this loses the fun factor, it becomes an unpaid job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 I agree with Supermoto's basic stance. I sure as hell don't. Supermoto has done everything but call every other MD than himself a whining cry baby, a piss poor planner, etc.. He even implied that Area 7 is the only professional area in USPSA. What a bunch of bull. That type of opinionated language is not only not true it is doing nothing to further this conversation. The fact that an MD can not get enough help for a match is in most cases not a reflection on him. And as a matter of fact if you are in a "helper rich environment" that is also not a reflection on the MD in most cases. He's just lucky. when you have 50 shooters in the parking lot watching you build stages and they tell you to your face they are not going to help. It may be a leadership issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 2013 will be my 5th and final year running my USPSA club. So I have a little knowledge in regards to running matches and what burns us MD's out... What really chaps my ass is not setup... it's the guys that shoot and scoot! We all bust our asses so that the match is setup all legal and on time and these people can't stay 15 minutes late to help chip in and leave the range looking better than when we started! I spend more time putting things away and picking trash out of our toolboxes than I should ever have to! This is when I crack, then these same guys don't even say thanks for all your hard work... I don't even get a free match out of the deal... So why do we do it? My wife keeps asking me the same question... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 I agree with Supermoto's basic stance. I sure as hell don't. Supermoto has done everything but call every other MD than himself a whining cry baby, a piss poor planner, etc.. He even implied that Area 7 is the only professional area in USPSA. What a bunch of bull. That type of opinionated language is not only not true it is doing nothing to further this conversation. The fact that an MD can not get enough help for a match is in most cases not a reflection on him. And as a matter of fact if you are in a "helper rich environment" that is also not a reflection on the MD in most cases. He's just lucky. when you have 50 shooters in the parking lot watching you build stages and they tell you to your face they are not going to help. It may be a leadership issue Leadership issue? This is not the army. MD's do not have absolute power over anybody. Leadership is defined as compelling others to want to do what you want them to do. The only way to compel most people is by letting them shoot for free. I would be willing to bet that if you withheld scores and there were other local matches to shoot many would just go elsewhere. If you tell them you are not building great stages anymore they will most likely go elsewhere. Many people just do not want to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 2013 will be my 5th and final year running my USPSA club. So I have a little knowledge in regards to running matches and what burns us MD's out... What really chaps my ass is not setup... it's the guys that shoot and scoot! We all bust our asses so that the match is setup all legal and on time and these people can't stay 15 minutes late to help chip in and leave the range looking better than when we started! I spend more time putting things away and picking trash out of our toolboxes than I should ever have to! This is when I crack, then these same guys don't even say thanks for all your hard work... I don't even get a free match out of the deal... So why do we do it? My wife keeps asking me the same question... Are you saying when you are MD you still have to pay? Now that's just strange. If you set up a stage, MD or RO you shouldn't pay. It's not enough to cover REAL labor costs but it's a damn slap in the face doing all that and then having to pay!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming the Merciless Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Moderators, please move this to "What I Hate" and close it so that in six months another thread can be started on the same subject, same as the thread six months ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerome Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Old hat to some but this is an excellent thread for me as a newer shooter. Eye opening. I had no idea. Moderators, please move this to "What I Hate" and close it so that in six months another thread can be started on the same subject, same as the thread six months ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garyg19 Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Old hat to some but this is an excellent thread for me as a newer shooter. Eye opening. I had no idea. Moderators, please move this to "What I Hate" and close it so that in six months another thread can be started on the same subject, same as the thread six months ago. I agree, and it really, really makes me appreciate our local MD and the rest of the leadership group in our club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentG Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 (edited) It is a recurring theme. I do my best to help with setup, and run a match. I hate to RO and will do extra so I dont have to. Our MDs for USPSA and 3Gun are great guys and we owe them big time. At away local matches I always help with teardown as needed. There were a couple matches this summer I had to shoot and scoot but I dont feel bad because I put in plenty of work on the front end and after usually. However like most clubs we have deadwood. The guys who show up and shoot and NEVER help. Some help occasionaly with set up. Then we have the area hot shots who are club members but who are narcisisstic and wont lift a finger. The kind of folks who park in the fire lane at the mall or grocery store. Its a problem that wont go away regardless of how much we try. They just dont get it or care. I do love the suggestion of "losing" a score sheet or two to get the point accross, if your local and dont help some your on the excriment list. Im going to suggest it to our MDs. I do have one exception. Guys who are getting up in years and have done their duty in the past with matches and have physical issues that make just shooting the match an effort. Or people with some kind of physical situation. I shot a match a few weeks after a few days in the hospital with surgery. I did good just to make it thru and bugged out as soon as I was done. BUT after that its back to the work. Edited November 6, 2012 by Kent Grewe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmca Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Wow, 50 people in the parking lot and nobody helped with set up? I'm glad at our small club, almost everybody helps, of course, some more than others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Old hat to some but this is an excellent thread for me as a newer shooter. Eye opening. I had no idea. Moderators, please move this to "What I Hate" and close it so that in six months another thread can be started on the same subject, same as the thread six months ago. You new shooters are usually the next in line to run clubs and step up to be MD's, everyone else is burned out... Learn from our mistakes... That's why threads like this are important and this subject should get discussed frequently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoNsTeR Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Leadership issue? This is not the army. MD's do not have absolute power over anybody. Leadership is defined as compelling others to want to do what you want them to do. The only way to compel most people is by letting them shoot for free. I would be willing to bet that if you withheld scores and there were other local matches to shoot many would just go elsewhere. If you tell them you are not building great stages anymore they will most likely go elsewhere. Many people just do not want to help. (emphasis added) Precisely because this is not the army, leadership is most definitely not about compelling anyone to do anything. It is about inspiring people to help and do the right thing. I can't say I really agree with Supermoto, but he has made some valid points. Personally if I ever saw a large group of people standing in the parking lot with the match still half built, I would cancel it immediately and throw everyone off the range. Or maybe give a free match to everyone who helped and charge double to everyone else. If things are truly that bad you have to do something to send a message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 (edited) maybe if we got away from calling the $ the competitors pay at the local match a "match fee," and instead called it "consumables re-imbursement," they'd realize the money is for targets/props, NOT for a setup/RO/pasting/teardown service. -rvb Edited November 6, 2012 by rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Effect of stage props on setup/tear down participation split to new topic: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=162895#entry1815081 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 If you're interested in participating in and improving the condition of our sport, join a USPSA club and help them do it. If you just want to pay money to play a game, Dave & Busters is ready when you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviesterno Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 I think it's stupid for people not to chip in and help. If I didn't help, and all my buddies, we wouldn't get to shoot except at the stand and plink crappy ranges! I haven't been MD or anything yet, but have gone to every set up as best I can. Even got pulled over for speeding on my way to set up a monthly club match... Whoops. the ONLY time we were ever actually paid was to work the FNH 3 gun match. Shot free (but in one day, so it really hurt our scores) and got food and some hotel money. I took a week off of work for it, since we had to be there early. It was the only match shooters didn't have to lift a finger! I mean we reset steel, pasted, everything. Kept it all standard, and most shooters said it was well worth the price. Granted, we had a few guys who felt so bad not helping they insisted on walking with us to pick steel. Not only that, but we busted our asses, up at 4:30 am and off the range by 8pm so everyone else could have fun. Most people would argue it was one of the better matches they have ever worked or shot. Sponsors spoiled ROs and the helpers for sure, but honestly we spent a Week of our lives doing this. I think it's stupid to not help and set up. What's a better way to game a stage, walk through it once or be there moving the targets a few inches at a time while the designer sets it up? That way you can usually see all the angles, walk it a dozen times, really make it stick. It helps you as a shooter when you understand course design. Plus, I'm already warmed up from carry stupid poppers all morning Ok, rant over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Too_Slow Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 (edited) At our club we setup the day before, anywhere from 12 to 18 people doing the setup. They get money off the fee for this and even more off if they RO as well. Then we have the squads tear down and bring the props back to the trailer on the last stage that they shot. It has been working fine this way for at least three years. Brian Edited November 16, 2012 by Too_Slow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyprant Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) My schedule barely allows me to be able shoot twice a month. I run an aircraft detailing operation and we need to be available to work at all times. I get no set days off, and I find out what kind of hours I will be working when I wake up. If im lucky I get an idea of my schedule the day before... I have never been able to help set up a match (done the day before), I'm not yet comfortable becoming a SO/RO. So I show up, shoot paste, reset, and tear down stages, and get home/work as fast as tear down will allow. I wish I could spend more time helping, but I cannot. It does suck knowing that I should help more, and some times I dont go shoot a match if I know I will need to shoot and scoot. (I dont think I should feel this way and it sucks.) It would be nice if there was some system so the same people don't get stuck doing most of the work, also another system that didn't discourage people from showing up, if they couldn't help more... Maybe a tip jar wouldnt be a bad idea...I would feel better about having a choice to pay $5 more if I didnt have the time to tear down and needed to be moved up in order on the last stage of the match... Maybe USPSA would discount memberships or even make them free renewals with documented time doing the extra work like set up and what not... The people really are what make this sport amazing, and the every one helps mind set is what helps keep that up. Edited November 20, 2012 by cyprant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Cline Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 I am the MD at most of our club's matches. We have lots of club members who help set up the stages. They receive benefits for "making the match happen"- discounted match fee and use of the range for practice. Everyone else pays the full match fee. Everyone is expected to help tear down the stages. 8 - 10 people can tear down a stage in 5 - 10 minutes and very lttle heavy lifting. No one really balks at this contribution to the club that just put on a match for them. Everyone is expected to "help" during the match- tape a target, reset a popper or two, paint some steel. This is reasonable as it simply has to be done. Only certain persons ought to be ROing- the RO certified folk mostly or experienced shooters. I don't want "new" dudes ROing at my matches. I think expecting people to show up and set up their match is laziness on that club's part. This is a cultural thing. Here the club puts on the match and benefits from the match fees and hopefully uses it to improve the clubs props and quality of the matches in the future. I set up my matches. I show up to other matches and shoot (and RO a bit and always tape). This seems reasonable to me. There will always be persons who invest less. Oh well. Take pride in your investment and quit bitching about the lesser folk-- you're already better than them, right? Why make a big old public display as well. No benefit in my book. Lots of potential harm. Jerks that don't help during the match are a different story. I would discourage the process of expecting shooters to show up and set up their stages before they could shoot the match. I would expect it to decrease match attendance and turn off new shooters. I see the benefit to the club (less burnout) but at the risk of lower attendance. It puts onerous on the club to have at least one person with good communication and directing skills on each stage/bay (never assume this). Setting up movers and activators is still a potential problem (think of the harm of having too many reshoots). How about steel calibration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 WOW! Two really different viewpoints here. This is a volunteer sport. We do however ask for volunteers. No one gets a break on fees. We do it because it is what we do. If we start 'paying' staff to build, RO or tear-down, soon we will have a real us/them situation. Some clubs give the first x number of people a free match if they help. If I were to show up at such a match a few minutes too late to be in group A, why should I help, you are paying them, not me. Make it all pay, all play and we all have the same incentive to work build it or there is no match. We do need to ask, cajole, direct, plan as match directors, but we need to build a working group to actually put on the match. After 14 years as co-director of our local match I can honestly say that we have one heck of a good group of people. Good enough so that on a few occasions where our main group is traveling to an away match, we still have staff to run our match. This year we had one point where 7 of us were away and the match still ran! This is what makes USPSA the sport I want to shoot. When I hear people say that we as Match Directors are lazy or not doing our job if the match is not started @ 10:00 sharp I get my hackles up. We have the supplies on hand, the stage designs ready and we deliver the stage props to the pits. The 'Staff' is the shooters. We do this for US, not for YOU. if YOU decide not to be a part of US, WE might decide to build the match only for US by limiting sign-up to US. Better for all of us if We is US and You become a part of US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Disagree, times a million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 There is no right answer. What works for one club may or may not work for another, The culture of the club and the style of the MD dictate how each club handles the issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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