Prizes at USPSA majors

[motosapiens]

Top prize should go to the biggest class winner weather it's GM or D class. If Production has 3 GM, 5 M, 10 A, 20 B and 30 C, then C class should have the biggest prize. Most shooters. 3 GM's will never keep a match afloat.

To award what, the best mediocre shooter? The best sandbagger? The shooter that shoots for fun but cant, or wont, put in the time, effort or money to reach GM?

Sure, keep classes so people can see how they're doing against other people of roughly the same skill level, but to award prizes (except maybe some cheap plaques) is kinda silly IMHO. Even though we shoot to have fun (right?), its a competition and thus the best shooters should be awarded. If you're shooting for fun then maybe you shouldnt expect to get a good prize? Yeah, Im sure there are plenty of people that have excuses to why they can't become GMs, but in my world that doesnt justify giving them prizes...

The class system is so you can see how you're improving over time, or to give you a chance of a somewhat reasonable way of comparing skill, it shouldnt be used to distribute prizes since it awards mediocrity and sand bagging

Prizes of any decent value in overall order of finish.

my 2c...

I get your point, but some shooters no matter how much time or money they put into it will ever become a GM.

I'll never be a pro football player either, but I don't expect to get paid like one in the local beer league.

[jester121]

As a new shooter, I'd say award cash to the top "pro" level shooters, the last thing they want is another Glock that they don't need and have the hassle of selling. I guess the gun certificates are a bit easier to liquidate, but I'm sure they'd prefer cash. For the hoi polloi random draw is a nice chance to win something nice.

In the shotgun sports people got tired of paying inflated entry fees so the same 3 guys at the club could take home the whole prize pool every month, so the Lewis Class is used to spread things around a bit. I don't mind paying a $25 entry (skeet shooting example) if there are 4 or 5 of us shlubs who might each win a hundred, while the top shooters still get paid for being the best.

[Flexmoney]

Oy boy...yet another prize table thread...

Folks, it has been....and as far as I am concerned, will be...up to the individual Match Directors to decide how they wish to distribute the prizes at their matches.

[twodownzero]

I like the idea of having a good prize table for order of finish, plus prizes by randon draw. The average shooter is not going to win the big prize, yet they are always told to support the match sponsors. Do the "professional" shooters buy thins from the match sponsors? One year at the Single Stack Nationals, Smith and Wesson gave away pistols to the top finishers who shot a Smith and Wesson Single stack. I don't think to many shot them that year and maybe three were given away. Too bad Kimber doesn't do that. (Hint-Hint)

I wouldn't expect to see anything thing from Kimber. They don't seem to support USPSA or IDPA for that matter very well. I've never seen anything from them on any of the prize tables. Maybe that's why I can't remember seeing to many of their guns being used in our sports.

I wouldn't expect to see anything thing from Kimber. They don't seem to support USPSA or IDPA for that matter very well. I've never seen anything from them on any of the prize tables. Maybe that's why I can't remember seeing to many of their guns being used in our sports.

Which is weird since they've advertised on the back page of Front Sight for quite some time.

Kimber doesn't give a rat's ass about our matches. I wrote them a letter once regarding this precise issue and their response was to send me a hat. They advertise on the back of Front Sight because it's more likely to produce interest in their product immediately. Sponsorship of a match is a long-term strategy and Kimber just isn't on board with it.

Which is fine as far as I'm concerned because until their quality control returns, they are basically out of the market for those of us who put a lot of rounds through a gun every year. People in our sport want equipment that lasts.

Sandbagging only helps in matches like the pro am where they go 1st GM, 1st M, 1st A etc. That is the only match I have ever shot where they do that.

I think that the random drawing prize tables are a product of the recent "everybody is a winner" and "it has to be fair" mentality that seems to be the norm now. F - that. Work hard, win, get a reward for it. I know that the folks that put the matches and prize tables together work hard on it, but there is just no way that everybody can be a winner. I would rather see the top 5 in each division rewarded heavily and the rest can go home with incentive to do better next time. I have been hosed at the last 5-6 matches that I have been to. Like, gun oil, hosed. I gave away the contents of my last three prize bags due to them being random. All of those were match top ten finishes with at least 2nd in my division and top 3-5 in open. By rights, I should have had a gun at one or two of those.

I think that's the wrong way to look at it. A lot of shooters don't bother to shoot major matches at all. Many of them could afford to shoot an Area or a State Sectional, but choose not to, because they know that their $100+ match fee is going to subsidize a prize table for the shooters who will win these matches, of which many are pros or very serious shooters who are able to dedicate an amount of their life to shooting that many working people simply cannot do.

Having a significant amount of the prize table available for random drawings would encourage those people to consider attending a few major matches. And the growth of our major matches into bigger and bigger events that draw more shooters should be a major focus of our organization.

The people winning guns at our major matches now are the last people who need them, and in many cases, probably the LEAST interested in winning them besides for the economic value of flipping them on the classifieds as quickly as possible.

Providing strong incentives for shooters of all levels to shoot major matches is NOT just about making everyone into a "winner," but rather, for creating a set of incentives that encourages the growth of our sport. If the pros and other GMs have to take a "haircut" in that they have fewer large prizes available to them, so be it.

If our sport's only value is ruthless competition of points divided by time, we can continue to reward only the winners. In that case, the first thing we need to do is eliminate the classification system entirely, possibly followed by eliminating divisions as well, and just shoot a heads up match where everyone competes against everyone else. I say this because the classification system is obviously not doing its job when the first A class shooter is not rewarded with a similar price as the first GM, even though theoretically, both have accomplished the same thing--beating everyone that they are actually competing against in the match.

Top prize should go to the biggest class winner weather it's GM or D class. If Production has 3 GM, 5 M, 10 A, 20 B and 30 C, then C class should have the biggest prize. Most shooters. 3 GM's will never keep a match afloat.

To award what, the best mediocre shooter? The best sandbagger? The shooter that shoots for fun but cant, or wont, put in the time, effort or money to reach GM?

Sure, keep classes so people can see how they're doing against other people of roughly the same skill level, but to award prizes (except maybe some cheap plaques) is kinda silly IMHO. Even though we shoot to have fun (right?), its a competition and thus the best shooters should be awarded. If you're shooting for fun then maybe you shouldnt expect to get a good prize? Yeah, Im sure there are plenty of people that have excuses to why they can't become GMs, but in my world that doesnt justify giving them prizes...

The class system is so you can see how you're improving over time, or to give you a chance of a somewhat reasonable way of comparing skill, it shouldnt be used to distribute prizes since it awards mediocrity and sand bagging

Prizes of any decent value in overall order of finish.

my 2c...

I get your point, but some shooters no matter how much time or money they put into it will ever become a GM.

So? Reward the winners.

The winners of the classes are supposed to be "winners." If we're not going to regard their accomplishments as important, we might as well eliminate the classification system completely.

Which I'm all in favor of, by the way, but why pretend like winning one's class matters if the lower classes are never going to win anything anyway?

The only value to winning D class at an Area match today is a slot to the nationals for someone who probably doesn't even want it.

[gose]

As a new shooter, I'd say award cash to the top "pro" level shooters, the last thing they want is another Glock that they don't need and have the hassle of selling. I guess the gun certificates are a bit easier to liquidate, but I'm sure they'd prefer cash. For the hoi polloi random draw is a nice chance to win something nice.

In the shotgun sports people got tired of paying inflated entry fees so the same 3 guys at the club could take home the whole prize pool every month, so the Lewis Class is used to spread things around a bit. I don't mind paying a $25 entry (skeet shooting example) if there are 4 or 5 of us shlubs who might each win a hundred, while the top shooters still get paid for being the best.

Then have a raffle on the side that people can buy tickets for.

I'd rather give part of my entry fee to someone who beat me and earned a better prize than subsidizing a lottery.

The winners of the classes are supposed to be "winners." If we're not going to regard their accomplishments as important, we might as well eliminate the classification system completely.

Which I'm all in favor of, by the way, but why pretend like winning one's class matters if the lower classes are never going to win anything anyway?

No, I dont think we should pretend. Keep the classification system, since some people really seem to like it, but lets stop acknowledging it at matches. Is winning B really a bigger accomplishment than finishing 10th in A, if the person finishing 10th in A is higher in the totals?

Edited June 22, 2012 by gose

[JMIS]

Top prize should go to the biggest class winner weather it's GM or D class. If Production has 3 GM, 5 M, 10 A, 20 B and 30 C, then C class should have the biggest prize. Most shooters. 3 GM's will never keep a match afloat.

To award what, the best mediocre shooter? The best sandbagger? The shooter that shoots for fun but cant, or wont, put in the time, effort or money to reach GM?

Sure, keep classes so people can see how they're doing against other people of roughly the same skill level, but to award prizes (except maybe some cheap plaques) is kinda silly IMHO. Even though we shoot to have fun (right?), its a competition and thus the best shooters should be awarded. If you're shooting for fun then maybe you shouldnt expect to get a good prize? Yeah, Im sure there are plenty of people that have excuses to why they can't become GMs, but in my world that doesnt justify giving them prizes...

The class system is so you can see how you're improving over time, or to give you a chance of a somewhat reasonable way of comparing skill, it shouldnt be used to distribute prizes since it awards mediocrity and sand bagging

Prizes of any decent value in overall order of finish.

my 2c...

I get your point, but some shooters no matter how much time or money they put into it will ever become a GM.

So? Reward the winners.

Yes! The winner in class, not just the GM's and M's. A D class shooter is paying the same fee to shoot the match.

[jar]

So? Reward the winners.

Yes! The winner in class, not just the GM's and M's. A D class shooter is paying the same fee to shoot the match.

He may be paying the same match fee, but he's not shooting as well. To me, winning implies shooting the best, not being the best sandbagger. I'm not saying all class winners are sandbaggers, but if every match gives out valuable prizes for class wins, most of them will be eventually.

[motosapiens]

Top prize should go to the biggest class winner weather it's GM or D class. If Production has 3 GM, 5 M, 10 A, 20 B and 30 C, then C class should have the biggest prize. Most shooters. 3 GM's will never keep a match afloat.

To award what, the best mediocre shooter? The best sandbagger? The shooter that shoots for fun but cant, or wont, put in the time, effort or money to reach GM?

Sure, keep classes so people can see how they're doing against other people of roughly the same skill level, but to award prizes (except maybe some cheap plaques) is kinda silly IMHO. Even though we shoot to have fun (right?), its a competition and thus the best shooters should be awarded. If you're shooting for fun then maybe you shouldnt expect to get a good prize? Yeah, Im sure there are plenty of people that have excuses to why they can't become GMs, but in my world that doesnt justify giving them prizes...

The class system is so you can see how you're improving over time, or to give you a chance of a somewhat reasonable way of comparing skill, it shouldnt be used to distribute prizes since it awards mediocrity and sand bagging

Prizes of any decent value in overall order of finish.

my 2c...

I get your point, but some shooters no matter how much time or money they put into it will ever become a GM.

So? Reward the winners.

Yes! The winner in class, not just the GM's and M's. A D class shooter is paying the same fee to shoot the match.

I do not agree. The class system is useful for setting goals and judging your performance against people you don't know, but distributing valuable prizes to class winners is extremely disrespectful to those who work and train hard enough to move up to higher classes more quickly, and are therefore unlikely to be in contention for those awards.

[Carmoney]

The class system is useful for setting goals and judging your performance against people you don't know, but distributing valuable prizes to class winners is extremely disrespectful to those who work and train hard enough to move up to higher classes more quickly, and are therefore unlikely to be in contention for those awards.

Very well stated.

[JMIS]

The class system is useful for setting goals and judging your performance against people you don't know, but distributing valuable prizes to class winners is extremely disrespectful to those who work and train hard enough to move up to higher classes more quickly, and are therefore unlikely to be in contention for those awards.

Very well stated.

How in the world is it disrespectful to give a D class shooter a nice prize? Run a Level 2 or Area match for just GM's and M's, see how that works out? Hell of alot more C and D class shooters around.

I would also think if you win a Level 2 or Area match you should be moved up in class, could help with the sandbagging.

[Robert King]

All guns and other major prizes should be a raffle with the proceeds going to the cost of putting on the match or donated back to the shooting sports. Small prizes by random draw. Put on a great match and most will not care about the table. Those who do, who cares.

[JMIS]

All guns and other major prizes should be a raffle with the proceeds going to the cost of putting on the match or donated back to the shooting sports. Small prizes by random draw. Put on a great match and most will not care about the table. Those who do, who cares.

Like it.

[HI5-O]

All guns and other major prizes should be a raffle with the proceeds going to the cost of putting on the match or donated back to the shooting sports. Small prizes by random draw. Put on a great match and most will not care about the table. Those who do, who cares.

Like it.

yeah, like this years Area 1 match

[tk4]

I am glad to finally see a thread about prize tables where the majority seems to favor rewarding excellence (by order of finish) rather than mediocrity (random draw).

Maybe our country stands a chance after all.

[redwoods]

My favorite match is the Rocky Mountain 300, put on by Jerry Westcott.

Everyone gets a cafeteria tray with prizes on it, given out by pulling names out of a hat. My wife who is D class got prizes!

You get plaques for finishes in your class and division, AND, you get cash for where you place in your class and division.

If your class and division has the most shooters in it, you get the most money. 1st, 2nd, and 3rd get plaque and money. The most money to first.

I won C class limited a couple years ago and he said it was the most money given out since I had the most amount of shooters in my class and division.

Entry fee is $85. I got around $110 plus a plaque and then prizes from the hat draw where everyone goes home with something.

The next year I was in B class, and not as many shooters in my class but still had money for placing in top three.

Jerry does a lot of work calling for sponsorships for the match, but the money for placing in your class and division comes from entry fees. I personally like this system best.

Randy

[remoandiris]

I am glad to finally see a thread about prize tables where the majority seems to favor rewarding excellence (by order of finish) rather than mediocrity (random draw).

Absolutely!! The excellent are great enough to keep this organization solvent. No need to give the mediocre a chance at anything besides the toaster shakings. Their match fee, while equal to the excellent, isn't worthy. Yes, that is sarcasm.

IMO, the manner Area 1 did it this year was fantastic! Banquet, raffle, random draw for a variety of door prizes. For the match, the top shooters by class/division received a plaque.

Edited June 23, 2012 by remoandiris

[Bshooter]

See how many top shooter, talking about the GMs, that win a gun at a major match will keep that gun. Most will sell it because they want the money more than the gun. Not saying all do it but most will.

[Chuck Anderson]

Here's an idea. If you want the prize distribution to be X. Run a match. Contact the sponsors, get your table, and run it however you see fit. You'll probably get shooters just about anything you do. If you're good at it, this BS about C and D class shooters funding the table for GM's goes away. The last couple Area matches I did had six figure prize tables. 95% (probably more) of that was donated. We made very few purchases because, like most prize tables, almost all of it was donated. The few things we did buy were very close to the match when we knew we hit the break even point. After that we put the overage back into the prize table to reward all the shooters.

[Paul-the new guy]

my personal opinion is if the prizes only go to the best of the best the ones that pay all the money will soon lose interest. How many matches would there be if only the same 10 shooters showed up? Butts in the seats are what gets sponsors to donate prizes. Call and try and get some sponsors for a 10 person match...Then call and tell them you have 300 shooters... We don't shoot for the prizes but no one turns them down. Hell I was excited to win a $5.00 off your next match at my local club!

[Chills1994]

In my perfect little opinionated world where I would be a king for a day, the best compromise I have come up with is to disregard classes entirely. The division winners go to the prize table first. Then whatever is left gets randomed/raffled off.

Again, in my opinion, it's not fair for the D's, C's, and B's to finance the prize table for the A's, M's, and GM's .

As far as the lewis system goes, there are so many combinations and permutations of the lewis system it's mind boggling.

With respect to the classification system being some metric by which you can measure your progess, I ask this:

where has USPSA HQ published the high hit factors?

Is there a records page of sorts to be found some where... Back in 1991, Mike Powell set the record for the long jump at 29 feet 4 and a half inches. Who holds the record for the El Prez?

I know that a yard is 36 inches, a pound is 16 ounces, a cup is 8 ounces... What or where is this metric at that we are supposed to be measuring our progress by?

[amish_rabbi]

wanted to put my $0.02 cents in, I run the steel challenge matches at my club and I do a mix of top place finish prizes and random draw. This does depend on what i get for prizes as well, if i dont get alot it all goes to random draw, if i get a decent amount i make sure the best in classes get something good (if not the best of what i got) and then the rest to random draw.

keep in mind these are local matches and if all i did was give to the best i can tell you exactly who would win every month in each class and while we all shoot for fun, the chance to win a cool prize is a big draw and i have alot of expensive steel to pay for

[gose]

Again, in my opinion, it's not fair for the D's, C's, and B's to finance the prize table for the A's, M's, and GM's .

So someone puts in a lot more time, effort and money to get really good and you think its unfair that he gets a better prize than someone who doesnt?

my personal opinion is if the prizes only go to the best of the best the ones that pay all the money will soon lose interest. How many matches would there be if only the same 10 shooters showed up? Butts in the seats are what gets sponsors to donate prizes. Call and try and get some sponsors for a 10 person match...Then call and tell them you have 300 shooters... We don't shoot for the prizes but no one turns them down. Hell I was excited to win a $5.00 off your next match at my local club!

Really? Look at the "outlaw" 3-gun matches, not a single one has classes. All prize tables are by overall order of finish (with maybe one exception, but they still give prizes to the top 3, I think) and many of those matches sell out in a matter of minutes, some even in seconds, and at around $250 they dont come cheap. The number of matches as well as the number of competitors have multiplied over the last few years and it doesnt seem to slow down, even with the "unfair" way the matches distribute prizes...

This discussion wouldnt even happen if there wasnt a classification system. People seem to feel entitled to stuff when they happen to be the best shooter in some arbitrary group of shooters. I guess I just firmly believe that performance should be rewarded, I was never much for the group-hug "we're all equally good" mentality... Suck it up or practice more

(yes, a little drift since the topic was on USPSA majors, but I think it's still applicable)

Edited June 26, 2012 by gose

[Chills1994]

If you're going to quote me, quote the whole post instead of cherry picking one sentence.

I'll write it one more time: the division champs get to go to the prize table first, preferably in order of the most populated division to least populated. Anything left gets raffled off, must be present to win.

To answer your question.... I haven't looked lately but it's typically the U's, D's, C's, and B's who outnumber the A's, M's, GM's usually by a fair number at major matches. I think it is not fair for the lower 3 classes to foot the bill for the upper three class's prizes.

That's my opinion, anyway. I never said it was wrong or right, just my opinion.

[DWFAN]

If you're going to quote me, quote the whole post instead of cherry picking one sentence.

I'll write it one more time: the division champs get to go to the prize table first, preferably in order of the most populated division to least populated. Anything left gets raffled off, must be present to win.

To answer your question.... I haven't looked lately but it's typically the U's, D's, C's, and B's who outnumber the A's, M's, GM's usually by a fair number at major matches. I think it is not fair for the lower 3 classes to foot the bill for the upper three class's prizes.

That's my opinion, anyway. I never said it was wrong or right, just my opinion.

Even if match fee $$ is not used on prizes ?

How many "Big" matches buy prizes, and how much of the table is purchased vs donated? (I dont know, I'm really asking)

My opinion is that straight order of finish within division is best, with order of finish and some random draw next, and 100% random draw the least desireable, but better than awarding classes. Match directors should make their prize policy known a head of time, so entrants can vote with their entry fee.

It is also my opinion, that awarding big or valuble prizes based on class, awards sandbaggers.

[chevyoneton]

The quote button seems to not be working for me so I cut and pasted the following from another post: "Having a significant amount of the prize table available for random drawings would encourage those people to consider attending a few major matches. And the growth of our major matches into bigger and bigger events that draw more shooters should be a major focus of our organization.

The people winning guns at our major matches now are the last people who need them, and in many cases, probably the LEAST interested in winning them besides for the economic value of flipping them on the classifieds as quickly as possible.

Providing strong incentives for shooters of all levels to shoot major matches is NOT just about making everyone into a "winner," but rather, for creating a set of incentives that encourages the growth of our sport. If the pros and other GMs have to take a "haircut" in that they have fewer large prizes available to them, so be it."

Speaking as one of the D class pukes so many are looking down on, I want at least a chance at something from the table if I spring for a Major Match entry fee. I work hard all year at the local matches, designing, setting up, and breaking down stages and shoot as much as I can to the best of my physical ablity. I do not expect Pro Football Player money, or even Pro shooter money but I would like to know that I have a chance to not only shoot a nice match but a chance at some loot too! I shot a "Major" last week, my first one. For my $150 entry fee I picked up a $255 value (random) prize off the table. I have attended and supported EVERY match this club has EVER had, the ONLY person to do so. The sport needs all levels of shooters U, D, and above. As to the sandbagger issue, I do not have an answer. It is sad what some people will do to win a prize.