Unannounced Chrono stage at Level 1 Club Match

[Seth]

Again... this is simple. Go race ANYTHING. There's a tech inpection. Always.

[Maksim]

Minimum: the least quantity or amount possible, assignable, allowable, or the like. Guys it is CLEARLY spelled out in the rules! It's not about playing "gotcha" or range nazi, the rules were put in place to keep a level playing field for all competitors. You can come up with all these excuses for not complying but in the end you are either compliant or non-compliant. I don't see the difference between a level 1 or 3, it's called competition for a reason.

If you are a new shooter and really didn't know, well you just got a cheap lesson. You probably weren't in the running anyway.

With prize tables at level one matches being in the tens of thousands of dollars a chrono stage is acceptable.

Back on planet Earth. I wouldn't like a surprise stage for the following reasons.

1. I shoot factory ammo and would like to know in advance to ensure that I bring samples of the ammo I have to be checked. You know. Prevent possible future problems.

2. My guns have different barrel lengths and I would like to see how barrel length impacts PF.

3. I don't want to waste time, money and energy.

4. Of course to be sure I can always break out the 41 mag or the 44 mag. I'm quite sure there will be no problem making PF.

5. Yea I know what the rules say but this is a level one match. The people you probably shoot with on a regular basis or travel to other matches with. The ones you hang with. An unannounced chrono stage is saying you think someone is cheating and it won't matter what the rules say because some of your shooters will be offended and some wont care at least publicly. People tend to react negatively when the suspicion of cheating is leveled at them which an unannounced chrono stage is added when none had been conducted in the past. Do you want the angst such an action will cause. Yea I know someone is going to point out the rules but I would suggest that said stage be announced in advance to avoid any problems and after that state that it will become a regular feature of the match.

So then what other rules do you ignore? Do we let open guys shoot in production? Do we ignore penalties because it is a lvl 1 match?

1 & 2... those are your own problems. You are responsible for that.

3. How is it a waste of time, money and energy?

If you do not want to comply with USPSA match rules, don't have a uspsa match.

I think more people, especially newbies value a chrono at a local match, because most would not have access to one otherwise. They can use it to confirm what they have, before possibly getting disqualified at a major match.

[Wild Gene]

I still don't get the "store bought ammo" thing. I didn't search every manufacturer, but for a 180 grain .40 to make major, it would have to travel 917 fps. For a 9mm to make minor a 115 would have to travel 1087 fps and a 124 would have to travel 1008 fps. I couldn't find anything that was under that. The only way anyone would know is if they had access to a chrony.

wg

[Chills1994]

at Wild Gene, you have to be skeptical of any velocity data that a manufacturer puts out as marketing their ammo. In most cases, probably 99% of the time, the velocity is from a special test barrel or test fixture. As far as SAAMI specs go, I think the industry standard is a 24 inch barrel for rifle ammo.

[warpspeed]

Great job everyone !!!!

Thanks!

Your welcome. now where did i put that box of gold stars.

[diehli]

Great job everyone !!!!

Thanks!

Your welcome. now where did i put that box of gold stars.

Probably locked up with the paste. Y'know, so the, uh, "special" kids don't eat it.

[ima45dv8]

Probably locked up with the paste. Y'know, so the, uh, "special" kids don't eat it.

This from someone with their finger up their nose!

:roflol:

[Skydiver]

ICORE allows certain Factory Ammo to be used without worry of PF, and it's low enough to start with.

Doesn't the World Shoot, and/or other IPSC upper Level Matches, allow for the use of specified ammo without PF worries?

Yes.

For USPSA matches, see Appendix C3. For IPSC matches, see section 5.8. Both rule sections basically says that if there is Official Match Ammo offered at the match, the manufacturer declares the ammo as Major (or Minor). As long as it shoots consistently out of your gun (even if below the required minimums), then it'll be deemed as Major (or Minor).

[Skydiver]

I still don't get the "store bought ammo" thing. I didn't search every manufacturer, but for a 180 grain .40 to make major, it would have to travel 917 fps. For a 9mm to make minor a 115 would have to travel 1087 fps and a 124 would have to travel 1008 fps. I couldn't find anything that was under that. The only way anyone would know is if they had access to a chrony.

wg

See this post: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=111434&view=findpost&p=1438998

And a few examples in this thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=129946&view=findpost&p=1464245

[Maksim]

Every factory 40 cal I threw over my chrono easily made PF.

The only ammo that did not make power factor, was 115 grain CCI Blazer factory 9mm.

[Skydiver]

Every factory 40 cal I threw over my chrono easily made PF.

The only ammo that did not make power factor, was 115 grain CCI Blazer factory 9mm.

Good for you! I would have also expected factory .40 to easily make major. Unfortunately, last year I saw an exception: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=129946&view=findpost&p=1493571

[sperman]

Every factory 40 cal I threw over my chrono easily made PF.

The only ammo that did not make power factor, was 115 grain CCI Blazer factory 9mm.

Out of what gun? Glocks are known to have faster barrels than other manufacturers, and barrel length comes into play also.

[joseywales]

Every factory 40 cal I threw over my chrono easily made PF.

The only ammo that did not make power factor, was 115 grain CCI Blazer factory 9mm.

That's surprising - all I used during my 1st two years was 115g CCI Blazer (aluminum-cased) factory 9mm.

At L2 & L3 matches, it ALWAYS chrono'd between 135-140 power factor (Glock 34).

[bbbean]

I still don't get the "store bought ammo" thing. I didn't search every manufacturer, but for a 180 grain .40 to make major, it would have to travel 917 fps. For a 9mm to make minor a 115 would have to travel 1087 fps and a 124 would have to travel 1008 fps. I couldn't find anything that was under that. The only way anyone would know is if they had access to a chrony.

wg

Atlanta Arms and WWB have both made minor out of my Para P16. Atlanta Arms makes minor out of at least 2 of my .45s. Fortunately, I discovered this in the back yard and not at a match.

BB

[Wild Gene]

I still don't get the "store bought ammo" thing. I didn't search every manufacturer, but for a 180 grain .40 to make major, it would have to travel 917 fps. For a 9mm to make minor a 115 would have to travel 1087 fps and a 124 would have to travel 1008 fps. I couldn't find anything that was under that. The only way anyone would know is if they had access to a chrony.

wg

See this post: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=111434&view=findpost&p=1438998

And a few examples in this thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=129946&view=findpost&p=1464245

All the better reason to have a chronograph at Level 1 matches. If a guy buys his ammo, believing it is up to par, they should not be treated as a cheater, but to have the opportunity to know before they go to a larger match is not a bad thing.

WG

[Wild Gene]

I still don't get the "store bought ammo" thing. I didn't search every manufacturer, but for a 180 grain .40 to make major, it would have to travel 917 fps. For a 9mm to make minor a 115 would have to travel 1087 fps and a 124 would have to travel 1008 fps. I couldn't find anything that was under that. The only way anyone would know is if they had access to a chrony.

wg

Atlanta Arms and WWB have both made minor out of my Para P16. Atlanta Arms makes minor out of at least 2 of my .45s. Fortunately, I discovered this in the back yard and not at a match.

BB

Interesting, did you contact Danny? It is one of the benefits of shooting their ammo, you can talk to someone that cares about what you think and get real feedback.

WG

[Wild Gene]

As long as Classifiers from Level 1 matches count toward determining your classification, then I do not see why PF shouldn't count too, announced or unannounced. What we do at level 1 matches does affect things all the way to the top. (does that make sense?)

wg

[RePete]

I don't know why people are getting their knickers in a bunch, the rule is there that you can chrono, no mention that it has to be announced, so deal with it and get over it.

Whether you reload or buy factory or remanufactured, the responsibility is the shooters to make sure their ammo is up to par PERIOD. As previously said, don't go by the manufacturer info, because most of the time it's wrong - velocity wise.

If you don't own a chrono, buy one, rent one, borrow one or go out with a friend/aquantance and chrono your ammo from your gun.

[CZinSC]

As long as Classifiers from Level 1 matches count toward determining your classification, then I do not see why PF shouldn't count too, announced or unannounced. What we do at level 1 matches does affect things all the way to the top. (does that make sense?)

wg

I've been trying to think of way to convey this very argument in a short concise non rambling reply. So thank you!

[Reshoot]

As long as Classifiers from Level 1 matches count toward determining your classification, then I do not see why PF shouldn't count too, announced or unannounced. What we do at level 1 matches does affect things all the way to the top. (does that make sense?)

wg

EXACTLY! Well put, and to the point.

One could even make the argument that the rules should be changed, requiring chrono before a classifier is shot at any match. That too, would be okay with me.

Whoa, did another can of worms just get opened?!

[Thomas H]

One could even make the argument that the rules should be changed, requiring chrono before a classifier is shot at any match. That too, would be okay with me.

Oh, that'll make you some friends!

[Biloxi23]

At the 2011 Louisiana Gator classic, the officials showed up just as we were getting ready to shoot a stage, and actually pulled the chrono ammo out of magazines that everyone had loaded, ready to shoot. The 8 rounds were placed in a plastic bag with the shooter's name on it and when you got to the chrono station they pulled you bag out and tested the ammo.

The Gator is a level II match.

[cas]

When do they stop being "new guys"? If New Guy shoots ammo XYZ through his gun this week and it's sub minor, four years from now it's probably still going to be sub minor. I don't want to punish the new guys, but they have to find out at some point!

I'm also a proponent of announcing chrono stages and NOT having them.

[Sarge]

When do they stop being "new guys"?

Uhh-greed. Before I ever set foot on a COF I knew there were rules pertaining to ammo as well as many other things in the sport. Even though I was shooting factory ammo and did not have a chrono it was all I had at the time. I knew if it failed to make PF I was screwed but I never felt like I was being punished. Getting into this game requires a certain amount of effort on the part of the "new guys".

[waktasz]

I'm also a proponent of announcing chrono stages and NOT having them.

Oooo, nasty!