I'm still struggling with swingers

[Xander]

Any advices or suggetions, drills whatever for me to improve on swingers. I'm shooting IPSC Prod with my CZ Shadow. I usually get A and C?D, C/D, but mostly misses TIA

[sirveyr]

I think the reason that we get A and C/D hits is because we start to shoot the swinger after it has stopped. Instead, we should be shooting the first A as the swinger is beginning to slow down and the second A as it is beginning to swing back. It sounds much easier on paper than it is to execute.

[mlmiller1]

Without seeing you shoot, are you trying to "double tap" instead of getting a sight picture on each shot at every target? Some folks have never learned about getting a sight picture for every shot & they shoot the first shot with a sight picture & then just hammer the trigger for the second shot. I was guilty of that for a long time. I had it perfected, hahaha, until I realized often I had an A & "something else" & I didn't ever know what the something else was until we went out & scored the target. I had to take two steps back(maybe three) in my shooting development & start over, much slower, especially on swingers or moving targets until I got to the point where I could call most of my shots, even on swingers. Then I could push on. If you can't see in your mind like it is a stop action photo where your sights were as you fired each shot, you are probably "double tapping".

If you have access to a swinger, get it swinging slowly, then shoot two shots, at least. Keeping in mind you need to know where your sights were pointing when you broke the shot EVERY time. Then if you can do that, speed up the swing. Keep on speeding it up until you fail. Slow it back down & start over. That is one drill you might try.

MLM

[outerlimits]

Control your swiger-always actvate them in a manner where YOU have the gun on the swinger when it appears.

[Xander]

I think the reason that we get A and C/D hits is because we start to shoot the swinger after it has stopped. Instead, we should be shooting the first A as the swinger is beginning to slow down and the second A as it is beginning to swing back. It sounds much easier on paper than it is to execute.

very true indeed, and that was what I have in mind the next time I shoot in practice, tnx

[Steve Anderson]

I told a newer shooter once that talking about swingers is vey difficult. (I actually used a very inappropriate analogy not fit for a family forum)

The problem is that we never get to practice on them. So I built a dry fire swinger. Problem solved.

I still dob't know how to (tell you how to) shoot them, but I miss them a lot less.

EK built a duplicate of mine and can post a photo very quickly I'm sure.

SA

[Wild Gene]

Swingers are a brian thing. Don't let them play with your brain.

Get your stop watch out one time and play with it while watching a swinger. Watch for the maximum time the swinger is exposed and time it at that spot. Usually when it is all the way to the left or the right. Try and shoot it when it is at that spot. (tough to explain) Anyway, with your timer, you may notice that it is exposed and almost holding still when it is changing directions for a longer period of time than what your normal splits are on a normal stationary target. Try and shoot at the swinger when it is at the almost stationary point as it changes direction, not when it is going 100mph across the top of its arc. Don't follow the the swinger with your gun back and forth, it costs too much time for most shooters.

Something else about shooting swingers quickly is to remember that you should really know how long it takes from the time you hit the activation target to the time the swinger is in its optimum shooting position. It may take 1.5 seconds from the time you shoot the activator to the time the swinger is available to shoot. If you know your transition times, you may have time to shoot your steel, then pick up a few paper target or two then go back to your swinger. You can also use this method to let the swinger slow down if it stops in a visible position (which is usually never ).

**After rereading the thread, I think I just repeated what sirveyr said.**

Something to think about.

wg

Edited February 5, 2012 by Wild Gene

[rgkeller]

Get the sights where the target is going to be rather than trying to swing the sights to the target

[Sin-ster]

I've actually had the chance to shoot quite a few swingers as of late, and have never really had an issue with them. This thread got me wondering "why"...

First and foremost, I ambush them-- and at the transition/slow down point that sirveyr and Gene are talking about. That means the gun (and more specifically, the sights) are waiting for the target to come to them-- not the other way around. It takes a critical eye and a lot of "feel", as you'll be indexed on non-A-zone parts of the target, or even dead space in the process.

I also use a hard focus on the front sight once I've settled in to this "ambush position". However, my vision is opened up (and tuned into) the movement of the swinger in the periphery. I too agree (with sirveyr) that shooting when the A-zone first appears behind the front post is ideal, as it gives you that much more time during the pause to break your second shot. When done properly, the target literally seems as if it's not moving.

Last Saturday, in a little "fun match", we had a swinger that was obscured by two angled No Shoots, to the point where only the upper 40% or so of the A-zone was visible. Obviously, there was no way to engage it at the pause-- the swinger was in full motion when the scoring surface was visible. Again, I used the ambush technique coupled with hard focus on the front sight-- and fortunately, the heads of the No Shoots provided a very nice point of reference for my hold. I'd say the swinger itself was middle of the road in terms of speed, and I was pissed that in 3 runs, I never got 10 Alphas. (My worst was 6 A's, 3C, 1D; my best was 8 As, 2Cs.) The same techniques applied, however.

Some general tips:

1) Don't chase the target, ever. I've seen a lot of folks, even when they start out in the ambush mindset, move the sight along the path of the swinger's travel as they're breaking a shot (typically 2nd, but sometimes the 1st as well). Mikes and No Shoots are the typical result; I'd call any scoring hit at all lucky at that point.

2) Watch the swinger during the initial walkthrough, and as others shoot it. Do your level best to get the same angle as you'll have when shooting the CoF. This is the best way to figure out where to hold for the ambush, as well as figuring out the timing.

3) Give "atomic/nuclear" swingers a few bobs before engaging, if you've got other targets in the array and the transitions won't cost you time. I've discovered the fast ones typically slow down more rapidly than the average speed.

4) Get the sights and your eyes to the spot as early as possible, without costing yourself too much time. If you happen to catch the swinger too late in its arc, you'll have to judge whether or not questionable hits are going to be worth it.

Keep in mind that a lot of these principles apply to other moving targets with similar behavior-- especially bobbers. It may sound odd to say, but I feel like several years of video gaming is responsible for my success on these types of targets; it's all about tracking motion in the periphery, in my experience.

[BOOST]

1) Don't chase the target, ever.

I've also saw a video that TJ also said not to chase a target . But for some reason I ALWAYS chase it . I dont seem to have a problem doing so, so i just stick to it. I dont even add insurance shots.To add, I prefer the swinger to be fast instead of trying to activate early like other shooters do. MY problem is i dont know how to explain to my son or other shooters when they ask me the proper way to engage swingers.

[works for ammo]

At my skill level or lack thereof anything past 12 yards i shoot one shot wait for it to return and then shoot another.

a little slower but usally get both hits.

Edited February 8, 2012 by works for ammo

[Sin-ster]

1) Don't chase the target, ever.

I've also saw a video that TJ also said not to chase a target . But for some reason I ALWAYS chase it . I dont seem to have a problem doing so, so i just stick to it. I dont even add insurance shots.To add, I prefer the swinger to be fast instead of trying to activate early like other shooters do. MY problem is i dont know how to explain to my son or other shooters when they ask me the proper way to engage swingers.

I should have stipulated-- there are definitely guys out there who can do it effectively. That's a real testament to your shooting ability, any way you slice it!

I've managed it at least twice (that I can recall), and did so rather successfully. I simply wrote it off to blind luck, though! Maybe I'm selling myself short.

In any event, I think that ability boils down to your desire to keep the sights in the A-zone. You *know* where the A-zone is on that swinging target, and your skills allow you to keep the sights indexed there as you break the shots. Obviously, if it's working for you-- stick with it!

For folks already having trouble with swingers, though... It's probably a bad idea for them to try it out.

[pjb45]

Mike Seeklander addresses the problem of movers in an article in Front Sight magazine, then later in his books.

Mike says "Ambush It." This is the best way to get your hits. Place your front sight in the area where you want to shoot the swinger.

Most of the time (except at Area 2 which is well know for some atomic swingers :-) ) you can see the target drop, pause and return. Typically the pause is the one place where the target will rest. He suggested looking at the backstop for where previously shooter's bullets hit the dirt. This can give you an idea of where you might want to place your front sights.

The second part of the process is understanding how long your splits take. If you have a .35 splits on a static target, and the swinger rests for .5 seconds then you need to convince yourself you have plenty of time for the second shot.

Since I know my reaction time is pretty slow, I like the idea of beginning to break my shot as the target approaches the resting spot, rather than after it rests. This anticipation can allow me .3 seconds to react (break the shot) as the target starts to rest, and .35 seconds for the follow up shot,before it starts to move again. When I anticipate I can get two alphas, otherwise, it is an alpha charlie.

At both Area 2 and WSSSC had a stage which consisted of an activator, static, bear trap and drop turner on the left side (and almost the same on the right side). The bear trap (drop out) and drop turner (one exposure) were both activated at the same time. The best points were achieve by the shooter anticipating when the best exposures were available-move the gun to the sweet spot before the target was exposed and breaking the shots when the targets were available. Most shooters I saw AMBUSHED the targets.

As a side note: I think GMan - Bart took a class that taught how to keep pace with the swinger.

[TWHaz]

http://www.predatortactical.com/cart.php?m=knowledgebase_detail&id=5

Thanks to; Matt Burkett

Edited February 14, 2012 by TWHaz

[jeremy kemlo]

Dont go too fast. take 3 shots. When others shoot look at where it slows down, I like to have my sights waiting at that point and then break the shots as it slows and as it leaves.

[czfan]

Dont go too fast. take 3 shots. When others shoot look at where it slows down, I like to have my sights waiting at that point and then break the shots as it slows and as it leaves.

Wouldn't taking 3 shots promote a bad habit?

Not intending to argue, but looking for the best way to train.

[sirveyr]

Dont go too fast. take 3 shots. When others shoot look at where it slows down, I like to have my sights waiting at that point and then break the shots as it slows and as it leaves.

Wouldn't taking 3 shots promote a bad habit?

Not intending to argue, but looking for the best way to train.

Yes.

We need to train ourselves to take extra shots...only when our sights tell us to.

[shooterbenedetto]

If there's a swinger at the match, stay later and practice if MD is ok with it..Practice it and make notes!!

[blaster113]

thanks all for the tips; I have a hard time with swingers and usually dump an extra shot or two for insurance which of course wastes time. funny thing is I usually have nearly all of my hits I'll be setting up a swinger on my next practice session and will be going full blast for it

[digby7]

i used to auto dump 3 rounds on the swinger when it started slowing down and then move on, i'm slowly getting better at calling two shots and not taking a 3rd insurance shot.

[CHA-LEE]

When shooting swinging targets find the closest exposed point of the A zone when compared to the center line of the swinging arc of the target. This will be the slowest portion of the highest scoring area of the target that you can track with the sights. Track the movement of the A zone on the target as it becomes exposed. For left or right side exposed swingers break the first shot a little before it reaches the downward movement pause, then break the second shot as it comes back up from the pause. Shooting it before and after the bottom swing pause, instead of at the pause allows for you to break two accurate A zone shots. Verses one good shot at the pause and a “Hoper” follow up shot as you try and engage it again before it comes up from the paused position. For swingers that are only exposed at the top when they are only seen during full motion, again find the lowest A zone hit position. Then look for visual markers on the barriers that are blocking the rest of the swingers motion to know where the A zone will appear and disappear during each sweep of the target. Align the sights at these “Marker” positions and track the target in the A zone and only engage it once per swing. Wait for it to come back the other direction for the second shot. One shot per swing or two really depends on how quickly the target is swinging and how blocked its travel is.

[Ontarget]

So you for an average speed or fast speed swinger, your shots should always lead the target a little bit?

[spideysteve]

Saul K talks about swingers in his book, Thinking Practical Shooting and also in his dry fire manual. He talks about the same things as above, waiting for the swinger, or ambushing it as some have called it here.

Make a practice swinger and play with it ... A guy I shoot with made one out of some 2x4s and 1x4s for us to practice on. Really easy to make and even though it's not fast and comes to a stop after about 4 swings, it gives us something to practice on. I will take some pics of it next week at our practice and post here.

[sperman]

Make sure you are watching your sights, and not the swinger. I know that made a big difference for me.

[CHA-LEE]

So you for an average speed or fast speed swinger, your shots should always lead the target a little bit?

No. You want to track the movement of the swinger with the gun and break the shots as the gun is tracking with the target. Don't worry about how much the swinger will move between the time of the bullet leaving the barrel and hitting the target. Since we are pretty close to the swinging targets (within 25 yards) you don't have to account for the target movement while the bullet is in flight. If you do the math it only comes out to MAYBE 1 - 2 inches of swinging target movement by the time the bullet gets to the target and this is with a very fast swinger.

More often than not people miss on Swingers because they are not aiming at all and simply slinging a bunch of rounds in the swingers general area hoping that they will hit it. Track the target and shoot it once right before the downward stroke lull, let the gun recoil as the target pauses in the lull, then track the target back up and break your second shot. Doing it this way makes getting two solid "A's" on any swinger pretty easy.