USPSA BOD Meeting

[Flexmoney]

My guess is that the 30 opinions here represent far less than ...

Even if your numbers are correct (and they obviously aren't), they represent about 15x more member opinions from Production shooters than were represented art the BOD meeting that I attended.

[sperman]

Do you think the board will ever tell us what they spent on SC?

[Flexmoney]

I say that it has proven impossible for USPSA to keep on top of all the new gadgets and modifications that get invented every year.

Well there's your problem. You think USPSA should. I think it shouldn't and the rules should be sufficiently flexible to keep up with ever changing market while maintaining a competitive environment.

Exactly!!

And, I don't think it is all that hard to do. It might not be easy, and some might not want to deal with it, but it isn't that hard.

Also, we do pay DNROI a salary for this kind of stuff, for one...and, we have a Rules Committee.

Not to mention a couple of looong-time Production shooters sitting on the BOD now.

It is kind of ironic, actually... I recall Chuck and I both, basically, volunteering to help the NRA AP/Bianchi folks write up the rules for their new Production division (to avoid the pitfalls and growing pains we already went through). They didn't take us up on it.

[TGO]

And now USPSA will start running into the same problems the NRA did when not taking the experience USPSA already had with Production class. They have had to amend their rules to create equality among platforms and let a shooter be competitive with any gun type or manufacture. What has been the most varied class of firearms category is being manipulated. Why I ask, Why? (pretty dramatic there me thinks!)

Seriously though, Why is this being done. When the BOD said we couldn't shoot major 9mm because the pressures were unsafe, when we did not set for the sake of competitive equality, limits to magazine capacity (regardless of what that capacity might be) when we keep L10 when there is no reason for it, etc. etc. we see a pattern of not being in touch with the needs of the sport.

We now shoot major 9, we have magazine lengths, not capacities in two classes ( the only two classes that regularly get competitors in open or disqualified due to capacity). Does everyone really need to buy a gauge? Any other form of competition I have been involved in tells you how big or how much you can have. It works well and is easily controlled. We still have L10, a category that was created for 2 reasons. To allow the low capacity limited guns we all had (read Single Stack) to be competitive and prepare us to live with a federal mag capacity ban. We ignored the law when in place, but still have the class.

Maybe it's just me but I have been in this sport longer than most and have lived with lots of rules and changes I don't see the point of. When I was a kid we had a 55 MPH speed limit to conserve fuel. That went away. Maybe we can kill these restrictions on production before they take place. If you want to make folks happy, allow the same round capacity that IPSC uses for production. Why doesn't that ever come up? I couldn't make a sound argument about that, except that some states only allow 10 rounds. Funny thing though, it is the restrictions on trigger pulls and weights that cause all the problems at the World level. USPSA has been without this, but I bet if this rule does go into effect, we are going to have a lot of unhappy production shooters getting bumped to a different class.

It's simple, we do not need this restriction.

Rob

[outerlimits]

TGO has spoken. As usual, spot on.

[Chills1994]

TGO has spoken. As usual, spot on.

Yeah, it's like those old E.F. Hutton commercials.

[MrPCHead]

My guess is that the 30 opinions here represent far less than ...

Even if your numbers are correct (and they obviously aren't), they represent about 15x more member opinions from Production shooters than were represented art the BOD meeting that I attended.

Harris or Gallup would absolutely KILL for a 1.5% sample.

-William Daugherty

[MarkCO]

Just an FYI...

In response to the note I sent out to my local section about the rules changes... Every MD (only 2 have not repsonded, several are GMs and several shoot Production) who responded has replied with an assertion that they are against the 3# rule (all copied to the AD). Of about 30 responses from members, only 1 was in favor of the 3# rule. The magnetic mag holders, not much discussion, a few responses.

[moverfive]

What kills me is that the BOD could be working on SC at this moment...instead of dealing with this mess. Talk about a time suck that wasn't needed.

While I'm not on the SC committee (it was pretty full), I've been chomping at the bit to help with SC. I planned on spending quite a bit of time on it over the holidays, which are now half over and have been filled with this trigger pull fiasco.

Let's hope this fiasco awakens a few of the BOD members that seem to want USPSA/BOD to act unilaterally of its membership. While many do not post on Enos, but based on the emails I have received from just my section - I think it is safe to assume that for every one poster here, there are many non-posters with similar opinions. And it appears based on these posts that (a) this 3lb trigger pull is not wanted and the membership has NO understanding of why it was passed and ( we expect the BOD to be more open about proposals and their reasons for them along with expecting an opportunity for us to provide feedback prior to any vote.

When this 3lb requirement came up a few years ago, I had lengthy discussions with a couple of AD's. And in my opinion, it sounded like they were searching for a logical reason to support this change but couldn't find one. One "reason" they did make was - what about future advancements like electronic triggers?

....IF something does come along that would be detrimental to or against the foundation of the sport: Bring it to the attention of membership and see how we feel about it. Give us the facts, we can then provide feedback to our AD's, and then they can vote based on the views of who they represent. What a concept! To do anything else is like saying the membership isn't capable of understanding what they want....we will make that decision for you.

[George Jones]

Seriously though, Why is this being done. When the BOD said we couldn't shoot major 9mm because the pressures were unsafe, when we did not set for the sake of competitive equality, limits to magazine capacity (regardless of what that capacity might be) when we keep L10 when there is no reason for it, etc. etc. we see a pattern of not being in touch with the needs of the sport. Rob

Rob,

With respect. L-10 is highly popular and supported in several areas of the country. Saying there is no reason for it is not accurate.

I base this on the siginificant membership feedback I received as AD8 (2007?) when it was speculated that the current (outgoing) President intended to do away with L-10. Perhaps some things have changed since then, but I doubt you would see a passive membership if it were to be removed now. There are a lot of guns out there that can play in L-10 which cannot play in SS.

[Nik Habicht]

Seriously though, Why is this being done. When the BOD said we couldn't shoot major 9mm because the pressures were unsafe, when we did not set for the sake of competitive equality, limits to magazine capacity (regardless of what that capacity might be) when we keep L10 when there is no reason for it, etc. etc. we see a pattern of not being in touch with the needs of the sport. Rob

Rob,

With respect. L-10 is highly popular and supported in several areas of the country. Saying there is no reason for it is not accurate.

I base this on the siginificant membership feedback I received as AD8 (2007?) when it was speculated that the current (outgoing) President intended to do away with L-10. Perhaps some things have changed since then, but I doubt you would see a passive membership if it were to be removed now. There are a lot of guns out there that can play in L-10 which cannot play in SS.

Rob,

not to pile on to what George said, but at the local level, L10 is a valuable entry division for those folks bringing their only gun, when that gun doesn't neatly fit into/won't be competitive in SS, Production, or Limited. L10 has worked well at that level for shooters bringing out a Sig220, Beretta 96, Glock 23, XD45, especially when those folks are shooting factory ammo.....

The above is based on what I saw during eight years of being involved in running and growing participation in 2 monthly club matches. During that time we went from averaging 25 entries to more than 50 at one, and from averaging mid 50s to mid 80s at the other....

[MarkCO]

Rob,

not to pile on to what George said, but at the local level, L10 is a valuable entry division for those folks bringing their only gun, when that gun doesn't neatly fit into/won't be competitive in SS, Production, or Limited. L10 has worked well at that level for shooters bringing out a Sig220, Beretta 96, Glock 23, XD45, especially when those folks are shooting factory ammo.....

The above is based on what I saw during eight years of being involved in running and growing participation in 2 monthly club matches. During that time we went from averaging 25 entries to more than 50 at one, and from averaging mid 50s to mid 80s at the other....

Sounds more like a good argument to replace L10 with Production Major.

[Chills1994]

Nik wrote:

....mid 50s to mid 80s at the other....

DAYUUMMNNN! That is a lot of shooters for a local club match.

Me? At some point I would like to get a Browning Hi Power or clone, probably in .40 S & W, and shoot it, most likely in the L-10 division.

I think they are HAWT!:

of course, I will have to do something about that hammer spur and/or the beavertail. Ouch, that'll leave a mark!

[George Jones]

of course, I will have to do something about that hammer spur and/or the beavertail. Ouch, that'll leave a mark!

Gamer!

[LPatterson]

Well I have waded through this again and I still have not seen anything about the unintended consequencies to the DA/SA crowd. The BOD voted for a first pull of 3lbs which trumps the Appendix D4 Special Conditions - Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal. So if a stage has an unloaded gun start, then the first trigger pull must be above 3lbs. That would mean that DA/SA guns would also have to be weighed in SA mode at the testing location. From what I have been reading on the 3# poll thread is that several people have commented that their SA pull is 2#. So it would require some DA/SA factory guns to be returned for trigger work or pay a gunsmith to increase trigger pull.

I also vaguely remember something in early comments that John Amidon entered the discussion with a complaint/comment that Springfield was buying a trigger from an outside vendor and installing them as OEM and they had a lighter trigger pull. So if this is true did someone on the BOD push this through because they are pissed at Springfield. If this rule change goes into effect, how is that going to affect all the sponsorship we get from Springfield? Most of the comments about 2# trigger pulls were from CZ owners, so how would that affect CZ sponsorship? In the military we called it collateral damage.

As for the magnet on the pouch, I think this is a knee jerk reaction by some purists that have forgotten the horse/cow has escaped the barn and they are trying to shove a sheep in it's place. We are not sheeple and we can be more trouble to control than herding a bunch of wet cats.

[Nik Habicht]

Rob,

not to pile on to what George said, but at the local level, L10 is a valuable entry division for those folks bringing their only gun, when that gun doesn't neatly fit into/won't be competitive in SS, Production, or Limited. L10 has worked well at that level for shooters bringing out a Sig220, Beretta 96, Glock 23, XD45, especially when those folks are shooting factory ammo.....

The above is based on what I saw during eight years of being involved in running and growing participation in 2 monthly club matches. During that time we went from averaging 25 entries to more than 50 at one, and from averaging mid 50s to mid 80s at the other....

Sounds more like a good argument to replace L10 with Production Major.

If you're going to make that a separate division, o.k......

Personally I think L10 works fine -- and SS (which really isn't cause it's limited to only 1911 single stacks) could easily go away...... :ph34r:

That was a joke. While SS isn't really popular in my neck of the woods, I know it took off like a greyhound chasing a rabbit in other parts of the country. Looking at the game from the local match perspective, I think the current division line-up is pretty perfect. Virtually almost any gun chambered in 9mm or higher can find a place to be competitive, and the different divisions offer different flavors of USPSA, from the fullblown race experience of Open, to the very deliberate approach Revolver shooters need to take....

I think that variety is great for the sport as a whole.....

[burningsquirrels]

I think the current division line-up is pretty perfect. Virtually almost any gun chambered in 9mm or higher can find a place to be competitive, and the different divisions offer different flavors of USPSA, from the fullblown race experience of Open, to the very deliberate approach Revolver shooters need to take....

I think that variety is great for the sport as a whole.....

+1. things were running fine, i felt that everything was equitable in production as it sat.

we had talk of an outlaw super stock pistol match here. basically the rules were much simpler. factory stock frame and slide, externally factory appearing except finish, sights, grips. no magwells. fire crontol (trigger, safety, mag release, decocker, slide stop) can be exchanged so long as they were also OEM or OEM spec parts. IMO that's all that's needed. forcing people to keep their guns stock won't attract anyone to the division, it'll only ruin the fun of those putting money into the sport.

[Nik Habicht]

Nik wrote:

....mid 50s to mid 80s at the other....

DAYUUMMNNN! That is a lot of shooters for a local club match.

Old Bridge in New Jersey. 7 stages in seven differently sized bays, that most months approach at least Sectional if not Area match quality. Combine that with a good assortment of props, some innovative (and occasionally downright devilish -- Hi Vlad and Slav) stage designers, solid officiating, and a twice a month USPSA style practice/introductory range session, and most of all an intensive recruitment process for shooters to buy-in to the match (as set-up/tear down labor, stage designers, ROs, etc.) and it's easy to see how Dave Marques and Jim Norman pulled that off.....

[Loves2Shoot]

I also vaguely remember something in early comments that John Amidon entered the discussion with a complaint/comment that Springfield was buying a trigger from an outside vendor and installing them as OEM and they had a lighter trigger pull.

Actually, replacing the plastic trigger does zero to make the trigger lighter, so if that was the case it was with no understanding of how the system works. Springfield has OEM'd a lot of parts from vendors for MANY of years.

[Vlad]

Nik is not lying, NJ is actually really good for USPSA shooting. Old Bridge had to limit attendance to like 75 for the winter months so they don't run out of light, and at Central Jersey I had to add one more stage to the match permanently because I had 65 shooters in November. If it wasn't for our dumb gun laws, I suspect it would be even better.

Perhaps because of those dumb gun laws, our attendance in production is pretty interesting. In November we had 21 production shooters our of 65. The 1/3 ratio is pretty constant through the year. I know this is not the norm around the country but over here this decision is going to anger a WHOLE LOT of people.

[spanky]

sounds about right. we had 74 at my last club match, 30 of which were production, followed by 26 limited and single digits of the other 4 divisions.

[Nik Habicht]

I also vaguely remember something in early comments that John Amidon entered the discussion with a complaint/comment that Springfield was buying a trigger from an outside vendor and installing them as OEM and they had a lighter trigger pull.

Actually, replacing the plastic trigger does zero to make the trigger lighter, so if that was the case it was with no understanding of how the system works. Springfield has OEM'd a lot of parts from vendors for MANY of years.

I'm not even sure that I understand what the crux of the original problem was -- if the concern was "how would chronodude tell the difference between a Powder Valley trigger bar sourced through SA, and a Powder Valley trigger bar sourced direct from Powder Valley," who cares? Is there really a difference? If the part is offered as a factory option by SA, it is legal. If a competitor happens to pick up the identical part direct from SA's supplier, are we going to be able to tell the difference, and do we care?

I'm not certain I could tell the difference, and I don't care....

[GForceLizard]

... People would just spend the same amount of money on a 2.5 pound short trigger and put it towards a short 3.5 pound trigger and we wouldn't have "fixed" anything. ...

Yup, things will be different. Not better, not worse, just different. Shooters are still going to want; increased reset feel on their M&P, smoother triggers, shorter reset, reduced take up, ... They are still going to spend lots of money on triggers. But starting Jan 2013 they have to follow the 3# rule.

[Chills1994]

I would hate to make more work for the guy, but I think Rob Boudrie would be able to look at the classifiers submitted for calendar year 2011 (versus say cy2010 and cy2009) and tell us if Production is growing or has grown....and/or compare the number of classifiers submitted for production versus the other divisions.

[Nik Habicht]

Nik is not lying, NJ is actually really good for USPSA shooting. Old Bridge had to limit attendance to like 75 for the winter months so they don't run out of light, and at Central Jersey I had to add one more stage to the match permanently because I had 65 shooters in November. If it wasn't for our dumb gun laws, I suspect it would be even better.

Perhaps because of those dumb gun laws, our attendance in production is pretty interesting. In November we had 21 production shooters our of 65. The 1/3 ratio is pretty constant through the year. I know this is not the norm around the country but over here this decision is going to anger a WHOLE LOT of people.

I just looked at the numbers for the Mid-Atlantic Section for 2010 (last year we have full activity numbers for.)

Across the Section:

Production 35.24 percent

Limited 25.35 percent

Open 21.17 percent

Limited 10 15.75 percent

Revolver 2.46 percent

So, in the section, one out of three competitors are in Production, and fifteen percent of our shooters are hanging out in L10.....

I realize there are no SS numbers. That's because for I was pulling the numbers out of slot distribution report -- and SS runs on a different calendar cycle. Given how unpopular SS is in the section, I wouldn't expect more than a 1-2 percent swing in those numbers.....

I'll revisit this when numbers become available for 2011.