Sarge Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Sorry Paul, but I totally disagree. USPSA is BOD run, and it is not a democracy except w.r.t. voting. If members fail to inform their ADs, NROI and the President of their views and wishes, that is lazy and should not then require them to accomodate such behavior. That would essentially make the BOD a voting proxy and therefore them being elected would no onger be required. Write your AD, I am sure he wants to hear your opinion! As much as I don't like the way this was done I hate to admit that this is how BOD's work. I'm on the board of my local club and we make decisions all the time that may adversely impact some or all members of the club. Still, I doubt we would make a decision of this magnitude without at least getting the word out we were considering it and giving the membership a chance to voice their thoughts or attend a meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Should I reinforce my thoughts to my outgoing A5 director, or to my incoming A5 director ??? Probably incoming, especially if you want to see the rule preserved..... :devil: (I think Kyle's reaction would have mirrored Gary's -- though of course I can't speak for either of them....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertbank Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Interesting. I have to wonder why USPSA did not follow IPSC and move to a 5# limit IF they were going to make the change in the first place. I am not advocating the 5# limit but they must have known some folks would be upset with a limit change in any event so why not at least align the decision with your International cousins. The one positive thing a 3# limit does is it will keep striker fired pistols in the game. With IPSC's 5# limit DA SA guns have the advantage of transitioning to a 2 - 3 pound SA pull while the striker fired guns remain at +5#s. Among the truly competitive shooters you hardly ever see a striker fired gun shooting Production in IPSC up here. Too, the Glock 34 is not a legal IPSC Production gun. Take care Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKSNIPER Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 First of all Sarge is right...everyone calm down before we storm the castle and burn the witches lets think about it. Trigger pull gauges (Lyman digital) are NOT expensive....I think I purchased mine for about 40-50 bucks a couple years ago. Easy to operate and gives a digital readout of the pull so theres no arguing over the weight being used is actually over 3 pounds etc... Also if you think you need a lighter trigger to shoot better you better get your ass to the range and get more trigger time. I saw a guy shoot a rifle with a trigger that measured WAAAAY over the ASA standard 4.5-5.5 pounds and shoot great with it. Next guy thought the safety was on when he went to fire it the pull was so heavy. Rudy had never fired rifles before so when it was issued to him with the mega pull he just figured that it was supposed to be that way and adjusted HIMSELF rather than trying to customize the weapon. Its like guys that insist on shooting their variable power scoped rifles on the highest power setting all the time. Scopes don't help you SHOOT better they help you SEE better. I shoot production (when I can get out to shoot) with my old issued Grock with the NY trigger in it and I do ok. IMHO the 3 pound rule is not that big of a deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Thanks to everyone for your comments. Phil, thanks for posting. Having read what you have said, I would suggest that one of your first orders of business would be to re-visit this issue once you take office. Ask the AD's to get feedback from their SC's, ask the membership for feedback and opinions. Put a moratorium on this until you can spend time and hear what we have to say. Reach out to us. We don't need Imperial Presidency's. people voted for a change from what was there. Doing business as usual is no change. It is OUR organization, talk to us. if we don't know what the topics are you are voting on, how can we comment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 First of all Sarge is right...everyone calm down before we storm the castle and burn the witches lets think about it. Trigger pull gauges (Lyman digital) are NOT expensive....I think I purchased mine for about 40-50 bucks a couple years ago. Easy to operate and gives a digital readout of the pull so theres no arguing over the weight being used is actually over 3 pounds etc... Also if you think you need a lighter trigger to shoot better you better get your ass to the range and get more trigger time. I guess if everyone had the money and time to buy new equipment and get enough range time, we wouldn't even need these silly rules. New shooters would already be up to speed and probably shooting Open Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 maybe come 2013 we will have a bunch of guys start shooting Limited Minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 on a more serious note, when it comes to parliamentary procedure, didn't anyone have the gumption to shout "POINT OF ORDER!" and make a motion to table the discussion until the next BOD meeting, especially when 3 guys are getting replaced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdm74 Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Thanks to everyone for your comments. Phil, thanks for posting. Having read what you have said, I would suggest that one of your first orders of business would be to re-visit this issue once you take office. Ask the AD's to get feedback from their SC's, ask the membership for feedback and opinions. Put a moratorium on this until you can spend time and hear what we have to say. Reach out to us. We don't need Imperial Presidency's. people voted for a change from what was there. Doing business as usual is no change. It is OUR organization, talk to us. if we don't know what the topics are you are voting on, how can we comment? +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 IMHO the 3 pound rule is not that big of a deal. For me it is not the number, it's the process and seeming disdain with which we were treated. There are a good many of us who remember this from 2007 and how draft rules were just pushed down our throats with the nanny state mentality of "we know what is best for you". Times change and the organization has grown in size and scope, with different Divisions emerging as fastest growing. Basing decisions off of anecdotal evidence that you cannot provide any support for while you disregard the people who make the matches run, while at the same time you hassle us for getting members and doing more with less, is aggravating and irritating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Miles Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Thanks to everyone for your comments. Phil, thanks for posting. Having read what you have said, I would suggest that one of your first orders of business would be to re-visit this issue once you take office. Ask the AD's to get feedback from their SC's, ask the membership for feedback and opinions. Put a moratorium on this until you can spend time and hear what we have to say. Reach out to us. We don't need Imperial Presidency's. people voted for a change from what was there. Doing business as usual is no change. It is OUR organization, talk to us. if we don't know what the topics are you are voting on, how can we comment? +1!!!!!!!!!!! Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) Hmmmmm. More than 200 posts to this thread and not one comment about magnetic mag pouches being disallowed in Production and Single Stack divisions. I guess unloaded table starts with all ammo on the table aren't as popular in USPSA as they are in IPSC matches. (that has been my experience, at least) Edited December 23, 2011 by Dragoon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotwang Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Interesting. I have to wonder why USPSA did not follow IPSC and move to a 5# limit IF they were going to make the change in the first place. I am not advocating the 5# limit but they must have known some folks would be upset with a limit change in any event so why not at least align the decision with your International cousins. The one positive thing a 3# limit does is it will keep striker fired pistols in the game. With IPSC's 5# limit DA SA guns have the advantage of transitioning to a 2 - 3 pound SA pull while the striker fired guns remain at +5#s. Among the truly competitive shooters you hardly ever see a striker fired gun shooting Production in IPSC up here. Too, the Glock 34 is not a legal IPSC Production gun. Take care Bob Is this still true in the IPSC world? (IPSC Production) Check Your Trigger Pull Weight! Proposed changes to the IPSC 2012 rulebook http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=127983 (I don't know how to post a good looking link to another topic.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdm74 Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Interesting. I have to wonder why USPSA did not follow IPSC and move to a 5# limit IF they were going to make the change in the first place. I am not advocating the 5# limit but they must have known some folks would be upset with a limit change in any event so why not at least align the decision with your International cousins. The one positive thing a 3# limit does is it will keep striker fired pistols in the game. With IPSC's 5# limit DA SA guns have the advantage of transitioning to a 2 - 3 pound SA pull while the striker fired guns remain at +5#s. Among the truly competitive shooters you hardly ever see a striker fired gun shooting Production in IPSC up here. Too, the Glock 34 is not a legal IPSC Production gun. Take care Bob Is this still true in the IPSC world? (IPSC Production) Check Your Trigger Pull Weight! Proposed changes to the IPSC 2012 rulebook http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=127983 (I don't know how to post a good looking link to another topic.) Wow if that's the case give me my 15 rounds too then . I mean who only "carries" 10 in the mag. What a bunch of worms we got for christmas..lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glshooter Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Any elected official is supposed to represent the wishes of the people who voted them in. Sounds to me like a lot of members aren't too happy with this new rule. Rob, you are my area director and I don't like this rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I am really surprised that USPSA would try to institute a trigger weight rule in Production division. I prefer to shoot Limited Division because it has LESS equipment rules to worry about. Adding more rules to Production division that do nothing but alienate the existing competitors is completely insane to me. What is the point in making a rule change that MAY bring in more new competitors but WILL chase the existing competitors out of the division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Makes sense to me. My production gun has several hundred dollars in upgrades. Production is for production guns. I like the 3lb rule as compared to the bone stock Ipsc rule. It is much more fun to shoot a gun with a mild trigger job than that factory turd. Why didn't they limit the 2nd pull to something as well? I'm not familiar with a DA/SA type triggers internal mechanics but can a CZ for instance not have a heavy first pull and a super light SA pull? At first thought it would seem a DA/SA pistol would have an advantage in this division even more than it did before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtorre Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) Hmmmmm. More than 200 posts to this thread and not one comment about magnetic mag pouches being disallowed in Production and Single Stack divisions. I guess unloaded table starts with all ammo on the table aren't as popular in USPSA as they are in IPSC matches. (that has been my experience, at least) It is much simpler to switch mag pouches ... I would have to guess... Still opprobrious IMO Edited December 23, 2011 by zorro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted December 23, 2011 Author Share Posted December 23, 2011 on a more serious note, when it comes to parliamentary procedure, didn't anyone have the gumption to shout "POINT OF ORDER!" and make a motion to table the discussion until the next BOD meeting, especially when 3 guys are getting replaced? The BOD is not going to wait around until new people take office. We have elections every year. Should we shut down for the last 3 months and not do anything? 6 months? Second, it wouldn't have changed anything at all. The move passed 7-2. Mike is leaving, Phil is staying, just changing jobs. We'll have a new A4 director and a new A5 director. The new A5 was there, had his say, a little bit, and would have voted the same way the leaving A5 director did. The only difference would have been the new A4 guy, one vote, even if he would have voted against it wouldn't have mattered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Hello everyone, of you may know, I shot an M&P9 Pro for nearly 3 years that was totally stock (besides grip tape and sights). I think my vote was motivated by my rationale that if I could remain competitive with a 6-7lb trigger, most could. Plus new shooters would not be intimidated by the extra amount of trigger work needed to be “competitive.” In short, I voted based on my personal experience and viewpoints. . Thanks for the explanation and reasoning. Although I would say rules born out of extraordinary personal experience rarely are beneficial to those that are just ordinary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted December 23, 2011 Author Share Posted December 23, 2011 Trigger pull gauges (Lyman digital) are NOT expensive....I think I purchased mine for about 40-50 bucks a couple years ago. Easy to operate and gives a digital readout of the pull so theres no arguing over the weight being used is actually over 3 pounds etc... ... I shoot production (when I can get out to shoot) with my old issued Grock with the NY trigger in it and I do ok. IMHO the 3 pound rule is not that big of a deal. Strain pull guages are notoriusly unreliable. If you want to hang a national championship on a device that will give different reading every time you pull it, go for it. It matters a great deal how fast you pull, where it's at on the trigger and I'm sure a couple other things I'm leaving out. The only consistent choice, and the one that is used in other sports with trigger pull guages similar to this is something similar to the NRA weights. But the set is $120 ish from Brownells. OK, you shoot Production with a 10 pound trigger so this doesn't affect you and you're ok with it. To be honest, I shoot a Glock with a trigger that's at least 3.5 if not 4. It won't change anything I do with my gun. But we don't make rules for one person. It's supposed to be for the good of the sport in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted December 23, 2011 Author Share Posted December 23, 2011 Interesting. I have to wonder why USPSA did not follow IPSC and move to a 5# limit IF they were going to make the change in the first place. I am not advocating the 5# limit but they must have known some folks would be upset with a limit change in any event so why not at least align the decision with your International cousins. The one positive thing a 3# limit does is it will keep striker fired pistols in the game. With IPSC's 5# limit DA SA guns have the advantage of transitioning to a 2 - 3 pound SA pull while the striker fired guns remain at +5#s. Among the truly competitive shooters you hardly ever see a striker fired gun shooting Production in IPSC up here. Too, the Glock 34 is not a legal IPSC Production gun. Take care Bob Is this still true in the IPSC world? (IPSC Production) Check Your Trigger Pull Weight! Proposed changes to the IPSC 2012 rulebook http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=127983 (I don't know how to post a good looking link to another topic.) The SA trigger pull did not pass in IPSC. It was just a proposal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKSNIPER Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Vulc....you're right...it would have been nice to have had more of a discussion prior to the BOD voting for or against this proposed rule change. Kyle...thank you for posting about the meeting and how it came about...all the directors who have posted deserve our thanks for at least taking the time to explain their decisions and how they arrived at them which they are NOT required to do here on this forum. People resent the BOD making decisions but in reality thats what their "job" as area directors is...sure maybe there are people here who feel that their particular position was not represented properly or at all....thats why we have voting every year on who those people who make those decisions will be. Most of the people here have been shooting USPSA longer than I have and have gone to a lot more matches than I have but heres a thing to think about..... I CAN say with certainty that there are people out there who stay away from USPSA competitions and their reasoning is that they think (whether its right or not its their perception) they can't do well because they have a "out of the box" pistol and can't be competitive with the USPSA crowd. I have tried to educate people I know and get them to get into their first match and see what its about and how much fun it is but its hard to get them over that first hurdle. Will a rule change, in a sport they don't know much if anything about, cause these people to suddenly come to the matches in droves ? I would think.....no. But thats the people's perception who shoot but don't compete because "you have to have a tricked out gun to be competitive in those matches" IMHO instead of spending their time changing the rules maybe the BOD should concentrate on getting more education about the USPSA sport to people that would then become competitive shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 on a more serious note, when it comes to parliamentary procedure, didn't anyone have the gumption to shout "POINT OF ORDER!" and make a motion to table the discussion until the next BOD meeting, especially when 3 guys are getting replaced? The BOD is not going to wait around until new people take office. We have elections every year. Should we shut down for the last 3 months and not do anything? 6 months? Second, it wouldn't have changed anything at all. The move passed 7-2. Mike is leaving, Phil is staying, just changing jobs. We'll have a new A4 director and a new A5 director. The new A5 was there, had his say, a little bit, and would have voted the same way the leaving A5 director did. The only difference would have been the new A4 guy, one vote, even if he would have voted against it wouldn't have mattered. Yeah, I figured that out on my own already. Thanks! My point being that at least we (and by "we" I mean us rank and file members) could have had some time between December and whenever the next BOD is to interject our opinions directly to both the CURRENT and NEW AD's prior to them actually voting on it. At least you and a few other AD's have had the ...ahem...spine to come on here and tell us why you voted the way you did. I have to give you all credit for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I even managed to get a shut the f up out of the Pres. As one of your constituents.... that's awesome! Thanks for fighting the good fight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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