Stowing of "Barney Mag" in SSTK

[Rotorwrench]

The question came up the other day at a club match about stowing of a Barney Mag after making ready. About 90% of the shooters that I know stow their Barney mag in their front pocket, Including myself. SSTK rules state that all holsters and equipment must be IAW App E3 (Behind the hipbone). The way I read into this is equipment (Mag pouches with loaded mags) and not partial or empty mags. Are there actually RO's out there anal enough to call someone for stowing a partial mag in their front pocket?

Mike

[sperman]

See:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=123213

and

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=126500

and

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=125249

A couple of those aren't 100% on topic, but they all cover restrictions on reloading devices in SS/Production. You will find the answer to your question, and much more, if you read those three threads.

Welcome to the forums.

[NoSteel]

I'm guessing that you just don't want to be in a position to pull it and use it, then you would have a problem..

[JakeMartens]

the rule is no mags in the front pocket after the start signal in production and single stack.

I shoot single stack, I have two mags in my back left pocket, one to barney with, and then load the other and barney goes back into back pocket.

[steel1212]

The question came up the other day at a club match about stowing of a Barney Mag after making ready. About 90% of the shooters that I know stow their Barney mag in their front pocket, Including myself. SSTK rules state that all holsters and equipment must be IAW App E3 (Behind the hipbone). The way I read into this is equipment (Mag pouches with loaded mags) and not partial or empty mags. Are there actually RO's out there anal enough to call someone for stowing a partial mag in their front pocket?

Mike

I don't see a RO being anal about it I see it as a RO following the rule book. It doesn't take much to put your barney mag in your back pocket. I shoot a .40 so I just load 9 in my first mag.

Edited April 12, 2011 by steel1212

[Sarge]

Oh No! Not again.

[coldchar]

I'm guessing that you just don't want to be in a position to pull it and use it, then you would have a problem..

Can't read intent. Level 1 new shooter probably ask him if he really wanted to do that and when he asks why not, explain the rule.

Level 1 experienced shooter Probably not as likely to ask him if he really wanted to do that

Anything else, welcome to open.

Jim G

[bbbean]

Are there actually RO's out there anal enough to call someone for stowing a partial mag in their front pocket?

Think of it like holstering your gun in your car in the parking lot. There are lots of clubs that consider the parking lot and your vehicle to be a de facto safe area. You could probably do it for years and never have a problem. But when there's a nice safe area right over there, why not take the extra 30 seconds and comply with the letter of the law?

Until I read the recent threads, I always kept my barney mag in my front pocket. I could continue to do so and would likely never encounter a problem. But when I have a perfectly good back pocket that keeps me legal (and extra mag pouches are available for under $20) why not simply comply with the rules?

[SoonerPast]

Sounds like a change in my typical loading is in store. My left front pocket will now hold loose rounds to "top-off" the first magazine.

[Singlestack]

Sounds like a change in my typical loading is in store. My left front pocket will now hold loose rounds to "top-off" the first magazine.

Might want to rethink that Mike...

Unless you like shooting Open.

[GrumpyOne]

Sounds like a change in my typical loading is in store. My left front pocket will now hold loose rounds to "top-off" the first magazine.

Read this entire (recent) thread...

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=126500&view=findpost&p=1431358&hl=understanding&fromsearch=1

[spanky]

The question came up the other day at a club match about stowing of a Barney Mag after making ready. About 90% of the shooters that I know stow their Barney mag in their front pocket, Including myself. SSTK rules state that all holsters and equipment must be IAW App E3 (Behind the hipbone). The way I read into this is equipment (Mag pouches with loaded mags) and not partial or empty mags. Are there actually RO's out there anal enough to call someone for stowing a partial mag in their front pocket?

Mike

A mag is a mag and ammo is ammo. Neither of which can be in front of your hip bone.

[jar]

I changed my loading procedure at this week's match. I now come to the line with my barney mag in the front pocket, but behind the hip-bone and my start mag in the back pocket. I chamber a round with the barney mag, then swap mags at the back pocket.

[SoonerPast]

Looks like lighter loads in my front pockets from now on.

[JerryShoots]

Believe it or not this exact situation was looked at by Amidon in the last Front Sight. He states in his Q&A section of the magazine that stowing in a front pocket while claiming a division that requires all gear behind the hipbone will bump you to Open. He also states in the item that stowing them in the back pocket or any pocket behind the hip bone is just fine.

Will edit with issue # and page number as soon as I find the edition that was in...

[adively]

Believe it or not this exact situation was looked at by Amidon in the last Front Sight. He states in his Q&A section of the magazine that stowing in a front pocket while claiming a division that requires all gear behind the hipbone will bump you to Open. He also states in the item that stowing them in the back pocket or any pocket behind the hip bone is just fine.

Will edit with issue # and page number as soon as I find the edition that was in...

Being discussed in the second link that sperman posted.

March/April 2011 Front Sight page 68.

Page 68:

No Mags In The Front Pockets? Really?

Is it legal for someone shooting in Single Stack Division to carry spare magazines in the front pocket of their pants? Does carrying magazines that way require that they be moved to Open? Please cite the applicable USPSA rules.

Answer

Unfortunately, yes it does.

Appendix D1 item 12 states yes to restrictions on position of equipment, appendix E3 shoes that restriction and 6.2.5.1 states if they do not satisfy the division entered at any time, they are moved to Open.

There is nothing wrong with having magazines in the back pockets or another pocket behind the hip bone.

[Rotorwrench]

Thanks all for clarifying and the other links. Pretty much cleared it up for me. The hard part is breaking old habits. I guess I'll need to wear a shock collar at Double Tap.

[wgnoyes]

Or just drop the barney-mag on the ground and be done with it.

[Steven Cline]

The rule reads:

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

We can not ignore this combinations of words, "During the course of fire, after the start signal..."

If you step up to the start position and hear, "Make ready" the CoF has begun, but it is before the start signal. You pull a barney mag from your front pocket or you have it in your hand and do your barney mag thing. This has not violated 5.2.4 because it is still before the start signal.

What you do with that mag could get you bumped to open. If you store it in your rear pocket or otherwise comply with Appendex D, Item 12 (and potentially Appendix E3) you should not be bumped to open.

Once that start signal happens, you have to be compliant with 5.2.4 "unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

It's the timing of the start signal. Before the start signal it is not a violation of 5.2.4. After the start signal, it is a violation of 5.2.4.

Edited April 25, 2011 by Steven Cline

[Steven Cline]

Believe it or not this exact situation was looked at by Amidon in the last Front Sight. He states in his Q&A section of the magazine that stowing in a front pocket while claiming a division that requires all gear behind the hipbone will bump you to Open. He also states in the item that stowing them in the back pocket or any pocket behind the hip bone is just fine.

Will edit with issue # and page number as soon as I find the edition that was in...

Being discussed in the second link that sperman posted.

March/April 2011 Front Sight page 68.

Page 68:

No Mags In The Front Pockets? Really?

Is it legal for someone shooting in Single Stack Division to carry spare magazines in the front pocket of their pants? Does carrying magazines that way require that they be moved to Open? Please cite the applicable USPSA rules.

Answer

Unfortunately, yes it does.

Appendix D1 item 12 states yes to restrictions on position of equipment, appendix E3 shoes that restriction and 6.2.5.1 states if they do not satisfy the division entered at any time, they are moved to Open.

There is nothing wrong with having magazines in the back pockets or another pocket behind the hip bone.

With all respect...

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

Also consider that 6.2.5.1 is under the section of the rule book addressing Match Divisions, it starts with 6.2 Match Divisions, then goes to 6.2.5 "Where a Division is unavailable or deleted, or where a competitor fails to declare a specific Division prior to the commencement of a match,the competitor will be placed in the Division which, in the opinion of the Range Master, most closely identifies with the competitor's equipment. If, in the opinion of the Range Master, no suitable Division is available, the competitor will shoot the match for no score."

Note that 6.2.5.1 begins with a, "However," That's because it is clarifing a part of 6.2.5 above. 6.2.5.1 allows a for a bump to open for the "cheater" aheam, the person who fails to satisfy a Division requirement during a CoF.

Yes, I know the CoF starts with the "make ready" command...

But, 5.2.4 gives a clear exception addressing spare ammunition (the barney mag). That specific ammunition allows for the competitor to have the ammo elsewhere prior to the start signal.

It recognizes that the elsewhere could be proscribed by WSB or doesn't matter before the start signal

Our sport does not benefit in bumping a Single Stack shooter to Open because he is told, "Make ready" and pulls an mag with 1 rnd from his front pocket... but at the start signal everything is where it is supposed to be.

Edited April 25, 2011 by Steven Cline

[JFlowers]

Looks like combining Steve Cline and Bill Noyes answers gives you the best way to stay clear of a thoughtless moment costing your dearly. At the Make Ready, insert the Barney mag with its 1 bullet. Cycle the gun manually. Eject the Barney mag. Visually inspect it to make sure its empty (saves you from the dreaded BEEP ... CLICK). Then drop it. Nice soft spot out of your way, but somewhere easy to retrieve. Now you won't put it in your front pocket and cause yourself grief.

[want2race]

The rule reads:

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

We can not ignore this combinations of words, "During the course of fire, after the start signal..."

If all mags have to come from retention devices or pockets IAW Appendix D1 item 12 during the course of fire, and the course of fire is deemed to start at "Make Ready" (re: Amidons Front Sight response of "at all times"), then walking up to the line with a magazine in hand and loading it after "Make Ready" puts you in Open. Does it not?

[bbbean]

Looks like combining Steve Cline and Bill Noyes answers gives you the best way to stay clear of a thoughtless moment costing your dearly. At the Make Ready, insert the Barney mag with its 1 bullet. Cycle the gun manually. Eject the Barney mag. Visually inspect it to make sure its empty (saves you from the dreaded BEEP ... CLICK). Then drop it. Nice soft spot out of your way, but somewhere easy to retrieve. Now you won't put it in your front pocket and cause yourself grief.

Better yet - avoid even the hint of an arbitration or bump to Open and just stow the Barney mag in the back pocket. Alternately, add another mag pouch. Even consider sewing special mag pockets on your pants or wearing carpenter pants that have pockets on the leg behind the hipbone.

I don't see that there's any great benefit to keeping a Barney mag in the front pocket that is worth the risk or hassle.

Consider - you don't load your ammo to 165.001, do you?

Edited April 25, 2011 by bbbean

[spanky]

Looks like combining Steve Cline and Bill Noyes answers gives you the best way to stay clear of a thoughtless moment costing your dearly. At the Make Ready, insert the Barney mag with its 1 bullet. Cycle the gun manually. Eject the Barney mag. Visually inspect it to make sure its empty (saves you from the dreaded BEEP ... CLICK). Then drop it. Nice soft spot out of your way, but somewhere easy to retrieve. Now you won't put it in your front pocket and cause yourself grief.

Better yet - avoid even the hint of an arbitration or bump to Open and just stow the Barney mag in the back pocket. Alternately, add another mag pouch. Even consider sewing special mag pockets on your pants or wearing carpenter pants that have pockets on the leg behind the hipbone.

I don't see that there's any great benefit to keeping a Barney mag in the front pocket that is worth the risk or hassle.

Consider - you don't load your ammo to 165.001, do you?

Yep, exactly why I added a 6th pouch to my production rig. $30 doesn't seem so bad when you consider the other possibilities.

[JAFO]

The rule reads:

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

We can not ignore this combinations of words, "During the course of fire, after the start signal..."

If all mags have to come from retention devices or pockets IAW Appendix D1 item 12 during the course of fire, and the course of fire is deemed to start at "Make Ready" (re: Amidons Front Sight response of "at all times"), then walking up to the line with a magazine in hand and loading it after "Make Ready" puts you in Open. Does it not?

Steve's point there was that there is an exception for the time between "Make Ready" and the start signal. Think of the rule in context. What possible reason is there for prohibiting you from having a magazine in your hand, front pocket, tucked behind your left ear, etc, before the start signal? Answer, none. Putting a partially full barney mag back into a location in violation of D1.12 and leving it there after the start signal is a different story. The mag is available to you (whether you use it or not) in an illegal position during your run. This a competition-related rule to keep SS/Prod playing fair during scoring runs.