rifle supporting device?

[AFH]

"So where should that line get drawn????" Good question -- especially with the devices shown. The marketing of various devices might be as a "barricade support", but they are not helping to erect, stabilize or secure the barricade. Their action is directly upon the rifle. It appears that these two 'barricade supports' are not practical in a non-competition environment. Can you imagine the guy beside you turning and accidentally slapping you with one of those? Or having to carry a slung rifle with one attached for several hours?

Just personal opinion, but I don't see these pointy things being allowed in any division besides Open where anything that is safe should be allowed. I don't know if I can justify such a position except by looking at the practicality of the Hedgehog and Porcupine as mentioned above, and some consideration for the sharp points of the things. Now the K9's, I don't know, and should they be looked at any differently? I saw them in use at FB3G, and saw no great advantage, but all shooters were prone anyway.

Bipods in all classes may be something to consider, but would not be too popular with those who seek more separation between Open and Tactical divisions.

When having to come up with rules, there should be reasonable justifications for one's ideas, and delineations should be as clear as possible. I do not look forward to having to come up with an answer to this question.

Andy

[Jesse Tischauser]

Bipods in all classes may be something to consider, but would not be too popular with those who seek more separation between Open and Tactical divisions.

I'm kinda new to this game. Was the bipod ever allowed in Tactical division?

I am just curious is there is any data on how much it helps or how many shoots used it when they were allowed.

To me the controversy comes down to how helpful is the dvice. If it helps tac gusy enough to beat open guys then its probably an open device.

Edited December 17, 2010 by jtischauser

[assaulter]

I was patiently waiting for the next batch of the popular and sold out K9's when I found this Hedgehog badboy on Facebook of all places. This thing makes the K9 like like its bitch (female dog reference to K9, get it moderators, I wasn't cussin', LOL!)

And its got a big brother named the Porcupine. This thing is god for large bore guns liek the .308, .338, .50 BMG. I wouldn't hesitate to put one on a SAW, M60 or even a M2!

That's some medieval looking stuff there. Is that a rifle or a battle axe?

Edited December 17, 2010 by assaulter

[MarkCO]

I'm kinda new to this game. Was the bipod ever allowed in Tactical division?

I am just curious is there is any data on how much it helps or how many shoots used it when they were allowed.

To me the controversy comes down to how helpful is the dvice. If it helps tac gusy enough to beat open guys then its probably an open device.

I shot my first 3 gun match at Raton, kind of the in-between SOF and RM3G match. Irons, ACOG, Trijicon were about the only sights, there was no open, bi-pods were allowed. No colored basepads on the magazines, 22" max shotgun barrel length. You would not have liked it much Jesse...

At RM3G this year, the top Tac-Scope guy, straight up, beat the top Open guy by 10%, so that is not really a fair comparison. I'm not going to vote for cutting an arm off Tac-Scope guys so Open can win straight up.

Edited December 17, 2010 by MarkCO

[Jesse Tischauser]

I shot my first 3 gun match at Raton, kind of the in-between SOF and RM3G match. Irons, ACOG, Trijicon were about the only sights, there was no open, bi-pods were allowed. No colored basepads on the magazines, 22" max shotgun barrel length. You would not have liked it much Jesse...

I think it would have been great! I don't have to ahve those pink base pads. They just match my breast cancer awareness M&P9 Pro.

At RM3G this year, the top Tac-Scope guy, straight up, beat the top Open guy by 10%, so that is not really a fair comparison. I'm not going to vote for cutting an arm off Tac-Scope guys so Open can win straight up.

I guess I should have stated an average tac shooter not Daniel Horner. I really need to get out this winter and time myself and a buddy to see how much we are with or without my bipod.

[MarkCO]

I guess I should have stated an average tac shooter not Daniel Horner. I really need to get out this winter and time myself and a buddy to see how much we are with or without my bipod.

It won't be as much as you think. I shot every stage at RM3G last year, and then during the match was able to see a lot of people shoot, in a lot of divisions and skill levels. IMHO, there was one stage where I would have wanted a bi-pod. The reason was to get over some ground clutter on one stage. OTOH, I saw several Open shooter fire form a hole through the ground clutter on one stage because they could not get high enough with the bi-pod. I actually think the bi-pod slows some of the open shooters down and in most stages, it is a wash at best.

Edited December 17, 2010 by MarkCO

[Jesse Tischauser]

I guess I should have stated an average tac shooter not Daniel Horner. I really need to get out this winter and time myself and a buddy to see how much we are with or without my bipod.

It won't be as much as you think. I shot every stage at RM3G last year, and then during the match was able to see a lot of people shoot, in a lot of divisions and skill levels. IMHO, there was one stage where I would have wanted a bi-pod. The reason was to get over some ground clutter on one stage. OTOH, I saw several Open shooter fire form a hole through the ground clutter on one stage because they could not get high enough with the bi-pod. I actually think the bi-pod slows some of the open shooters down and in most stages, it is a wash at best.

That means its stage dependent not bipod dependent. You could design a really tough stage for bipod users and allow everyone to have one and let them screw themselves so to speak.

[00bullitt]

My thoughts are pretty simple. I don't much care if they are allowed or not. If they are I will use them. If not, the playing field is equal as far as allowed gear goes. I do think the K9's offer an advantage in several situations. But the same thing can be accomplished without them....albeit a bit slower in those situations where the K9's excel. The K9's started life as a hand stop that was flipped around backwards to engage props in a course of fire. Then aggressive teeth were added to enhance their purpose. My problem with not allowing them is that it dampens progressive innovation in the sport. I don't think OPEN should be the only division to exploit such.

With all that said, I don't care what ruling is made. It makes no difference to me.

[latewatch]

I was patiently waiting for the next batch of the popular and sold out K9's when I found this Hedgehog badboy on Facebook of all places. This thing makes the K9 like like its bitch (female dog reference to K9, get it moderators, I wasn't cussin', LOL!)

And its got a big brother named the Porcupine. This thing is god for large bore guns liek the .308, .338, .50 BMG. I wouldn't hesitate to put one on a SAW, M60 or even a M2!

That's some medieval looking stuff there. Is that a rifle or a battle axe?

I think anyone that wants to run something like this on their rifle should be allowed as long as it has to stay on the whole match and they have to supply their own bandaids and gauze!!!

[Modoc]

I am NOT putting my rifle next to that in the rack or pre-stage table. I know tha I would end up bleeding from proximity.

On the other hand, I will play the game which ever way the rules fall.

Edited December 17, 2010 by Modoc

[MarkCO]

I am NOT putting my rifle next to that in the rack or pre-stage table

I'm thinking if I am ROing, I'll need chainmail, just in case...

[dcloudy777]

I'm just thinking about all of the narrow doorways, ports, tunnels, trenches and the like that I've seen at matches like BR3G and FB3G the past few years. That hedgehog thing looks like a 180-DQ (or a trip to the emergency room) just waiting to happen.

DanO

[mpeltier]

In all seriousness, I really do not think the K-9 is a game changer, and several shooters (at our club) use them or something just like it. I have not noticed any real advantage over someone who knows how to shoot using support naturally off a wall or barricade. Now those porkypine looking things have me thinking in a differant light. Not from a competitors standpoint but a range master standpoint. What kind of damage are those things going to cause to my props? As someone who has a lot of experiance woodworking i can say for sure they would be very distructive, and if many shooters were using them, we would be rebuilding props pretty often. I would simply not allow them for the sake of preventing unneccessary property damage or personal injury. If someone shows up with one at our range, it better be with a flatbed full of lumber (and a case of band aids) to donate or I will ask them nicely to remove it or they wont shoot.

[bigbrowndog]

Mark, you know Mick is going to bring one to your house for dry fire practice, and practice getting into position behind your cabinets and tables!!!!!

trapr

Edited December 18, 2010 by bigbrowndog

[mike cyrwus]

I think its 90% marketing myself. Just another thing to cut out and sell from the scrap aluminum.

Add a bottle opener on the back side and it will sell out everywhere.

[mpeltier]

Mark, you know Mick is going to bring one to your house for dry fire practice, and practice getting into position behind your cabinets and tables!!!!!

trapr

Thanks for the heads up Trapr, I guess I will have to distract him with some home cooked southern BBQ, in fact that device might be usefull for making pulled pork.

[whiskey1]

I like the K-9, but...I would like it better with a built in bottle opener! Mike, you are a marketing genius.

[BrianATL]

Damn Joe I thought you were resourceful I have openened a silver bullet or two with my K-9's

[whiskey1]

My K9's haven't arrived yet. They are stranded in Macon. I have a set coming for the heavy rifle though and the little hook on the back shows promise as a bottle opener. Time will tell. I'll try to have a "range report" on the new K9/bottle openers shortly after X-mas.

[BrianATL]

Mine have the lttle hooks on the back. I'll post a video if you need help.

[Bryan 45]

Looks like you guys can leave your hedge hogs, porcupines, sea urchines, prickly pears, and sharp pointy bastards at home for the BRM3G. http://brm3g.com/index_files/Page571.htm Rule 5.6

[DocMedic]

5.6.1 Supporting devices that risk excess damage to props or pose a risk to shooters are prohibited. (i.e. the Hedgehog and like products are not allowed)

3gun's "serious business" Ordering 2

Edit: wow, sadly their backordered?

Edited March 15, 2011 by DocMedic

[gerritm]

Going back to my original question about using 2 mags cinched together it seems that is allowed in most matches. Is there anything in the rules that say you can't build up the bottom of the mag or mags so when you go prone the scope aligns better with your natural position of your eye? I know the Arredondo mag bases raise the mag up about an inch. Could you make your own "shim" to bring it up a little more.I noticed at the last match a lot of us have to bend our heads way down to line up with the scope.

[Dan Sierpina]

Going back to my original question about using 2 mags cinched together it seems that is allowed in most matches. Is there anything in the rules that say you can't build up the bottom of the mag or mags so when you go prone the scope aligns better with your natural position of your eye? I know the Arredondo mag bases raise the mag up about an inch. Could you make your own "shim" to bring it up a little more.I noticed at the last match a lot of us have to bend our heads way down to line up with the scope.

The smart move is to inquire with the match director of any match you find a question with. They are the one that makes the decision, not a bunch of shooters on the forum.