whiskey1

Having shot a little bit of IPSC Shotgun I'd have to say that the above statement about stages being "hampered" by IPSC rules is not exactly how I would characterize it. Some shooters are better at speed shoots, some at slug stages, some at long field courses and some at the medium 9-22 rounds mentioned by Nuts. Who is the best shooter? The IPSC ratio of short/medium/long stages is an attempt to balance stage design so that roughly the same number of points are available on each type of stage. I really liked the zones divided by ammo type.

Birdman, That is the great thing about outlaw MG or Shotgun matches- if you run a match you can put them where YOU think they should be! In all seriousness lots of people were terrified that the box fed shotgun would be the end of the tube gun for sure and pushed to put them only in open. Several very knowledgable shotgunners were not so sure about that and have let them shoot where ever they fit based on other established rules (comps, optics, etc.). Box fed guns have always been allowed in standard division at HPSC for instance and seems that it has not really mattered. I don't understand why shotguns with detachable magazines should have to shoot only in open since no one wants to see handguns or rifles with detachable magazines relegated to open division only. What is the difference? Joe Edited for spelling.

Robbie Wheaton has been at this game for a long time and my guess is his work on the Benelli will be very solid. I have handled a limited pistol he built for a certain 16 year old ladies national champ and was very impressed. I also recall that it has run well for her in every match that I have seen her use it. As far as not having any available until after January 1, I'll bet that will be the case with most custom built handguns or shotguns this time of year. Something about inventories and taxes, etc., etc.

I agree Jeff, it is shaping up to be quite a crew. I do know Mr. P.E. Kelley will be in, and that at least will add a bit of class.

This will be a great time. If you are on the fence I can tell you that this will be a very good match at an awesome facility with very good people. I went to the European Open last year at this same venue and had a blast despite a rather dubious travelling companion!

Chuck, Did you just suggest that the USPSA Multigun Nationals might be used as a "warm up" for a big outlaw match? That kind of makes a statement, doesn't it? I know USPSA is much larger than Multigun and must take care of the pistol shooting/ROing crowd that is interested in the various handgun nationals, Bianchi, Steel Challenge, and all that other stuff. I'm sure this is the weekend that made the most sense. Please don't be offended. It just struck me kind of funny since I only look at the three gun calendar plus SHOT and NRA Shows. April has every weekend full while March, May, September, and October each only have one event at this point.

And the same weekend as the NRA Annual meeting...

Denise, I promised you I would come to new Mexico in 2012 now I have to put my money where my mouth is...See you there.

Bill, I will go at this as best I can. USPSA is increadibly handgun and USA centric in respect to the organizational focus, rules, and divisions and that probably provides the best service to the vast majority of members. A small number of shooters though are more focused on "outlaw" multigun, shotgun, or rifle and shoot USPSA only occasionally or locally. IPSC shotgun rules and stage designs make more sense for that group of shooters than do USPSA rules at this point. The UKPSA which is wholly shotgun does have a classification system for shotgun but I do not know how it works. Generally, IPSC does not do classifications for shotgun that I am aware of. The benefit of club affiliation with USPSA or IPSC for a local monthly match might be negligable enough as to make affiliation undesirable to the club. Insurance is the only possible benefit that I can think of for a shotgun only club, though there might be others that I am unaware of. I think the solution may be an independent club that uses IPSC shotgun rules though an IPSC affiliation would lend a certain legitimacy to match results. As for why don't we just do a USPSA match with shotguns- I am sure most on this board are aware that several of us who shoot the various independent multigun matches have become very interested in the international shotgun matches as a result of our participation in the Pan-American SG Match last year and three of us just returned from Hungary where we shot the 2nd Central European Open SG Match. The first ever World SG Championships are going to be held in Hungary next year and from what we witnessed last week the US may not be well positioned to compete on the world stage against especially the Russians, Serbs, Germans, Italians, Finns, and possibly others we did not see shoot. IPSC shotgun is much more equipment specific and rules are substantively different when compared to pistol for example. The Europeans bring their best shotgunners, use shotgun specific equipment, and for the most part the same rule book that they use at home when competing internationally. We don't necessarily do any of that. An example is the 2 1/2 inch shotgun ammo that many of them use which will let them fit maybe 12 rounds into a standard manual shotgun after the buzzer. USPSA with the "no more than eight (10 in open) in the magazine ever" has prevented US shooters from developing ammo, gear, and techniques that might be be very useful when shooting internationally. The other reason to do it is IPSC style shotgun is really, really fun!

@ Bryan, The pretty girls on NSTs page were mostly university students hired to reset as summer work for pocket money. The ones they hired were predominantly pretty girls. Pretty girls are very common in Hungary, though. I was impressed with how hard they worked and their interest in the shooting. Of course, a couple of those pictures are ROs...maybe US match directors should take note... Jansen and Rob have both been converted to the five finger shoes but I think it was Katie Harris that did it more than Jeff. I noticed some stares and giggles but most were too polite to ask about his deformity... The Hungarian pizza was good enough that he didn't offer me any. All joking aside I understand why Jeff, Kurt, and Trapr have been going over there to shoot for so many years. I highly recommend you do it at least once. @ Jesse, for many of those guys shotgun is the only game they play though several shoot pistol as well. They have some specialized equipment that I think helps and works really well on a one gun stage but the chest rigs, etc. might cause more problems than solutions in multigun due to interference with other gear, hard to go prone. etc. Also, we shot with the German Standard manual guys and they brought about five different loads with them for various situations. Buckshot is the only place where we really have any advantage ammunition wise, I think. Many were using 2 1/2 loads that allowed them to add a couple extra shells to the gun immediately after the buzzer which we could not do and that may have been worth a couple seconds over the course of the match. But you hit the nail on the head...Those boys can shoot very well. @ Adrie, I hope you shot well in Czech but you better practice up for the world match. It will be the tie breaker between you and I...I look forward to shooting with you then.

The Noveske Shooting Team Facebook page has some photos. I think scores can be found by searching Central European Shotgun Open 2011.

After a few days reflection I thought I would take the opportunity to comment on the experiences that Cold and I had travelling to/from and participating in the recent Central European Shotgun Championship in Debrecen, Hungary. If you are reading this thread you are probably aware that the first shotgun World Shoot will be held at the same location probably in September 2012. First travel: We flew Lufthansa from Atlanta, GA via Frankfurt, Germany to Budapest then took a transport that we had prebooked to Debrecen where we met with Hungarian RO Janos Dobo who had graciously volunteered to guide us around the city. The flights were uneventful save some confusion at the airline ticket counter in Atlanta that resulted in more confusion about our boarding passes from Frankfort to Budapest. The result was none of my luggage or gun left Germany with me and we had to wait at the Budapest airport an extra four or five hours to collect them before our car trip to Debrecen. The transport company then tried to quadruple the price from $200 (30,900 forint). We ended up paying half what they requested which was still double the e-mailed price. That was the only instance of bad business we saw the entire time we were in the country. Everything else (notably food, drink, and lodging) were very reasonably priced and the people at these establishments a genuine pleasure. We required only US Customs registration forms, passports, and match invitations to travel with our guns and 11 pounds of ammunition (about 100 rounds of slugs and buckshot). Upon entry into Hungary we were issued a permit for our guns by Hungarian Customs for a fee of 3000 florint (about $24) and had to return that permit to leave Hungary with our shotguns. Curiosly the Hungarians did not stamp our passports and when I asked the Customs Official told me they "don't do that here". We both shot very "hot and cold" on the first day of the match and it may have been related to a trip that took 25 hours start to finish and not enough time to recover. I plan on getting to the world shoot (if selected to go) at least three days prior to the first day of shooting. Ammunition: As mentioned we took our slugs and buckshot with us. We used match birdshot that we had preordered. The cost was similar to in the states. The ammunition was 32 gram (1 1/8 oz.) of number 5 shot at about 1325 fps- slightly heavier than what we normally shoot and substantially heavier than what many of the other shooters were using. Fives were the smallest shot availaable and definately took the steel down with authority- even the no-shoot steel went right down with just a few #5 shot. We both normally shoot #8 and sometimes #9 which is a bit more forgiving with no shoots. The fives required some adjustments. The ammunition was manufactured by Fiocchi and was very high quality. Many of the European shooters use 2 1/2" slugs, buck, and bird which allows them to load a little easier and gives an extra round or two capacity depending on tube length. I think there was some advantage to that in 3 or four stages. Shooting: The facility was the same as will be used at the World shoot and is an old Soviet Military firing range- really cool. They had the 20 bays required for this match and were already moving dirt to construct more bays specifically for the world shoot. Most of the bays are about 25 meters or so long and fairly narrow which means that distance between shooting positions was very limited making the ability to load fast while standing very important. Targets were also usually much closer than we normally see in the states. As a result the pattern is still very small and I missed a couple plates at very close range by not giving them the respect they deserved. Several shooters commented on our abilty to move between positions and noted that in stages requiring a lot of movement we had an atvantage unfortunately those stages were few and it appears that will also be the case at the World match. I did have one stage win and Jansen finished strong on several stages which convinced us that the American team has a chance to do well at the world match if we prepare correctly. The match was also very well organized. We shot 10 stages per day and only experienced one small backup before a kind of involved slug stage on the first day. Ammunition types were never mixed during a stage like we commonly do here in the US. Food: The food is very similar to in the States and even my picky chicken-and-pizza-eating companion remarked that he could not remember another trip anywhere that had better food. Even the range lunches were fairly elaborate and quite tasty. Hungarian beer is good and several other familiar brands are available at every retaurant. Service was good at every restaurant we attended. People: Other than one person in the Hungarian airport whom I immediate confused by telling him I was "as lost as last year's Easter Egg" and one Lufthansa official in Germany (who was trying to put JT on the plane and leave me in Germany because of the aforementioned ticketing problem in Atlanta) every single person we spoke to was friendly and helpful. The Hungarian people were very happy to have us visiting their country and were quite interested in America and we had some wonderful conversations with them. Most of the people I met spoke at least two languages and I was a bit embarassed to know only a little street Spanish (which did not help) and the Appalachain version of English which even the Brits had to ask me to repeat occasionally. It seemed that the three most helpful languages were English, German, and Hungarian. We saw some old friends from the Pan-American match (Adrie, Sylvia, Paolo, Roberto, and others) and were fortunate enough to squad with several of the German shooters. We developed friendships with them that I think will continue for a long time and promised to help them with their dream of shooting in an American Open Terrain 3-Gun match. They were not standoffish at all and freely discussed strategy, stage break down, loading techniques, and even gave us some German ammunition to bring home and test. Final thoughts: Trapr, Kurt Miller, Cramblitt and the other Americans who initially began travelling to Europe to shoot have obviously been good ambassadors for US shooters and as a result we were welcomed by everyone we spoke to at the match. The Hungarian economy is brand new since Hungary was behind the Iron Curtain until the fall of the Soviet Union and as a result goods, services, and labor are all inexpensive. The Hungarians very much want to encourage Westerners to visit their country and our dollars provide a good boost to the local economy. The entire trip was a great experience and I learned quite a bit- about shotgunning, about America's position in the global community, about international travel, and ultimately that shooters- from whatever country- are all pretty much alike. I recommed that anyone who is thinking about attending the first World Shotgun Championship next year to go ahead and do it. Edited for grammar and spelling.

Bryan, Thanks! That particular SLP was worked on by six different "guys in Georgia" and it is very smooth. It also has a C-Rums lifter (with one modification that is available straight from C-Rums now). It also has a part out of a Browning Gold Sporting Clays gun and a recoil spring from a 3 1/2 Browning. I had quite a bit of help on that particular project and have it on good rumor that FNH-USA will have their SLP Competition available later in the year...and it may have a number of features similar to mine (only more refined). The new SLP will, I'm sure, be a whole lot prettier than my gun (absence of GA redneck gun plumbing by yours truly). For instance when I wanted a shorter length of pull I simply took a hand powered miter saw to the recoil pad and chopped all the soft part off of it. It works for me but a certain lady shooter took it to Iron Man last year and I think she may still be mad at me. She said the short recoil pad felt great until she pulled the trigger! Anyway, I sent a detailed PM to Denn1911 with my recipe but it was a special project and a lot of the stuff I did is really not required. I would just start wondering what if I did this or that and this package was the result- probably the most stuff ever tried on any one SLP. I did learn a lot though.

My K9's haven't arrived yet. They are stranded in Macon. I have a set coming for the heavy rifle though and the little hook on the back shows promise as a bottle opener. Time will tell. I'll try to have a "range report" on the new K9/bottle openers shortly after X-mas.

I like the K-9, but...I would like it better with a built in bottle opener! Mike, you are a marketing genius.

I voted no b/c my actual option was not listed. Allow supporting devices (tri-, bi-, or monopods) in open and stabilizing devices (slings, k9s) in all other divisions...

I just printed the app and will have it in the mail in the morning, but I had to comment on the great taste in photos displayed on this year's home page. The PR Manager for BRM3G is obviously talented...

A few quick thoughts about the match...The stage design this year was probably the best I have seen. This match really was about the shooting yet retained all of the geewhiz/CDI factor that Benning and the AMU have become famous for. Striker rides, M-203s, 249s, smoke, trenches, were all there and fun for those who may never get a chance anywhere else to play with Uncle Sam's toys yet they were used so as to have absolutely zero affect on the outcome of the match. Absolute genius! Not one pistol dump box anywhere. More genius! Prize table was exceptional as always. The AMU and other soldiers running the match were absolute professionals. Civilian ROs the best around. Hat's off guys, good job.

I submit to you all that a "support" helps to hold something up. Think of the supports on a bridge, for instance, or a bipod. In my mind the K9's, et. al., are rifle "stabilizing" devices- just like a shooting sling they help to stabilize the rifle for a more accurate shot. They are just faster and handier than a sling if a barricade happens to be available. In reality the barricade itself might be a rifle supporting device but the K9 alone isn't. Also, just like slings they will be tried in three gun and competitors will decide if they have value or not. I personally think they do. Edited to add: The MD at Benning ruled they are not a rifle supporting device and allowed them in all divisions.

Chills, If officer price were $250 I'd own a bunch of them. That $400 is very close...

Most set ups will run well with about 12" of spring past the tube when it is cut off. The problem with getting it "just right" at about 8 or 9" is that as it looses strength due to age and use or things get slowed down with a bit of dust and heat "just right" becomes not enough and it always happens at the match not at practice.

I have a lot of experience with this as an instructor for the last fifteen years. I find that about 2 out of 10 people are cross-dominant. For handgun shooting it does not matter in the least. You simply use your most dextrous hand in front of the naturally dominant eye. For rifle you can go either way. If you want to shoot the rifle with the non-dominant eye you simply keep both eyes open until you begin the trigger squeeze then close the dominant eye, focus on the aiming point, and finish the shot. Of course, if you are willing to learn to shoot off the other shoulder it becomes a non-issue. With a bead sighted shotgun the eye behind the gun BECOMES the rear sight. I believe that if you are ever going to become a really good instinctive shotgunner you simply must shoot it in front of your dominant eye. Remember you don't want to have a weak hand. You want to have a strong hand and a really strong hand...

Classifications will not work with multi-gun, period. Multi-gun nationals demonstrate this perfectly. "I was first C,A,B..or was is B,A,C...whatever". If USPSA wants to get into the long gun classification business I think that is great, but we will need a Nationals for Shotgun Only and a Nationals for Rifle Only. Talk about growing your membership! Folks would only need to own one gun and there would be a nationals specifically for them! Just like Pistol Nationals (all three of 'em). Yipee!!! Please leave multi-gun alone. BTW, I would be the first guy to sign up for a shotgun nationals and if the opportunity existed (enough matches) might even shoot the shotty exclusive of the other two guns. As a matter of fact, I think I hit on something pretty good here. Charles, if you can get USPSA to conserve part of the member dues by having only one handgun nationals, do away with multigun nationals, then create a rifle and (separate) shotgun nationals, the organization can actually demonstrate the claim that they are interested in something other than handguns, expand thier potential membership base, and probably fill the next level 4 shotgun match held in the US. The result would actually be one less "Nationals" and would allow shooters to classify, test their skill, advance through the system, get promoted, blah, blah, blah, just like we currently do with pistols. I think there may be a reason that US shooters normally do so well at world pistol shoots but struggle on the international stage with shotgun and rifle. Not sure what that reason may be but I'm thinking about it.

M2 and M4 Benellis will only drop a shell onto the lifter when (a) the trigger is pulled or ( you manually do it by using the lever next to the trigger guard. I have no experience with the M3 but I'll bet that if you load the mag tube, and cycle the action without pulling the trigger you will find it does not feed a shell into the chamber. This feature is used to temporarily make the gun safe when hunting, etc. without completely unloading the magazine. It can also be used to change the round in the chamber to a different type without removing a shell from the magazine. Hope this helps.

You did not have an option for how I use mine...Only at BRM3G when Andy sticks a slug target at more than 125. I won a slug stage at PanAm and shot 2nd in two more and never used my flip up 10-22 sight in the whole match. My slugs hit perfectly at 50 sighting down the rib and stay in the A zone at 100 with a hold at the top edge of the bottom a zone. A head hold puts them on at 125. My 10-22 sight is zeroed for 150 just for Andy Horner. You gotta love the guy.