rifle supporting device?

[StealthyBlagga]

The point is not how an item is marketed, or even how it was intended to be used by the inventor. What defines an item is how the competitor chooses to use that item. If a competitor uses a vertical forwgrip as an impromptu monopod then he has created a rifle supporting device. Same for the barricade hooks. As for being practical kit, who knows or even who cares, it constitutes an artificial support and is not legal to use unless in open (in my worthless opinion). I also question the number of stepped slotted barricades one is likely to encounter in "the field".

What is someone monopods off a magazine are they now shooting open?

Mags are required for shooting.........using what is required for shooting as a support is simply using the tools that are required to your best benefit.

Not at the Rocky Mountain 3-Gun... monopoding off a pair of cinched mags bumps you into Open unless you take care to stagger the mags so only one baseplate is touching the ground.

[Jesse Tischauser]

I think its the coolest device to to hit the market since the vertical foregrip. I have 8 of them on my rifle. If course I don't shoot these games like you guys. I protect and serve!

Another example of misuse. 4 should be the limit.

With a little time and some accessory purchases I was able to mount up 4 scope rings and 4 K9's on a Troy Battle rail. The K9's are at 12,3,6,and 9 for rifle support and the scope rings are at 2, 4, 8, and 10 as ghost rings for CQB distance targets..... Bring on the Viking Tactics Barricade now bitches

I think it all boils down to how much of an advantage does any item provide the shooter. I think we can all agree that a bi pod is a much better supporting device than the K9 ever will be unless it grows two legs and folds. If MD's said that bi pods were allowed in Tactical division almost all of us would be sporting a Harris' tomorrow. The K9 is currently allowed in Tactical and there are only a handful of shooters trying it out to see if it helps support the rifle against barricades (which is a minuscule portion of the shooting we do in an entire match).

If you want to use the old magazines are required to shoot but a K9 isn't or a Scope ring on your hand guard isn't then in all fairness a free float hand guard isn't required to shoot and it gives a distinct advantage to the point that everyone has one. Shouldn't it be an Open division supporting device?

To those that say it is being marketed as a supporting device, who cares about the manufacturers marketing? Marketing is the manufacturers claim to try to sell more of their products. If I made a spongy pistol grip with one of those adult toy style over sized suction cups on the base and marketed it as a rifle supporting device would it be an open class item? Would anybody even care?

Seriously, where do you draw the line? Do we not want manufacturers trying to make better mouse traps for 3 gun for fear of it not being legal to the masses in TO? HellsToTheNo we don't!!!

Let the K9 off the porch fellas. Heck pretty soon TO is going to be overrun by 1-10X scopes with 200' FOV and like golf we will just have to make the COF longer and more difficult to challenge the top shooters.

Edited November 22, 2010 by jtischauser

[RiggerJJ]

The point is not how an item is marketed, or even how it was intended to be used by the inventor. What defines an item is how the competitor chooses to use that item. If a competitor uses a vertical forwgrip as an impromptu monopod then he has created a rifle supporting device. Same for the barricade hooks. As for being practical kit, who knows or even who cares, it constitutes an artificial support and is not legal to use unless in open (in my worthless opinion). I also question the number of stepped slotted barricades one is likely to encounter in "the field".

What is someone monopods off a magazine are they now shooting open?

Mags are required for shooting.........using what is required for shooting as a support is simply using the tools that are required to your best benefit.

Not at the Rocky Mountain 3-Gun... monopoding off a pair of cinched mags bumps you into Open unless you take care to stagger the mags so only one baseplate is touching the ground.

A single mag is ALL that is required for shooting, so using that as a support IS using the tools allowed, totally GoodToGo in Tac.

I think we all can agree cinched mags (2 or more) DO offer better support than a single, and the 2nd (and 3rd, and 4th...) are NOT required to make the gun go bang. So, the 2nd (and 3rd, and 4th) mags when used as support ARE open items.

The K9? time will tell...at a natural terrain match probably better left in the kit bag as I doubt there will be a place to use it, so I'm not worried if you want to carry it/them around...To me they kinda get in the way.

jj

[Stlhead]

Golf does not have a time factor, no need to stretch out the C.O.F.. The fast get faster and the rest learn to keep up or not. 3 gun is racing with guns, some matches are more like marathons, some are more like sprints. The equipment divisions just group the shooters by the gear they use. The people with the balls to put on matches get to decide what equipment is allowed and how it will be used. As it stands now different matches will have different rules, or may even use the same rules but interpret and apply them in different ways. I am happy with the way things are now and think it adds to the fun of our sport. Every match has it's own flavor, if I wanted to shoot sterile matches that offered absolute consistency from one to another there are other games to play that would fit that bill (classifier pistol matches come to mind ).

The original topic was whether the K9 was a support device and should it be allowed in divisions other than open. Many reasonable things have been posted, but ultimately little if any of what we post here will make any difference. The match directors will decide and that will be it. Honestly I could care less if they are allowed or not, I just enjoy the process of the debate. Now if the shooter was lacking one or more digits on his or her support hand then I would allow them, but the thing would have to stay on for the whole match.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Stlhead

[Bear1142]

The short answer is, "it all depends what the definition of is, is."

Joking aside, it really does depend upon what the definition of a rifle supporting device is, and the problem is that the definition is overly vague. IMO the whole "supporting device" clause was to incorporate prohibiting the use of clamped magazines (bipods were already specifically named as being prohibited, but didn't fall under the definition of a bipod) of which their prohibition is just plain stupid. Why can I monopod off one magazine but not two? Because the definition of a monopod means one? Okay, but are the two magazines not clamped together as one unit? Doesn't matter that the "unit" is comprised of separate parts, monopod's are comprised of seperate parts, but together they are considered one unit. Just like two magazines claimped together. And for those that may argue that under that definition a bipod is a single unit, true, but it has two separate, articulating legs that operate independently which is what makes it a "bi"-pod. A clamped, dual magazine does not. But I digress, coming back to the "supporting device" clause. Can the K9's be interpreted as a supporting device, absolutely, but then again, under that definintion, so can everything else. Is not your off hand a supporting device? Hell yeah, in fact we even call it "your support side or support side hand." Isn't a sling nothing more that a supporting device? It is, it's a device that helps stabilize and support the rifle in various shooting positions...including barricades, although this one is specifically permitted, but it still meets the current definition. Does it really matter what we call it or how it's marketed? No. Trying to ban or restrict things by what they are called or advertised as is a huge waste of time. There are too many loopholes that in the end will still allow some pieces of equipment to slip through the cracks. Competition drives new techniques and new equipment. The K9's are an innovative piece of gear, but it's up to the shooter to determine if they are worth the expense. Do they offer an advantage, absolutely. That's why I use them. Are they going to fundamentally shift the balance of power in the shooting world...no. I see them exactly as I see slings. They are a type of rifle supporting device, but their use is not gonna change the shooting world.

Don't waste your time trying to write rules and will never be effective in limiting the manner in which a rifle is braced. It's a futile endeavor and it doesn't need to be regulated.

The Idea of "regular gear" is to test YOUR ability with the gun in hand, not how well you can "STICK" your gun to a prop...

How well you can stabilize a rifle by sticking it a barricade is part of testing your "ability" with a rifle. The K9's are not automated, the shooter still has to have the skill to use them effectively....just like a sling.

Erik

Edited November 24, 2010 by Bear1142

[MarkCO]

Of course it is a supporting device! Should it move you to Open? Probably not. I suspect that most of the people that use them won't know if it changes POI on their rifle or not. If they don't, someone might get in their head and get them rattled enough that it would be worse for them. Then there is the hoping it is in the right place for that one port. Unless MDs start designing stages FOR the K9, I doubt it offers much utility overall when speed is a major factor in our game.

To answer your question Trapr, I guess if I were writing a set of rules, I would use something akin to the comp rules. Maybe: "Any device mounted to a handguard, receiver or buttstock for purposes of support or stabilization of any kind must not measure more than 1"(or 1 x 1 x 3) in any direction while exterior to the original traditional surface."

PRI makes a handguard with a flat bottom. Who is to stop someone from making a 3" wide by 6" tall "sling stud" that would basically be a nice stable mono-pod? Common sense says that is skirting the rules and I think most MDs would nix it.

Most people know and obey the rules, however not all. While the details are irrelevant, I've witnessed numerous occurances of non-division compliant equipment in many matches this year. For some reason much more than normal.

[Chris]

Have you felt how heavy Rob's rifle is with all that stuff bolted on to it? It must weigh 14 pounds or more! No wonder he needs these K9 things to keep it from falling off a barricade

Are we calling this a 'supporting device' cause its an external part bolted to the gun? How would this be any different from me jamming my magwell in to a table or barricade to support my rifle?

[Bear1142]

How would this be any different from me jamming my magwell in to a table or barricade to support my rifle?

Exactly!

Trapr, save yourself some heartache and stay away from Pandora's box.

Erik

[Jesse Tischauser]

How would this be any different from me jamming my magwell in to a table or barricade to support my rifle?

Exactly!

Trapr, save yourself some heartache and stay away from Pandora's box.

Erik

I think Trapr has opened her box several times and will be going back for more.

Edited November 24, 2010 by jtischauser

[RiggerJJ]

Are we calling this a 'supporting device' cause its an external part bolted to the gun? How would this be any different from me jamming my magwell in to a table or barricade to support my rifle?

I'm not advocating the K9 or condeming it, but to answer your last question, it IS different from jamming your magwell (or mag) into a prop by the simple fact that it is not a required piece of "kit" for the gun to operate. A magwell is an intigrated part of a AR15, and a mag is required for it to operate. The K9s sole purpose is for bracing. Now if they were moded to also be a sling stud...

jj

and before the nit-pickers attack me, I know a vfg, ambi safety, ambi mag release, sling stud, BUIS, etc, etc arn't required either...

Edited November 24, 2010 by RiggerJJ

[slowsure]

How would this be any different from me jamming my magwell in to a table or barricade to support my rifle?

Exactly!

Trapr, save yourself some heartache and stay away from Pandora's box.

Erik

I think Trapr has opened her box several times and will be going back for more.

I hope he uses protection. With a name like Pandora, who knows whats in there.

[Bear1142]

Where did the concept of only allowing what is necessary for a rifle to work as a basis for making rules?

JJ,

Just re-read my main post and I wanted to make sure you know that I wasn't personally calling you stupid, I simply don't agree with your interpretation and in one of my less articulate moments I don't think I conveyed the distinction as clearly as I should have.....I do apologize Sir!

Erik

[Jesse Tischauser]

jj

and before the nit-pickers attack me, I know a vfg, ambi safety, ambi mag release, sling stud, BUIS, etc, etc arn't required either...

With all do respect JJ the not required for the gun to fire thing bears no validity in my mind. There just isn't a clear line you can draw and say well that thing is not required for the gun to operate but it is kinda needed but that other thing clearly isn't needed. You see what I am saying?

30 round or 48 round mags aren't required either. So why not limit Tactical to 20 rounders only so nobody but Albert, Chris and Daniel can monopod?

The free float handguard is the biggest thing that sticks out to me. I would guess that 80+% of all AR15's that are built come without FF tubes which means they definately aren't required to shoot the AR15 so why are they allowed in Tactical and not just in Open?

Personally, I still don't undertand why bipods aren't allowed in all classes. We all have them for our rifles. We all use them every chance we get when hunting or shooting for accuracy but they aren't allowed in the most popular competitve shooting division. Why? Simply because they work well?

I know you have to draw lines somewhere but the rifle is clearly the hardest gun to draw those lines for.

The K9 is right in that grey area but it just needs a QD sling swivel hole on it.

Edited November 24, 2010 by jtischauser

[Religious Shooter]

Use the poll function and ask if the K9 should be considered Open gear.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Use the poll function and ask if the K9 should be considered Open gear.

LOL! Trapr loves the poll function.

Edited November 24, 2010 by jtischauser

[MarkCO]

Use the poll function and ask if the K9 should be considered Open gear.

With all due respect, I doubt the MDs will be much influenced by a poll. Heck, almost everyone thinks bi-pods should be allowed in all classes, but they are still only in open.

[Religious Shooter]

You THINK "almost everyone thinks bi-pods should be allowed in all classes, but they are still only in open."

I bet you if you had a poll that asked if you should allow bipods into Tactical Scope/Limited/Iron you would get a no.

If BBD doesn't put a poll up... I will.

[Religious Shooter]

And that too was also with all due respect.

[MarkCO]

And that too was also with all due respect.

But of course. I put up a poll.

[bigbrowndog]

thanks Mark, thanks a lot. because you know I was just waiting to set up a poll

trapr

[MarkCO]

thanks Mark, thanks a lot. because you know I was just waiting to set up a poll

trapr

For you, I'd take it down.

[bigbrowndog]

Oh no!!!! not now. people will think I'm..........................................well leave it up it'll be amusing

trapr

[mpeltier]

Oh no!!!! not now. people will think I'm..........................................well leave it up it'll be amusing

trapr

Geez Trapr, I already thought this thread was amusing as it was.

I might just have to vote now....

[RiggerJJ]

I think this whole thing is amusing...

Yes, you have to draw lines somewhere, otherwise there would be no equipment divisions.

Why not let 170 and beyond pistol mag lengths in? because its a line...

Why not let everyone start with as many rounds in a shotgun as they want? cause its a line...

Why not reddots on everything? because its a line...

and the list goes on and on for all firearms...

if you want to shoot open equipment, sign up for open.

if you want to follow the equipment rules, sign up for a more restrictive division.

simple, to the point.

we could always go back to the old rule; no PART of the gun may touch the ground when prone...

jj

[smokshwn]

I'm in....mags and bi pods aren't part of my gun