SMM3gun

[ChuckS]

I wonder who "Bandito, Frito" is?

[outerlimits]

Here's the stage in question, Stage 8. there were 3 banks of 3 targets, all programmed to show themselves at various intervals. distances were about 75, 178 & 300 yds. all 9 targets required 3 hits for them stay down. only one popped up at a time. the program went something like this. the first target appeared at the middle array, briefly, then a target from the short array, briefly, then one from the long array...again, very briefly. then, the 2nd target from the middle array appeared, one from the close array, then another from the far. repeated until each of the 9 had appeared to complete the initial appearance of all 9 targets. the program continued to pop up targets, in differing sequences than the original 9, at longer periods of time. plus, the program delayed popping up targets for in some cases, a long time. IAC, given the scoring was either neutralized (3 hits), not neutralized (less than 3 hits) or not hit at all, the penalties weren't substantial.

the initial sequence of appearing each target once took about 37 seconds or so. so the game plan became just shoot at the initial sequence and try to neutralize as many as you could, and at least hit the others. i got out of there in 38.12 seconds, and ate 3 un-hit targets worth 30 seconds, and 5 un-neutralized targets for another 25 seconds...ending up with a run of 93.12. gaming? not really, just taking advantage of the way the stage was scored.

video here:

Edited March 27, 2011 by outerlimits

[outerlimits]

Here's "Alamoshooter" shooting stage 10-all buckshot stage:

[GorillaTactical]

Jamie looked like you were limping there. What happened?

[Gruyere]

the initial sequence of appearing each target once took about 37 seconds or so. so the game plan became just shoot at the initial sequence and try to neutralize as many as you could, and at least hit the others. i got out of there in 38.12 seconds, and ate 3 un-hit targets worth 30 seconds, and 5 un-neutralized targets for another 25 seconds...ending up with a run of 93.12. gaming? not really, just taking advantage of the way the stage was scored.

This is your opinion. My group discussed this and the conclusion we came to is that if someone finishes a stage with ammo on them and a functional gun to shoot that ammo, that something is not right. If a good faith effort hasn't been made to complete the COF as designed...well that could be called unsportsman-like. The problem is that gaming stages creates an arms race of a kind with stage designers. Not only do they need to design stages that are safe, fun and challenging, but also ones that have all possible loopholes removed. It creates a conflict that takes away from the focus on being safe, fun and challenging and often results in more rules and enhanced penalties. Thus we all end up paying for the actions of a few.

Just my 2 cents. Probably not even worth that much.

[sbmd]

the initial sequence of appearing each target once took about 37 seconds or so. so the game plan became just shoot at the initial sequence and try to neutralize as many as you could, and at least hit the others. i got out of there in 38.12 seconds, and ate 3 un-hit targets worth 30 seconds, and 5 un-neutralized targets for another 25 seconds...ending up with a run of 93.12. gaming? not really, just taking advantage of the way the stage was scored.

This is your opinion. My group discussed this and the conclusion we came to is that if someone finishes a stage with ammo on them and a functional gun to shoot that ammo, that something is not right. If a good faith effort hasn't been made to complete the COF as designed...well that could be called unsportsman-like. The problem is that gaming stages creates an arms race of a kind with stage designers. Not only do they need to design stages that are safe, fun and challenging, but also ones that have all possible loopholes removed. It creates a conflict that takes away from the focus on being safe, fun and challenging and often results in more rules and enhanced penalties. Thus we all end up paying for the actions of a few.

Just my 2 cents. Probably not even worth that much.

I am not there to see the stage or participate but from a stage designer of 15 plus years.....I take this as a challenge to ensure this would not happen the next year. You can change the misses for that stages to 20 or 30 seconds each.

Would then stop the gamming for time.

Larry

[TMC]

Match is all done

Taran butler tac-scope

Clint Upchurch open.

Keith Garcia won the 3-gun nation shootoff

Edited March 28, 2011 by TMC

[Benelli Chick]

Taran - Tac Scope

Clint Upchurch - Open

Kelly Neal - Tac - Limited

Jeff Gross - Heavy Metal Limited

Adam Popplewell - Heavy Metal Scope

Katie Harris - top junior AND top Tac-Scope lady

Kay Miculek - top Open lady

[01 Z06]

the initial sequence of appearing each target once took about 37 seconds or so. so the game plan became just shoot at the initial sequence and try to neutralize as many as you could, and at least hit the others. i got out of there in 38.12 seconds, and ate 3 un-hit targets worth 30 seconds, and 5 un-neutralized targets for another 25 seconds...ending up with a run of 93.12. gaming? not really, just taking advantage of the way the stage was scored.

This is your opinion. My group discussed this and the conclusion we came to is that if someone finishes a stage with ammo on them and a functional gun to shoot that ammo, that something is not right. If a good faith effort hasn't been made to complete the COF as designed...well that could be called unsportsman-like. The problem is that gaming stages creates an arms race of a kind with stage designers. Not only do they need to design stages that are safe, fun and challenging, but also ones that have all possible loopholes removed. It creates a conflict that takes away from the focus on being safe, fun and challenging and often results in more rules and enhanced penalties. Thus we all end up paying for the actions of a few.

Just my 2 cents. Probably not even worth that much.

I am not there to see the stage or participate but from a stage designer of 15 plus years.....I take this as a challenge to ensure this would not happen the next year. You can change the misses for that stages to 20 or 30 seconds each.

Would then stop the gamming for time.

Larry

If you would score this match with IPSC scoring no one would game the stage that way because you would end up with no points, therefore a zero for the stage.

[Religious Shooter]

That was way better match than last year. Kudos.

Thanks for all the RO's and other match staff for putting it on. And for all the sponsors that support us.

Thanks for a great match.

PS: That buckshot on paper stage was special. Let's keep it special and only do it again after 10-20 or so years have passed.

[sbmd]

the initial sequence of appearing each target once took about 37 seconds or so. so the game plan became just shoot at the initial sequence and try to neutralize as many as you could, and at least hit the others. i got out of there in 38.12 seconds, and ate 3 un-hit targets worth 30 seconds, and 5 un-neutralized targets for another 25 seconds...ending up with a run of 93.12. gaming? not really, just taking advantage of the way the stage was scored.

This is your opinion. My group discussed this and the conclusion we came to is that if someone finishes a stage with ammo on them and a functional gun to shoot that ammo, that something is not right. If a good faith effort hasn't been made to complete the COF as designed...well that could be called unsportsman-like. The problem is that gaming stages creates an arms race of a kind with stage designers. Not only do they need to design stages that are safe, fun and challenging, but also ones that have all possible loopholes removed. It creates a conflict that takes away from the focus on being safe, fun and challenging and often results in more rules and enhanced penalties. Thus we all end up paying for the actions of a few.

Just my 2 cents. Probably not even worth that much.

I am not there to see the stage or participate but from a stage designer of 15 plus years.....I take this as a challenge to ensure this would not happen the next year. You can change the misses for that stages to 20 or 30 seconds each.

Would then stop the gamming for time.

Larry

If you would score this match with IPSC scoring no one would game the stage that way because you would end up with no points, therefore a zero for the stage.

I don't agree with IPSC scoring either....time plus is the way to go as no one needs a complicated scoring system to to determine the winner, all someone needs is an Excel spreadsheet to accomplish the scoring of time plus.

[jhgtyre]

Final scores have been posted on the match website.

-ld

[Doug H.]

Congrats to Clint Upchurch on his win in Open!

Doug

[DocMedic]

Great match! Shot with a bunch of great people on the squad and got to learn a lot, specially what I need to work on *shotgun reloading*.

You could argue that some of the stages in the match, were taken advantage of by not shooting the COF as intended, Call it gaming or lack of Integrity of some. Too each their own... A quote that I just recently heard that stuck in my head is "They put targets out there for a reason."

Possible fix is do what the Marines did for their multi-gun match and make FTN's 30+ sec penalties instead of 5 sec. and since 1 buckshot round can give you a max of 2 No shoot hits on the same paper, why not 2 procedures.

Just a newbies take on it, with this being the 2nd biggest 3gun match I've ever shot. But what do I know, I'm not a top 10 finisher.

Edited March 28, 2011 by DocMedic

[caz41]

Great match! Shot with a bunch of great people on the squad and got to learn a lot, specially what I need to work on *shotgun reloading*.

You could argue that some of the stages in the match, were taken advantage of by not shooting the COF as attended, Call it gaming or lack of Integrity of some. Too each their own... A quote that I just recently heard that stuck in my head is "They put targets out there for a reason."

Possible fix is do what the Marines did for their multi-gun match and make FTN's 30+ sec penalties instead of 5 sec. and since 1 buckshot round can give you a max of 2 No shoot hits on the same paper, why not 2 procedures.

Just a newbies take on it, with this being the 2nd biggest 3gun match I've ever shot. But what do I know, I'm not a top 10 finisher.

Other than stage 8 they were all shot straight up.

[Chris]

For those who shot the stage, please tell me at what point in the briefing did the RO mention the "intent" of the stage?

[DyNo!]

For those who shot the stage, please tell me at what point in the briefing did the RO mention the "intent" of the stage?

I'll leave it at this since I don't want to start a rule discussion thread (and I was not there) but I'd say that the intent of a stage in a shooting competition is common knowledge.

I'm pretty sure the stage designers in shooting competitions intend for the targets to be shot.

[SinistralRifleman]

I'm pretty sure the stage designers in shooting competitions intend for the targets to be shot.

Sometimes I prefer to just glare at them menacingly and use harsh language.

[ap3]

I guess using your brain to solve problems and improve your opportunity for points in the competition is now secondary to making sure we meet the "intent" of the course designer. What about this angle, it is not fair to the shooters to have long range targets that present at random

times requiring 3 hits and no way for the shooter to know if he hit them. Isn't that getting away from the "intent" of competition to test our accuracy and speed for the sake of trickery in course design

[ninemmbill]

I'm pretty sure the stage designers in shooting competitions intend for the targets to be shot.

Sometimes I prefer to just glare at them menacingly and use harsh language.

How has that been working for you?

[chendersby]

Great match! Shot with a bunch of great people on the squad and got to learn a lot, specially what I need to work on *shotgun reloading*.

You could argue that some of the stages in the match, were taken advantage of by not shooting the COF as attended, Call it gaming or lack of Integrity of some. Too each their own... A quote that I just recently heard that stuck in my head is "They put targets out there for a reason."

Possible fix is do what the Marines did for their multi-gun match and make FTN's 30+ sec penalties instead of 5 sec. and since 1 buckshot round can give you a max of 2 No shoot hits on the same paper, why not 2 procedures.

Just a newbies take on it, with this being the 2nd biggest 3gun match I've ever shot. But what do I know, I'm not a top 10 finisher.

Other than stage 8 they were all shot straight up.

Well almost all. Stage 10 had some shooters taking two complete steps out of the out of the shooting area to engage the last target. The theroy was that the 5 esc proceedural was better then the time it took to engage the target in the shooting area.

Bad call by the ro's to allow this. IMO the first shooter to do this should have been made to reshoot it and anyone else doing it should have been DQed for unsportsmanlike behavior. Under rule 1.7.4. Willful disregard of Event Official instructions. Course description says "from within the shooting area".

[kellyn]

The way to win stage 8 WAS to engage all the targets AND get at least some hits. I ended up with a 78 "second" run (38 sec run plus 40 sec in penalties: 2 neutralized targets, 6 FTNs and one missed target) which far better than a one shot run (1 second-ish run plus 135 seconds in penalties: 9 missed targets). Horner scoring deals with the issue of LR targets better as they are worth more but even with Horner scoring, I think the target presentation on Stage 8 would require the stage winner to eat FTNs.

As for the "gaming" comments, I would note that this IS a game. Stage strategy is a HUGE component of our game. I did not particularly want to shoot stage 8 the way I did but I pretty much had to. I am not going to sacrifice myself on the altar of some vague greater good to make the Gods of Stage Design happy. I'm in the match for fun but I'm also there to win.

I also feel pretty strongly that the stage should not have been thrown out. As a match director, I have had shooters destroy my wonderfully dreamed up stages. And I have to say good for them. Mystery Mtn. should do a better job of proofing stages before the main event if it wants to call itself the greatest 3 gun match in the country. What were testing or proving with that buckshot stage?

Another philosophical issue which this match drudged up is the POSSIBLE imbalance in having ALL stages worth 100 points regardless of size or length. In a a 20 secondish stage, 2 seconds of time is worth about 10 points, 5 seconds in a 40 second stage, etc etc. What this means is that any little thing which goes wrong on stages like stage 1 or 10 or 11 can have a big effect on scores despite the relatively low number of targets presented and shots fired. I know Ft. Benning went out of its way to try to balance this issue out but not so with SMM3G. The counter argument is that with scenario based stages, this more accurately reflects real life. If stage 1 were real life, a malfunction may blow the operation, get yourself and hostages killed etc etc. In the match, it meant that you lost about 30-50 match points. Food for thought.

Thanks to the match staff and sponsors for all their hard work and effort, once again a fun match with an excellent prize table. Stage 1 was clever. Stage 2 was about the best stage that I ever seen in which the shooter really had to think about which weapon to pick: rifle or pistol. Usually it is not even close. But the stage designers have really been testing this out at the local matches.

And a final extra special thanks to Kurt Miller's front sight. So much for iron sights being more durable than optics (at least this time).

[Chris]

That's your opinion of the intent. Where was the intent listed in the official stage briefing?

I shot at all the targets, hit them all and even neutralized some and had a total adjusted time of 92.84. I didn't do anything outside the rules, I was assessed all the correct penalties and did not receive a score I did not deserve. I determined this was the best way for ME to shoot this stage to receive the best possible score. My intent as a competitor was to get the lowest possible score on the stage and highest overall placement in the match.

If the intent of the stage was to neutralize all the targets, why did the program stop presenting unneutralized targets after a certain amount of time making it impossible to neutralize them. There was no specified max or par time listed and the competitor was still assessed penalties for targets that were not hit and not neutralized. I watched several people shoot the course until the program completed and received scores upwards of 250 seconds after penalties were assessed.

[ERIC]

Don't tell me we all don't know what the intent for every stage is...WINNING, DUH!

I thought I'd throw that in before Charlie Sheen copywrites it.

[usp45ss]

If I wanted somebody to tell me how to shoot a stage, I'd shoot IDPA...

Congrats to the winners. Anybody got any other match vids? Sounds cool but I'm curious to see the "buckshot" stage up close.