was this a screw up?

[jeffsoward]

I shot a pro-am the weekend before last and I got some "advice" from my RO after a stage.

During the stage, while I was performing a reload, I did what I thought was the normal reload. I ejected the mag and turned the pistol to look into the magwell while I performed the reload. He said that I needed to watch the muzzle, since it pointed above the backstop. It was all downrange, but evidently, while rotating, the muzzle pointed upward at an angle, rather than straight at the backstop. Am I doing it wrong? I've seen many reloads done exactly the way I was doing it, but I really can't pivot the pistol without the muzzle climbing some.

He also informed me, in a separate incident, that I had to point the muzzle at the ground while showing clear, rather than downrange, or as he said, "not at the hard cover," which was a net.

Needless to say, I got rather confused about it all. Neither I nor the RO were new to any of it, and I don't feel like he was picking on me, but I made it a point to watch some of the high-level shooters during their mag changes and show clear, and they were all doing exactly what I was doing.

So, was I really doing it wrong? Or, was it possibly, just his preference. I've never had any other RO say anything about either.

[BritinUSA]

I've always reloaded with the gun parallel to the ground, I find its quicker for me this way, but I have seen some top shooters point the gun almost vertical during the reload. Same on the Unload, I keep the gun parallel and I certainly don't point it at the floor.

[Sarge]

You are fine. I think the RO was a little over zealous. The discussion was brought up before by me regarding ULSC with hard cover in front of me. The consensus was there is no need to point "away" from hard cover, i.e. at the ground or to the left or right(within the 180 of course). Watch all the youtube videos by top shooters or even your average run of the mill good shooters. When they reload, run from one position to another, transition from one side of a wall to the other etc, the gun is almost always never parallel to the ground. Hell, if you watch video of a gun firing there is a point where it is pointing over the berm during cycling.

If you have an AD during any of the actions above you are done anyway. The berm has nothing to do with that.

I had an RO caution me once about tilting the gun too high trying to show the RO I am clear. Too easy to break the 180.

[calishootr]

as for pointing the gun in a 'safe' direction, forthe most part USPSA style matches run a lil different than say an NRA match, where with the latter the sky and ground are concidered safe, in USPSA we dont, as Britain said, parallel to the ground is a safer bet when loading an unloading. dont worry, the RO was a little on the over zealous side, that can and will happen, but than again as an RO you will run into all types of shooters with all kinds of gun handling skills, I had a guy who was making big sweeps with his gunhand to get the mag out from under him, if he happened to step on it, he was looking like a bullfighter without the cape, more importantly, his gunhand was coming back MY way....not good

[BayouSlide]

Pointing towards the backstop is always good policy, but not required as long as you stay within 90 degrees of the backstop. Now if you actually break a shot and it leaves the range, bye bye, different rule.

"10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle

of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from

the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop,

allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or

not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6)."

Curtis

[G-ManBart]

If the match had been run under USPSA rules I don't think anybody would say a word about the muzzle being elevated above the top of the berm during a reload. R,

[jeffsoward]

Thanks all.

I really didn't feel like I was doing anything wrong and after watching some of the M and GM shooters do the same thing I was doing, I really just felt like maybe the guy was just over-zealous with me. I did note that he didn't say any of that to any of the high-level shooters (I scored some of them so I stayed close).

I'm just going to keep on keepin' on.

[Sarge]

Sometimes we as RO's don't intend to say some things we do. The problem is, like in your case, the comments bring doubt into the shooters mindset.

I had an RO tell me once to be careful because I almost broke the 180. I am glad it was the last stage as I would have thought about it all day. Lot's of shooters "almost" break the 180 in my opinion.

You are wise to play on.

[GrumpyOne]

Sometimes we as RO's don't intend to say some things we do. The problem is, like in your case, the comments bring doubt into the shooters mindset.

I had an RO tell me once to be careful because I almost broke the 180. I am glad it was the last stage as I would have thought about it all day. Lot's of shooters "almost" break the 180 in my opinion.

You are wise to play on.

Sarge, IMO, the RO should know better than to say something like that during a match (if you are an experienced shooter) and in fact I think it could be construed as coaching, and the RO should be cautioned about that!

[racerba]

There are no USPSA rules that prevent you from doing that, however, the range may prohibit the action. Then you must follow the local range rule, USPSA or not.

[Joe4d]

uhhhh no, there are no local rules in USPSA,,,

You didnt mention the sport you were shooting. In one sport, you will get alot of the ,"in a big match this, well next time that stuff, In USPSA you either broke the rule or you didnt, If the muzzel didnt exceed 90 degrees of the median of the back stop dont worry about it,

I'd ask the RO not to worry about it either, get your rule book and learn your rule book.

[professor]

In USPSA you either broke the rule or you didnt, If the muzzel didnt exceed 90 degrees of the median of the back stop dont worry about it,

I'd ask the RO not to worry about it either, get your rule book and learn your rule book.

Revolver shooters will elevate the muzzle nearly vertical upwards to drop a moonclip, then point the muzzle nearly vertical downwards to load in the fresh clip. Note the word "nearly".

Still, some ROs, including those working the Nationals, can get anal about the "nearly" part.

[shooterbenedetto]

its bad habit and hard to break it if you do.

If you go compete internationaly, it is more strict

and YES..muzzle pointed above the berm is a DQ! in IPSC.

Here in USPSA it is not.

[open17]

YES..muzzle pointed above the berm is a DQ! in IPSC.

Would you care to cite the rule number to support that statement?

[aztecdriver]

I was curious because I've heard this mantra repeated time and again - so I went to the IPSC rule book - I can't find a rule in 10.5 that states a muzzle pointed over a berm is a DQ. What I can quote, though are rules to the contrary:

2.1.2. Safe Angles of Fire

Courses of fire must always be constructed taking into account safe angles of fire. Consideration must be given to safe target and frame construction and the angle of any possible ricochets. Where appropriate the physical dimensions and suitability of backstops and side berms must be determined as part of the construction process. Unless otherwise specified, the default maximum muzzle angle is 90 degrees in all directions, measured from the front of the competitor facing directly center downrange. Violations are

subject to Rule 10.5.2.

2.1.2.1. Subject to the direction and approval of the Regional Director, stage(s) or range specific muzzle angles (reduced or increased) may be approved. Full details of the applicable angles must be published in advance of the match and must be included in the

written stage briefings (also see Section 2.3). Violations are subject to Rule 10.5.2.

Emphasis added was mine.

Also, they too have the local rules policy that does USPSA:

3.3.1. IPSC matches are governed by the rules applicable to the discipline. Host

organizations may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal precedent in the applicable jurisdiction. Any voluntarily adopted rules that are not in compliance with these rules must not be applied to IPSC matches without the express consent of the Regional Directorate and the IPSC Executive Council.

[ParaGunner]

Good stuff to know.

[Lange22250]

The OP did not state what type of match he was shooting. At our club we have adopted had rules about muzzles above the berm for 2 types of matches and a "recommendation" for another which would all be considered outlaw three gun matches.

Shooters must begin to accept that certain clubs will begin to adopt and enforce a no muzzles above the berm rule even though it is contrary to the USPSA rule book or that range will no longer host USPSA matches.

A lot of clubs, including ours, have been surrounded by new residential development and have become theoretically 1 stray round away from being shut down. In that light most club management has become very conservative in there rule making.

[jeffsoward]

Well, this match in particular was called a Pro-Am, as I stated in the OP. It's a time-based event with steel knock downs. As many as you can in XX seconds @ XX points per hit.

http://www.proamshooting.com/

I've spoken with some of the guys I shot with that day and with the RO that gave me the advice and the RO was just trying to give a "newb" some advice based on personal preference. I've shot a few matches since this happened, even with the RO, and no one seems to have a problem with my mag changes or ULSC.

[twodownzero]

There are no USPSA rules that prevent you from doing that, however, the range may prohibit the action. Then you must follow the local range rule, USPSA or not.

Not sure if this was clear to you from the post after yours so I want to point out a few things.

1. There are NO local rules in USPSA. None. Zero. Nada. If your club wants to put on a USPSA match, they MUST (as in, not optional, not discretionary, etc.) follow USPSA rules.

2. The USPSA has the ability to grant exceptions to this if your club gets the proper approval.

3. Clubs have repeatedly and often asked for precisely this exception (no pointing above the berm) and been denied. It should be painfully obvious why this is...there's just no way to play our game with this as a rule.

My thread on local rules didn't last long, but it should serve to put everyone on notice. There are no local rules in USPSA without approval, and you won't get approval, although you're welcome to try and there is a process for it.

[G-ManBart]

My thread on local rules didn't last long, but it should serve to put everyone on notice. There are no local rules in USPSA without approval, and you won't get approval, although you're welcome to try and there is a process for it.

That's not true. It depends on what the exemption being requested is. Sometimes you will, sometimes you won't get it approved. R,

[latech15]

I am not a rule guy. Some have memorized the book. More power to you. My comment isn't based on the rules. But if you point your gun up during ULSC the RO can't see the chamber.

[NatNat]

On my range you are not allowed to point the muzzle over the berm at any crcumstances.

The only exeption is revolver while dumping the brass.

[ima45dv8]

On my range you are not allowed to point the muzzle over the berm at any crcumstances.

The only exeption is revolver while dumping the brass.

Could you possibly give us a little more information?

Was this a USPSA match?

Many ranges have retrictions based on the discipline involved, which may or or may not involve USPSA standards.

???

[aztecdriver]

On my range you are not allowed to point the muzzle over the berm at any crcumstances.

The only exeption is revolver while dumping the brass.

Could you possibly give us a little more information?

Was this a USPSA match?

Many ranges have retrictions based on the discipline involved, which may or or may not involve USPSA standards.

???

Location, location, location - he is from Christchurch, NZ - though the concept of USPSA migrating from the shores of the USA makes me a happy camper - it might be local rule, and my brain isn't prepared to deal internationally.

Edited January 14, 2011 by aztecdriver

[NatNat]

Location, location, location - he is from Christchurch, NZ - though the concept of USPSA migrating from the shores of the USA makes me a happy camper - it might be local rule, and my brain isn't prepared to deal internationally.

Yep you are right. I'm from Christchurch and our range is a "No Danger Range" wich means that no projectile must be able to leave the range under any circumstances.

To ensure that we have a couple of rules.

1. Before you are allowed to shoot at the club you must proof that you can hit the Classic IPSC target 10 times without a miss.

2. The muzzle must never point higher than the berm.

3. We can not shoot steel :'-(

And we obviously shoot IPSC and not USPSA