Does USPSA need a classification system for multi-gun?

[bigbrowndog]

charles, you are assuming that the reason sporting clays has such large members is due to the classification system.

I am going to assume that this is not the case, nor do I think its important to our growth and acceptance as a sport among the masses.

some of the reasons is its appeal to youth, its visual appeal, the fact that you can sit down and watch and know how the competitor is performing, its lack of physical effort to participate, its lack of high start up cost, and its large production/manufacturer sponsorship backing. Face it the major sponsors are household names among the firearms industry, and 3 gun is not quite there yet, and I don't think adding classifications is going to get it there any quicker.

as usual I think we're going to have to agree to disagree

trapr

Edited August 17, 2010 by bigbrowndog

[rr4406pak]

Every other shooting sport has a classification system, why should 3-Gun be exempt?

[rschoon]

in my humble opinion, i find shooting classifiers to be a bit boring. there is very little "running and gunning" in them. i personally am attracted to 3-gun matches that require athletic ability in them as an intigral component. unless USPSA approves of classifier stages that allows this, i would prefer not to have a classification system for 3-gun.

[SinistralRifleman]

If we want to increase attendance in Multi-Gun/Action Shooting Sports more venues is probably more critical than what rules any governing body has. When all the major matches fill up or come close to it, its time for more venues.

[LChico]

Every other shooting sport has a classification system, why should 3-Gun be exempt?

Does SASS (Cowboy Action) have a classification system? I know they have enough "categories" to fill a truck, but I thought they pretty much shot "heads up." Cannot see where it hurt the growth of that sport.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

[Doug S]

Not sure what a classification would be good for??? I shot in last years MG Nats and finished 4th in "C" class and still went to the prize table at around 100th place??? If the classifications were used for other than comparing yourself to top shooters I might be for it. Last year, 3 plaques were given out to "C" class shooters for 1st, 2nd and 3rd, because there were so many "C" shooters but they still went to the prize table in order of their overall finish. If the 1st place in each class went first then the 2nd place in each class went 2nd, etc. then it might make a difference. Until a classification has a useful purpose, I can't see any reason to have one.

I have shot in several Outlaw 3-gun matches and I get to go to the prize table the same way as Nats, without any classificaiton. I also know how I finished by the overall stats in my division. Before we worry about a classification system for 3-gun, let's try and get more attendees at the Nationals. The difference between 2005's and 2010's nationals was tremendous,and I will go again when my schedule permits, with or without a classification!

Doug

[ken hebert]

Classification system = all the kids in T-ball getting a trophy.

HEADS UP, RUN WHAT YA BRUNG.

[dcloudy777]

I don't see the need for a multi-gun classification system, and really don't think a workable system could be devised. I do like the idea of "Lewis" cuts... where the top shooters in the 2nd and 3rd 33% of all the results get a early trip to the table. It gives a most any shooter at a major match a shot at a sweet prize, and doesn't effect the overall standings much.

DanO

[Charles Bond]

Not sure what a classification would be good for??? I shot in last years MG Nats and finished 4th in "C" class and still went to the prize table at around 100th place??? If the classifications were used for other than comparing yourself to top shooters I might be for it. Last year, 3 plaques were given out to "C" class shooters for 1st, 2nd and 3rd, because there were so many "C" shooters but they still went to the prize table in order of their overall finish. If the 1st place in each class went first then the 2nd place in each class went 2nd, etc. then it might make a difference. Until a classification has a useful purpose, I can't see any reason to have one.

I have shot in several Outlaw 3-gun matches and I get to go to the prize table the same way as Nats, without any classificaiton. I also know how I finished by the overall stats in my division. Before we worry about a classification system for 3-gun, let's try and get more attendees at the Nationals. The difference between 2005's and 2010's nationals was tremendous,and I will go again when my schedule permits, with or without a classification!

Doug

Doug do not confuse classifications with awards. How prizes are handed out varies match to match. But I do not advocate classifications for the purpose of trying to change anything about awards.

What I see as the purpose of classifications is to give members a threshold of achievement that they can obtain. There are a lot of shooters out there that will never win a match but come home and say with a lot of pride that they were first place "B" or that they just got bumped into "A" class.

You say your a "C" class shooter but I am betting you consider yourself stronger in one or maybe two weapons than the other. Having a classification system gives you a method by which to judge your overall standing in the sport vs. just your standing in the match.

I am quite confident that this proposal is not going to thrill existing 3 gun shooters of which I am one. But unless and until we do this we are not going to realize the level of participation we should have. And this is really not about 3 gun as much as it is just about rifles and just about shotguns. USPSA has the ability to be as successful or more successful with stand alone shotgun and stand alone rifle matches as it is with pistol. But as long as the entire process is built around just the pistol, we are not going to capture those shooters.

At the end of the day feel free to disagree with me if you want but I am yet to have anyone tell me how this would hurt our sport.

[Charles Bond]

Every other shooting sport has a classification system, why should 3-Gun be exempt?

Does SASS (Cowboy Action) have a classification system? I know they have enough "categories" to fill a truck, but I thought they pretty much shot "heads up." Cannot see where it hurt the growth of that sport.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

Linda I am not sure about SASS but Mounted SASS does have a classification system because it is more competition based rather than dress up based.

I have not seen the Wild Bunch rules.

Charles

Edited August 18, 2010 by Charles Bond

[dillon]

Up front, my 3 Gun experience to date is limited to the last two Rocky Mountain 3 Gun Championships, watching the SMM3G, and lots of Cowboy Action Shooting. I am not sure that a classification system will significantly add to this particular sport. Cowboy Action Shooting does indeed have more categories than you can shake a stick at.While CAS does not have classifications, it does have age-based and gender based categories, which greatly mitigate this. For 3-gun shooting, a classification might work,provided it was based on 3 gun stages,and not based on performance with each individual firearm. Obviously it would take time to develop classifiers, and the classifier stages would need to be flexible enough to work on a variety of ranges. Possibly a better method would be to omit designing classifier stages, and instead do like 3 GN does and designate certain stages as the classifying stages at certain events.How you shoot on these stages is the basis for your classification, either at that event if unclassified, or for future events. The drawback to this is how to classify those who do not compete at the designated events?

I do believe the recent rule changes for multi-gun adopted by USPSA are a significant step in the right direction, (especially as a Heavy Metal Iron sight shooter)and move USPSA much closer in line with other major 3 gun events.Provided that USPSA sets itself up to be inclusive of the other existing 3 Gun events, and not exclude any, then USPSA could become a parent organization for 3 Gun. However, without plenty of insight and good communication,3 Gun shooting will continue as it has, a variety of outstanding major events, but lacking much of an organized farm system at the bottom to promote initial interest and provide support & experience for shooters wanting to participate.

[Benelli Chick]

Okay, I was going to stay out of this, but...

I'm a "C" no matter how you look at it. I don't need someone to tell me that. I know who I should beat and who should beat me, and trust me, if I beat someone who should've beat me, I do have a sense of pride. I shot one stage at RM3G at 60%. (I was in a hurry and had to get back to doing things for the match, and the guys looked at me when I was done like I had sprouted horns!) I know I did good for me.

At a USPSA match, if I'm the top "C" because all the others are new or had a bad day, that little plaque does nothing for me. But, I can look through the list and say, Denise, you shouldn't have let so and so beat you, or better yet, whoo hoo! Look who I beat!

I know I'm not the most competitive person, but it seems to me a LOT of 3-gunners are out there for the fun, comraderie and the shooting, AND improving their performance. Yep, some of us want to improve our performance with very little practice, but we still want to get better. We judge ourselves against the best, and the better. Some practice more and see better results, but we all know if we're improving. A little card isn't going to tell us anything we don't know.

The awkwardness of a classification system is just silly. Someone will end up collecting money for it, because someone will have to keep track. You pay for your classification system to USPSA. So, telling me I'm a "C" will cost me money and someone a lot of work. I agree that you have a sense of pride when you get bumped up, but I know that I (and I suspect most 3-gunners out there) know when they put in a performance worthy of pride and can feel that pride without paying money, without having some arbitrary percent for pride forced on us, without having someone keep records of our achievement. I mean, it costs me and anyone else nothing for me to keep that score sheet that has me beating Daniel on a shotgun stage at High Plains. Now there's pride. I haven't framed it yet...

If you add classifications, then you have to honor them. You can't say...sorry, not enough "C"'s in this match, you don't get recognized! Maybe 3-Gunners are smarter than pistol only shooters (not derogatory, just making a point) in that we can feel pride without a piece of paper or a classification that says we're the best of the worse! I'm a school teacher, this whole thing is a sticky wicket. Do you want me to bump a kid up to a "C" because he got the highest "D" on a test????

3-Gun is growing with leaps and bounds. How is classification going to make more people want to shoot?? Do you know how disheartening it was for me as someone who had never touched a gun before (my family is anti-gun) stayed unclassified for what felt like forever because I couldn't get out of the basement?? I wanted to quit shooting way back then because USPSA said I wasn't even worth classifying. Then I got to be a "D" because as long as they weren't all zeros...The classification system told me I was a loser. I don't think that's the way to get people into the sport. Have them come, shoot, have fun, talk to people, be encouraged, have more fun and just shoot!

By the way, more venues is a good idea, but some of you have no idea what it takes to put on one of these matches. Someone asked me if I had thought about franchising RM3G. Aargh! Head exploding! These matches are really acts of love of the sport and the competitors, and as people get more comfortable, have more fun, they'll step up and make a match. We've had a number of new matches in the last few years! They'll keep coming! But, if you have to spend a stage, or three in each match as classifiers???????

Please, just let us shoot and have fun!!! 3-Gunners are really the best people in the world and THAT's what makes 3-Gun fun! The fun, the excitement, the movement, the stages, the people(shooters and sponsors) will be what continues to make this sport grow, not a little card with a classification on it!!!

My $.37!

Denise

[Charles Bond]

I know I'm not the most competitive person....

Denise

You had better call law enforcement since there is a gal using your name who is.

Charles

[Braxton1]

I believe that a Classification system for 3G or MG is not really necessary or even do-able. I am a Master-level shooter with most pistols; probably an "A" with a rifle or shotgun. Who would I compete against in M-A-A class? Would it be only folks with one M and two A's, no matter which order the letters are in?

I do, however, maintain my position that what is really needed to increase participation is a Production Division. Let folks have a venue to shoot guns that they likely already own, such as:

Production Division-legal pistol (self-explanatory);

AR-15 or similar with iron sights, 1" X 3" max flash hider/compensator, and 30 round max "on-or-in the gun"; and,

Pump-action shotgun, iron sights/beads,8 round tube.

As far as "growing the business", that seems like a "no-brainer" to me. We could easily dispel the notion that one simply MUST have a high-speed handgun, a Benelli or similar auto shotgun, and a spaced-out rifle to be competitive.

I sat down and added up what I've spent in the past few months getting geared-up for Limited Div 3-Gun. It's over $3500 in just long guns, not counting mag pouches/shotshell carriers/accessories.

Just one man's thoughts....

[Charles Bond]

Bruce I think your idea hss merit. It allows a shooter to get into the sport with less capital outlay and that is a good thing. But my notion of how to grow the sport is a bit broader.

For illustration draw 3 circles that overlap one another. Circle one is pistol owners and circle two is rifle owners and circle three is shotgun owners. You see over lap which shows that there are folks that own pistols what also own shotguns, folks that own shotguns and pistols, etc. It is a set/subset diagram.

Now color in just the pistol group. What you see from the diagram is the great range of gun owners in the diagram but you see by what you colored that which USPSA serves with pistol. The smallest set on the diagram is going to be those shooters who own all 3 guns so color that too as this is the total amount of folks who are eligible to shoot 3 gun.

At this point you have less than a third of the diagram colored. Does it not make sense to broaden the appeal of USPSA to have more to offer to more shooters if USPSA is to grow and prosper?

There are plently of 3 gunners who do not want this because they are afraid that classifications will wreck their matches or whatever. And then there are those who do not wish USPSA well since they had rather make their own rules or whatever and I understand that. But the fact is that we are filling just about every 3 gun or long gun match that is offered with the shooters we have who are mostly regional or national shooters. If we want to grow 3 gun, we have to grow it with local shooters at local venues and hope the local shooters grow into regional shooters and the venue grows to host regional matches. If we want local shooters they will come but they will not come without classifications.

Either USPSA has it wrong with how they have done it in pistol all these years or this is a path that USPSA needs to go down to grow our organization. I bet you and I both know 3 times more people with rifles than we do pistols and 5x more people with shotguns than pistols. USPSA has just really tapped the market as to what it could be in terms of competition shooting.

[M ammo]

If you want to be classified. Join an organization that classifies you. Go for it!

Classifications, do you tell me that at the end of the match you don’t look at the overall stats to see how you stacked up against the best? I know how I stack up with the local guys,, and I do joke,, with those guys that I like to go to the Big matches to get beat by the best,, instead of just you guys..

Now and again,, something happens, and I do out shoot some top guys! It feels good. It may be on only one stage, but I met the challenge head on, Mano-a-mano (hand to hand) if you will. No buffer.

Organizations, USPSA, IDPA so on and so forth. Have rules on rules. That sounds like all work and no play... and to listen to that guy who can quote the rule book by page and paragraph. Well nice for you.

I play this as a game for fun. Memorizing rule books,,, not fun by me. Running around and shooting BIG FUN!!!

Rules that MAKE me,,, shoot a stage,,, one way or the other,,, I don’t need that. And don’t give me that Tactical this and that… I did the Army thing, 20 years,,,,, Combat arms Forward Observer,,, I’ve been to the worst places on this Planet with a rifle… so bla bla bla,, It does not matter how fast YOU are,,, Combat is a team sport, You can be Rambo, , Combat is 3-D,,, 360 degree sphere on steroids,,, ,,, you are not going to live through a 20 target stage,, running and gunning,, all by yourself, you can only cover a small part of that alone,, ,, in real life,,, 3 Gun,, is a game,,, sorry,,,

Outlaw, for those of us that have started our own 3 gun matches, Made up our own rules, adjusted them and adapted them. And they work for us just wonderfully! And cost us 0$ yes that is Zero synonymous with no cost.

Feel no need for any Organization (I.E.) Governing body. Government/ Taxing organization.

To tell me how to do, what I am already doing with no need for their assistance, and having a great time doing it.

Somehow,,, that feeling of freedom spills over in to 3 Gun!

[mpeltier]

Of course the fact that sporting clays has ten times the number of members we have with their classification system is also something we can not ignore.

Charles

Scince both USPSA (pistol) and Sporting clays have classification systems, would you attribute the "ten times more members" to an admitted flaw(s) in USPSA's classication system or to something else entirely between the two sports.

3-gun, inspite of not having a classification system, is arguably the fastest growing segment of the action shooting sports. Maybee there is something else that needs scrutinizing that is more productive (to increasing membership)than a classification system.

And please don't regurgitate the line "well its the best we have". I have heard that so often it makes my head spin. Lets perfect whats already in place before we try to broaden it to 3-gun and really muck it up.

[Lee King]

I worked the NRA booth in Charlotte for USPSA/Steel Challenge (interestingly 1 with a classification system and 1 without). Most people took a look at the videos playing, raised their eyebrows, and said "I can't compete with those boys" and walked away. The majority of those who stuck around and chatted a bit were under the belief you HAD to have a tricked out Open gun so why bother with their little glock. When I looked around at the booth it kind of hit me, every single picture was of Todd Jarret or Jerry Miculek or the the like running open guns. There were a couple of Dave Sevigny and Julie Goloski tucked in with production guns. But the vast majority was tricked out open guns. The videos playing were of the "super" squad with people running mostly open guns at mach 4.

When you look at sports like NASCAR, it has a huge FAN base. People want to root for their favorite driver. But very few feel like they would want to put a car together and participate.

To me it seems like all of the marketing for both USPSA and 3 Gun is leading us to fans and not participants. I love 3GN. It's exciting to watch. But 99% of the shows was devoted to the superstars.

Classification, to me, seems like a tool to try to attract participants and not fans. Look at most recreational sports. Pool (billiards) has handicaps, golf has handicaps, etc. etc.

I don't know how you could make classification work. I'm not sure you SHOULD make classification work. But if you want the sport to grow, you have to make it feel accessible with whatever tool does that.

[lmccrock]

Just thinking out loud ... Why have classifiers? The USPSA Handgun rulebook refers to "Classifier Stages which are used to measure practical shooting skill."

At the match level, it means more ribbons and the possibility of getting a blue ribbon for being, for instance, 1st C in L10 (BTDT). Supposedly, this encourages and acknowledges progress among new members, also bragging rights for overall match prowess. Our local matches usually do not have enough in each of GM-M-A-B-C-D in each division to reward each class. So on match day it is hard to compare myself against enough C shooters to see how I am doing, so I compare against the match as a whole. 3gun would be the same.

USPSA would have to add shotgun and rifle classifiers, then some kind of "transition" classifier where more than one gun is used on a stage since transitions in 3gun are as important as reloads in handgun.

I wonder how many shooters' 3gun classifications would be very different than handgun-only? Probably not enough to matter, so why bother adding the complexity to club operations?

Lee

[JRW]

Let's keep it simple and go with what is already working.

3 Gunners will be classified once a year at the RM3G competition. There will be two classifications available: Expert or Not. Expert classification will be awarded to those finishing in the top 25% of their division. Expert classification will be personally awarded by John Paul of JP Precision Rifles.

Classification will be good for one year in which recipient will know they have accomplished something special, and that 75% of the 3 Gun community has them in their sights! Benefits of Expert classification include answering questions about gear, stage breakdown and working with new shooters. Special attention should be paid to Juniors to ensure the future of the sport.

A special Grand Master designation is available to those earning master classification for 5 continuous years. In addition to all the benefits of the master classification, Grand Masters are responsible for completing one of the following tasks annually:

1. Host/MD/RM/Start a major match

2. Host/MD/RM/Start a junior 3 Gun camp

3. Host/MD/RM/Start a local 3 Gun clinic

Failure to complete any of the above will cause the loss of the Grand Master classification.

[whiskey1]

Classifications will not work with multi-gun, period. Multi-gun nationals demonstrate this perfectly. "I was first C,A,B..or was is B,A,C...whatever". If USPSA wants to get into the long gun classification business I think that is great, but we will need a Nationals for Shotgun Only and a Nationals for Rifle Only. Talk about growing your membership! Folks would only need to own one gun and there would be a nationals specifically for them! Just like Pistol Nationals (all three of 'em). Yipee!!! Please leave multi-gun alone. BTW, I would be the first guy to sign up for a shotgun nationals and if the opportunity existed (enough matches) might even shoot the shotty exclusive of the other two guns.

As a matter of fact, I think I hit on something pretty good here. Charles, if you can get USPSA to conserve part of the member dues by having only one handgun nationals, do away with multigun nationals, then create a rifle and (separate) shotgun nationals, the organization can actually demonstrate the claim that they are interested in something other than handguns, expand thier potential membership base, and probably fill the next level 4 shotgun match held in the US. The result would actually be one less "Nationals" and would allow shooters to classify, test their skill, advance through the system, get promoted, blah, blah, blah, just like we currently do with pistols. I think there may be a reason that US shooters normally do so well at world pistol shoots but struggle on the international stage with shotgun and rifle. Not sure what that reason may be but I'm thinking about it.

[lmccrock]

3 Gunners will be classified once a year at the RM3G competition.

Pretty sure RM3G will never be a USPSA match.

Lee

[M ammo]

Your all proving the point,,

""Classifications will not work with multi-gun""

Too much,,, stuff,,, = not fun! If you like stuff,, have at it!

Not enough shooting wile taking up you time doing stuff.

Do you show up to a match to shoot? or to do more paperwork? = stuff

Shooting = FUN.

Stuff=Not fun.

Just as simple as that.

[RiggerJJ]

If we want local shooters they will come but they will not come without classifications.

Charles,

Everyone has an opinion, yours is obviously bias towards USPSA solving all of our (3gun) percieved problems wheither we actually have them or not.

But to the above statement, I simply say;

BS!!!

That is one of the most ignorant things I have seen you write on these forums...

jj

[benelli2]

My observation and thoughts from years of trying to catch the top shooters

I never cared about the classification system, it just encouraged sandbagging or grandbagging and skewed prize tables

Classification system for 3 gun adds no shooter value to the sport, only expense and trouble for the hard working people putting it on.

Outlaw matches run smoother and are far more popular than USPSA 3 gun events

No governing body is needed, each major 3 gun has its own flavor and theme and I like it that way

3 gunners vote with thier wallets and attend the matches they favor

More local matches will start due to increased interest, Top Shot, 3 Gun Nation, they don't need USPSA rules or dues to be successful

If we make a division and classification for everyone we can reach a fully entitlement based sport and everyone can feel good about themselves and take home a little ribbon, political correctness makes me sick and that isn't 3 Gun