Being in the Super Squad

[Field]

There is this idea that hanging out with the best of shooters will make you better than if you are hanging out in squads with people of lower skill or 'casual' shooters.

I am kind of on the fence about this. im not really sure what to think.

I have had some of my biggest screwups and worst performances when there were some real super dudes in my squad with me that blaze through a course like a DragonBall-Z fireball and then of course i am not at thier speed and skill level and i tried to go faster than my skills allowed.

I have had my best performances and shot best at matches where im just with some random people and it feels more chill and im just concentrating on shooting the course as smoothly as possible and im more relaxed, because you end up going fairly fast anyways even though you dont 'try' to go fast.

IMO it is good to watch VIDEOS of good shooters at a later time when you ARENT shooting so you can see what the possibilities of performance are but i feel that watching realllly good shooters when you are actually shooting at a match can be counterproductive. maybe this seems stupid but alot of the time when there is a super shooter in my squad and i am going after them i try to watch them as little as possible and not have thier fireball speed in my head.

if you have other opinions/ideas on this matter please drop the block. i dont know if i am that wierd or not. maybe not

Edited August 1, 2010 by Field

[cyburg]

The biggest thing we have to remember is that we are shooting against ourself. Where others impact our actions is when we tri to hard or try to impress someone. As long as we do what we have practiced over and over and stay in our zone then we will do our best.

Don't change your gear or style on the day of a shoot. Its a recipe for disaster.

Now training with a super squad tuype group is different. There you want to push yourself. Once each run is done then everyone can discuss what happened and what can be done to improve.

My .02

[Micah]

Being on a squad with other excellent shooters, you are able to discuss tactics and bounce ideas off of each other as to how best to attack the stage. You can do this with any group of shooters, but it is to your advantage to get the opinion from a more experienced competitor.

That being said, at a major match 11 other guys in D class on my squad who paste, reset steel, and are cohesive is infinitely better than 11 GMs who only get out of their chair to shoot.

[ima45dv8]

I have had my best performances and shot best at matches where im just with some random people and it feels more chill and im just concentrating on shooting the course as smoothly as possible and im more relaxed....

I'd say you answered your own question.

There's a pretty wise bird that's lives a bit west of here that we affectionately refer to as Bonedaddy. I'm looking up on the wall of my office at something he wrote a few years ago. The simple and clear truth of it struck me so that I framed it and hung it over my desk for a reminder as needed.

Humility!

The lack of it causes me to try.

Bottom line, I can only shoot as well as I've trained myself to shoot. But, I think, "that isn't good enough for me".

Since it's impossible for me to shoot better than me, lacking humility, I will try to shoot like someone else.

Thus, a lie is born. Lies always come unraveled in the end. The end comes quickly in a 20 round field course.

This is the most frequent source of "crash and burn" I see in myself and others.

Blessed are the humble...

There's a lot to be learned from shooting with the hi-end folks. One of the best lessons is that I need to shoot my game.

[CocoBolo]

We seem to lump things all in one pile called shooting. Shooting a match with someone better than you can be useful if you will focus in on those things you can actually learn like foot work, and the approach to the stage. Which shot did he take first and why etc.

The best video education I got was the time I videoed my GM friend and my D self on the same stages at Double Tap. Put them up side by side and I can see where I am wasting time, and where I was actually dropping the hammer faster than he was, that was big eye opener, leaned to slow the shot down a little and became very accurate overnight, moved to C and bumping B now.

I don't like shooting with our local super squad, instead of taping and resetting they are bickering about some what if in the rules. They also walk the stage till my feet hurt and they are the last ones to get done an 1 1/2 hours after the rest of us, and that's not working in 100 degree heat, when you are on the set up and put up crew. They shoot fast now just tape and reset just as faster, and save the discussions for lunch after the match or is it the midnight snack.

Will you shoot better, not if you try to go as fast as they do, they did it in 7 seconds and when you try the wheels fall off.

[boz1911]

I remember a few years ago I shot with Sevigney at a local match. I was shooting after him so I watched him intently. He made everything so smooth that it looked easy. The result of course was crash and burn for me. Now, however, it seems that when I shoot a COF, that I'm in my own little world. It doesn't matter who I'm shooting with, when the buzzer goes off I shoot my plan and speed. I have no expectations of time I just know it'll be the speed that I'm capable of that particular day.

[ima45dv8]

I don't like shooting with our local super squad, instead of taping and resetting they are bickering about some what if in the rules. They also walk the stage till my feet hurt and they are the last ones to get done an 1 1/2 hours after the rest of us, and that's not working in 100 degree heat, when you are on the set up and put up crew. They shoot fast now just tape and reset just as faster, and save the discussions for lunch after the match or is it the midnight snack.

Rather than delete this post, which was my initial reaction, I want to leave it here as an example of what not to post.

This is not the place to 'soapbox' local issues. Talk to the MD, your Section Coordinator, or whoever is available locally to address such problems.

The Hate forum guideline that says the only shooter we're allowed to complain about here is ourselves, applies anywhere on this forum.

Thanks in advance for your collective cooperation. We now return you to our regularly scheduled programming.

[bbbean]

I've been fortunate enough to be squadded with several M or GM shooters at the sectionals and Nats I've shot. The experience of watching them analyze a stage, bouncing ideas off them, and getting technique/strategy/gear tips from them has been worth a lot more than I paid in entry fees.

[Neomet]

I routinely shoot with the local Super Squad. Doing so has its benefits and perils. You do get the benefit of seeing their stage breakdown but you have to adapt it to your skill level. To quote Clint "A man has to know his limitations". The first time I shot with a GM I decided I would shoot each stage just like he did. It was an unholy disaster. They simply can do things that we can't. The other thing is you get used to hearing the cadence of their shots. This is almost a subconscious thing but you wind up shooting faster than you can with any reasonable degree of success. Basically there are lots of benefits to watching them but you have to realize that you still can only shoot as well as you can shoot. The other benefit for me is these guys are my buds and I have a blast shooting with them.

Great quote Mark. I'm gong to put that up somewhere myself.

[Sarge]

Being on a squad with other excellent shooters, you are able to discuss tactics and bounce ideas off of each other as to how best to attack the stage.

I think there is a difference between excellent shooters and a super squad. I personally don't like shooting with super squads whether they are the local or national type. It is far too easy to try to emulate their actions. Being a C shooter who knows his limitations I still fall victim to some degree. At the Indiana match I was squadded with Bob Vogel. I would come up with my plan and tell myself to stick to it then see him practicing something completely different. Most times I was able to recognize that I could not pull it off so I ignored him. Other times I would let doubt set in and shoot the stage totally uncommited

which is never good, especially at a major.

I was also squadded with Chris Keen, who went on to win limited. He is what I would consider part of the local super squad. Usually I can learn a trick or two from him at local matches but at the Indiana Match he was all about winning and was clearly on a different level than me. Essentially this made the match a little less fun since it was mostly all business. Personally I would have been better off squadded differently for this match.

I think I would be happier shooting with shooters I have more in common with when it comes to shooting ability.

I often read posts which say if you learned something then you did good. When it comes to shooting specifically, a match, especially a major, is a test of what you have already learned.

[GrumpyOne]

I, myself, find that if I am squadded with people of my own ability, I only do enough to beat them (if it is in the cards that day! ), but when squadded with others who are at a notch above me, it makes me try harder, and sometimes I crash and burn, other times I learn something new which helps. While it is all goos, being able to be the best in your squad, are you really trying hard to win? Or just trying hard enough to beat those in your squad? While I also don't think it's a good thing to be placed in a squad that is way above your abilities as you can become discouraged, or really thrown off of your game, byt trying to emulate them. Baby steps. There is a natural progression, when doing repetitive tasks. Ny old boss (and one of my closest friends!), when I told him I was sorry for not being able to do something as fast as the next guy (it was him, I took his position when he made manager), He told me not to sweat it, speed comes with repitition. I try to live up to this now. But, if you never push yourself, you will never get fast.

[racerba]

I am an A class shooter so I like being squadded with the GMs. I like to see why they shoot a different strategy than I would and learn from that. There are times they will try something I would never think of doing, but if I think I can pull it off, I'd try it. I'm not going to get a division win, so learning something new is a win in itself.

[Jake Di Vita]

In order to do it successfully, you need to completely have your ego in check. If you don't, you will shoot much worse than normal. If you do, you will learn more and shoot better every time.

[Nik Habicht]

It is far too easy to try to emulate their actions. Being a C shooter who knows his limitations I still fall victim to some degree. At the Indiana match I was squadded with Bob Vogel. I would come up with my plan and tell myself to stick to it then see him practicing something completely different. Most times I was able to recognize that I could not pull it off so I ignored him. Other times I would let doubt set in and shoot the stage totally uncommited which is never good, especially at a major.

I have done that. Early on in my shooting career, I was privileged to shoot a number of matches -- both club and major -- in the company of some talented folks. I used to plan a stage, then watch Dave Olhasso, Dave Marques, or Bob A. shoot it totally differently, and before I knew what they were doing, I was trying to emulate their plan. From several of such disasters, I learned to watch them carefully -- sometimes they really had a better way to approach a stage, sometimes just the order of engagement in a particular position would be different from my plan.

If it was early, enough, I might look at it during the walk-through; if not, I learned to stick with my original plan. Lately, I'm finding that it takes less time to finalize my plans -- I've spent enough time doing so that I'm simply better and faster at it. That allows me more time to leave a difficult position in flux, and to watch a few people shoot it, before locking my plan for that position down. Essentially the rest of the stage is locked, and the one position -- which might involve timing of movers -- is being evaluated right up until I'm on deck. That's when I lock my plan, so that I can run through it a couple of more times live, and several more times in my head......

[G-ManBart]

In order to do it successfully, you need to completely have your ego in check. If you don't, you will shoot much worse than normal. If you do, you will learn more and shoot better every time.

Exactly!

I'll take shooting with the best at any given match. If they come up with something I don't think I can do, I file it away as something to explore later. Aside from general stage strategy, the thing I like about shooting with the really good folks is being able to see how they sequence complex arrays, i.e. swingers, drop-turners, etc. R,

[jasmap]

In order to do it successfully, you need to completely have your ego in check. If you don't, you will shoot much worse than normal. If you do, you will learn more and shoot better every time.

+1. Jake nailed it.

I like shooting with buddies but most of my close buddies are M's or GM's. I learned that no matter what, I have to shoot my game. We exchange ideas for stage breakdown but everyone has their own style of shooting and you have to learn your style and shoot it. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be flexible in your shooting though. I was squadded with a bunch of GM's at a match in NM recently and Sevigny was one of them and Kale Garrettson was another one. All 3 of us were shooting Production and we all bounced ideas off of each other. We sometimes all shot the stage the same way and sometimes none of us shot it the same, using 3 different stage breakdowns. We did this to shoot our game and our points. All 3 of us finished top 5 in Production with Sevigny winning Production. Sevigny's stage breakdown wasn't always "better" for me or Kale but he simply just shot his plan better.

The point is like I mentioned before, don't try to be Max Michel or Rob Leatham but be you. Take skills and ideas from them and apply that to your shooting.

[j1b]

Been a long, long time -

But I can say that given the chance to be in the super squad or out? Super squad everytime.

Chance to learn. With people with like goals. Seeing where I can get better or where I may be better already.

All of it invaluable.

If you can get it out of your head that they aren't watching you (they aren't!) and you just get back to shooting your game - then you're good.

When you're so good that they are watching you - then trust me - you're at a level where you were going to be in the super squad regardless. Just time to go win.

J

[sgtis108]

I love shooting with the SS. It never influences my game. It doesn't affect the match at all for me. Ahh..... but the drive home when I replay what they did and how they did it is such a big tool for me. It does affect the next match, where I'm able to use what I've learned or at least consider new options.

Shooting with my regular crowd is not as good for me. I still learn, it is just at a slower pace.

[bbbean]

I love shooting with the SS. It never influences my game. It doesn't affect the match at all for me. Ahh..... but the drive home when I replay what they did and how they did it is such a big tool for me.

Besides, when you get back to your local club, you can casually mention "So anyhow, Rob was telling TJ this great story when Max comes up behind him and...."

[JoshF]

In order to do it successfully, you need to completely have your ego in check. If you don't, you will shoot much worse than normal. If you do, you will learn more and shoot better every time.

Nicely said Jake.

[Supermoto]

I always like being able to shoot with top shooters. It is such a great learning experience. think of it as a mini class instead of a match

Locally I like to be in the squad with the best local shooters, it lets me gauge my overall performance, I am better able to plan my whole match, instead of having to push hard on every stage because I don't know how others are doing and I feel I have a better overall match.

[Corey]

ive shot with a couple local Ms and GMs and I think I get much more out of those days than when im squadded with a bunch of other "regulars", haha. I like being able to ask " why did you do it that way?" of " what do you think of this?" and getting input from them on stage breakdowns, recaps, etc. That being said, when Im on deck, I forget who is standing behind me and when the buzzer goes off, its just me. Hopefully after a good run, I can hear a "good job" from one of them to give me a nice emotional boost. next stage, same old same old.

Now, that being said, Would I want to be the only B shooter on a squad of 9 or 10 other guys all ranked M or higher? I dont think so. Id feel like the little lost black sheep who would be holding everything up. The perfect squad: couple of newer shooters (maybe their first match or two), a couple of mid-Bs to equal my skill and and few higher ups to bounce ideas off of and learn from.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I like to shoot with different shooters all the time. I have shot with some of the best and some are great and helpful and others not so much. I like to look at the SS plan and see if I'm on the right track or not. I am finding in most cases I am doing it the correct way. I believe you can learn from anyone and do so every time I shoot. I say if you get a chance to shoot with a SS I would do it. Take that knowledge that they can give you and use it. Then shoot with your local buddies and see how they do it. Thanks, Eric

[Field]

last match i shot i was in a squad with Mike Hughes and he told me to get a more aggressive stance, lower my center of gravity a bit and be a bit more 'urgent' which was good advice because he smoked most the stages and had some really quick times but i dont really wanna step on the gas TOO hard i mean the last thing i want to be doing is dropping a mag on accident or something cause im trying to blaze

[Carmoney]

Besides, when you get back to your local club, you can casually mention "So anyhow, Rob was telling TJ this great story when Max comes up behind him and...."

Or: "So anyhow, Cliff was telling John this great story when Jerry comes up behind him and...."