Unload and show clear!

[flack jacket]

Hi folks!

I just wanted to bring this up topic up since I'm guilty of it....

What ever division I shoot, production, Limited, and Open. After some logical advice, how do you Unload and show clear?

During my early days shooting Open Iron sighted pistols, this process was after the stage run:

1. Drop magazine, Hold the removed magazine in my strong hand pinky, while holding pistol in strong hand. (Learned it from the TGO and other OG shooters

2. Weak hand grasping rear of slide while cupping ejection port to retrieve live round.

3. Hold slide back or slide stop, show RO empty chamber

4. Slide forward by releasing slide stop while pointed down range ( after inspection clear)

5. Squeeze trigger, hammer down ( down range)

6. Holster

I was told the possibility of primer striking extended ejector could ignite a round while outside chamber ( I witnessed this while a fellow friend/shooter was clearing)

I quickly stopped that.

Nowadays.. with Iron sighted or Scoped pistol.......

Step 2. Rack live round into the air and catch live round with weak hand while pistol in strong hand is still pointed safely downrange.

Then proceed to step 3-6

Is this Unsafe?

I was told is safe because the pistol is POSITIVELY clears and ejects the live round and shooter retrieving live round before hits the ground.

Mind you we are around alot of IPSC/USPSA shooters and common practice.

Tactical classes I took scolded me for that stating "Unsafe"

Thoughts?

TIA

[boz1911]

The concern is the round does not eject properly and the ejector strikes the primer. I don't do it because I have a good friend that kaboomed a round. In order to commit to catching the round it has to be done quickly not leaving time to make sure the round ejected properly.

Since showing clear doesn't add time to my run I just do it slowly and the round will lay on top of my gun or worst case falls directly at my feet. I don't like to leave long loaded 9 major ammo laying around so I always retrieve it if possible.

[jkatz44]

Hi folks!

I just wanted to bring this up topic up since I'm guilty of it....

What ever division I shoot, production, Limited, and Open. After some logical advice, how do you Unload and show clear?

During my early days shooting Open Iron sighted pistols, this process was after the stage run:

1. Drop magazine, Hold the removed magazine in my strong hand pinky, while holding pistol in strong hand. (Learned it from the TGO and other OG shooters

2. Weak hand grasping rear of slide while cupping ejection port to retrieve live round.

3. Hold slide back or slide stop, show RO empty chamber

4. Slide forward by releasing slide stop while pointed down range ( after inspection clear)

5. Squeeze trigger, hammer down ( down range)

6. Holster

I was told the possibility of primer striking extended ejector could ignite a round while outside chamber ( I witnessed this while a fellow friend/shooter was clearing)

I quickly stopped that.

Nowadays.. with Iron sighted or Scoped pistol.......

Step 2. Rack live round into the air and catch live round with weak hand while pistol in strong hand is still pointed safely downrange.

Then proceed to step 3-6

Is this Unsafe?

I was told is safe because the pistol is POSITIVELY clears and ejects the live round and shooter retrieving live round before hits the ground.

Mind you we are around alot of IPSC/USPSA shooters and common practice.

Tactical classes I took scolded me for that stating "Unsafe"

Thoughts?

TIA

I used to eject it into the air and catch the round but I quit doing it. A GOOD shooter accidentally set off the round as he was trying to eject it into the air. Don't do nothing fancy, period. Just eject the round onto the ground and pick it up afterwords.

Jason

[Chills1994]

I was just surfing YouTube trying to find a good video of Ben Stoeger unloading and showing clear.

He like fans his strong hand finger over or near the ejection port, by first hooking his strong hand thumb under the "beavertail". Then with his weak hand, he reaches from under neath the gun, under the dust cover and racks the slide back, catching his round with his fanned-out strong hand fingers.

Me? I slingshot the slide back and catch the round in midair. In my opinion...when more Gecko45's of the world start showing up at matches and shooting circles around me, I might... might start listening to what they have to say.

Or until I have a post ejection KABOOM!

Whichever occurs first......

Edited January 31, 2010 by Chills1994

[Ray_Z]

After I complete a stage I stop dead in my tracks with the gun pulled in, trigger finger up the side of the gun, and facing down range. When the RO gives the command "if you are finished unload and show clear"

I release the mag with my strong hand, catch it with my weak hand and put it in my left rear pocket,

Rack the slide back and check the chamber for empty and wait for the RO to give the next command "if clear, hammer down and holster"

That gun has now been checked three times to make sure that you won't be walking away from the line with a loaded gun.

Yeah, sometimes I turn the gun Chicago side up and flip my loaded round out. It's sorta a little celebration if I did the stage the way I wanted to. Also I won't have to pick up my loaded round. I don't se anything unsafe with doing it. The chance of somebody stepping on it and having it go off are just as good as having a slam fire.

[JThompson]

A well known forum member and friend had one lite on the ejector and it damned near killed him. I must admit that I do the flip and catch thing. We never have really talked about ejector shape with regard to this. Some ejectors come almost to a point and I can see where they would light one pretty easy. Mine is not at all like that and I took the time to bevel it at the bottom, top and sides, it would be very hard for it to light one off. My strike point is up the ejector a bit, so the bevel doesn't effect my ejection. I think the likelihood of my Open lighting one is very very remote. I don't know that any one way prevents or is less likely to cause one to light, than another... I do know there are ways to lessen the damage that can be caused when one does light.

Basically, the ejection port becomes the barrel if you detonate one there, so you want to treat that opening like your barrel and make sure that it's not pointed at anything you don't want shredded.... like your face, throat and hands.

JT

Edited January 31, 2010 by JThompson

[Joe4d]

Unloading isnt part of the timed portion of the event, people should stop treating it like it is.

Unloading is part of the COF and quite a few DQ's have been handed out to people trying to look cool and screwing up.

[colt]

If you set one off while unloading and hurt your self is one thing but you might get the RO hurt too . In my RO course the instructor told how he had to pull brass out of him self because someone unloaded to fast .

Brent

[ChuckS]

Here are some classic threads on flip n' catch...

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=69577&view=findpost&p=805126

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15211&view=findpost&p=176521

Later,

Chuck

[open17]

I drop the mag, then do a flip-n-catch with the live round. Then pull the slide back and

look at/show to the RO the empty chamber.

I've seen three detonations at unload and show clear. All three were 40 cal S-I Limited

guns. Two caused minor or no injury, one required minor surgery to remove a piece of

brass. I've never seen or heard of a detonation with 9mm or 45.

[Jman]

TGO

Jim

[Jim Norman]

Two things, First; If TGO doesn't see a need to flip and catch, why does anyone else? Personally, essentially I do the same thing, remove the magazine, rack the round slowly out so that it drops into my hand.

Second; and this is my opinion, I would classify the rack and catch in the air as USGH and DQ your butt if it were my call. There are just too many things that can go wrong. Now admittedly some of you are just so spectacularly coordinated that you can do this without fail, but then the newbie or less coordinated shooter makes the attempt and lights on off or just sweeps themselves and we have to DQ them or worse. Why did they do it? Because they saw you Hot-Shot.

Someone else mentioned that ULSC is not a timed event, yes,it is a part of the COF and you can get a DQ doing it but I have seen more than one person screw them selves over by doing a speed ULSC. Got the end of the COF, and did their signature rack, flip catch and then realized they had another target remaining!

Jim

[Chills1994]

Jim Norman wrote:

...I would classify the rack and catch in the air as USGH and DQ your butt if it were my call...

Really?

I am looking all through 10.5 ....10.5.1, 10.5.2...and I got nothing.

[Seth]

I have seen some ugly unload routines, but have found that the gun dictates the procedure for me. My Limited gun is tuned so well that it requires absolutely no magic technique to get the round to pop straight up in the air. All I do is stick out my hand and it lands there.

The open gun is tuned to shoot the round sideways REAL flat and makes catching the round almost impossible, so I just give it a tug and let the round hit the ground....

I don't see either method as preferable.

[GrumpyOne]

Remove the mag, place it in it's holder, the rack the slide full back hard, letting the round hit the ground. C'mon, it's just bending over to pick up a round.....

[L-10_shooter]

I like to unload like TGO does it in the video posted above. I am a lefty so when racking normally, the RO cannot see into the chamber. I let the round fall on the ground and pick it up after. Simple and I can watch the round fall out to know for myself that the gun is clear.

[jkatz44]

Remove the mag, place it in it's holder, the rack the slide full back hard, letting the round hit the ground. C'mon, it's just bending over to pick up a round.....

+1 Guys, this is common sense. Just rack the round out onto the ground and pick it up after wards. Why would you risk the chance of having it go off.

[sirveyr]

Just unload the gun with the muzzle pointed into the berm. Who gives a shit how it looks?

[Jim Norman]

Jim Norman wrote:

...I would classify the rack and catch in the air as USGH and DQ your butt if it were my call...

Really?

I am looking all through 10.5 ....10.5.1, 10.5.2...and I got nothing.

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

So what 10.5 does is give us a guideline, not a constraint.

Catch and flip is showboating and should have no place in our sport. After you have completed ULSC, HDH and the RO announces range is Clear, I don't give a rat's rear if you jump up in the air and do a back flip.

Jim

[lcs]

Jim Norman wrote:

...I would classify the rack and catch in the air as USGH and DQ your butt if it were my call...

Really?

I am looking all through 10.5 ....10.5.1, 10.5.2...and I got nothing.

Your right. The rule book does not specifically address "flip n catch" a live round. In my opinion, the act of "flip n catch" is UNSAFE gun handling and I too believe it should be addressed in the rule book as an automatic DQ.

Last September I got a ride on Care Flight. I ejected a live round while in a COF that failed to fire and the round detonated half in and half out of the ejection chamber. Granted not a "flip n catch", but the same detonation can occur on a "flip n catch" too. The brass entered my throat and upper lip. If the piece of brass in my neck had been 1/8" to the right---it would have cut the main artery and care flight would not have arrived in time.

There is no valid reason for "Flip n Catch"!!

[Aristotle]

Asking this question... during this part of the shooting season. Is like flicking a cigarette, into dry grass.

Mods, some good links to threads on the subject have already been given. There is also the "search" feature.

I don't see anything good coming from this if you know what I mean.

Edited January 31, 2010 by Aristotle

[Jman]

Agreed. Stage 17 Cake Bomb 2007 Nationals. Shot it better than most by the way .

So excited to finish up cool too, I opened and showed clear like a ass scratchin' monkey.

"Clear" "Slide" "Hammer" BANG, put one in the berm, went back to the hotel.

BUT, I did flip the one before it beautifully. This was the genesis of the command

changing from "Clear" to "If Clear" in chase these things are important to you.

Take your time. Keep it simple.

Jim

[Loves2Shoot]

Now admittedly some of you are just so spectacularly coordinated that you can do this without fail

Are you that easily impressed, really? It isn't hard, necessary or unsafe, that is just plain ridiculous.

Think about what you are really saying, you are going to DQ someone because the don't pull the slide back slowly enough for your liking to remove the loaded round in the chamber because that is how you prefer to do it? If you pull the slide back fast who give a flying flip if the person catches the round or if they let it hit the ground. It has nothing to do with safety if the person does not break any safety rule while doing so. I've seen more folks jam up there guns NOT pulling the slide back far enough and getting the round stuck cockeyed in the chamber, I would much rather see folks just rack the damn slide and eject the round instead of just farting around with it.

Your DQ wouldn't stand with a competent Range Master. I don't care enough about losing a few live rounds to feel the need to catch the round during a match, but it is not difficult or "spectacular" if you have a properly tuned pistol.

I would never suggest anyone put their hand over the ejection port, as stuff happens and there are many other ways to unload without exposing yourself to danger.

[Neomet]

I'm with Scott on this one. Any kaboom off the ejector is going to happen with the weak hand in the same place as if you were letting the round drop. Makes no difference if you end up catching it in the air or pick it up off the ground. Now if you are waving the gun all over the place that is a different issue.

Personally I usually put the dropped mag in a pocket, roll my strong (left) hand inward 45 degrees so the ejection port is facing down and slightly away from me and pull the slide back at a moderate speed. Roll the gun back up

for the RO and I to be sure it is clear, hammer down, holster. The live round is almost always right at my feet and the ejection port is not pointed at my beautiful puss or the RO as the round comes out. This would

be tougher for right handed shooters though. (Finally, something that is!)

I think catching the round has no more inherent risk than letting the round drop to the ground. You can set a round off my having the primer hit a rock. The only thing that I never do is to put my fingers anywhere

near the ejection port to catch the round. It something goes badly there are all sorts of metal pieces coming out of that port at significant speed. One of my good buddies out here got fragged in the hand in just

that manner.

JMHO

Edited February 1, 2010 by Neomet

[Seth]

It ain't illegal. DQ me for it and we're marching straight to the MD.

With that said. Here's Amidon's response when I personally queried him about it:

'The practice is still allowed as being legal, but frowned upon, there have been many detonations when unloading and showing clear, many of them with .40 S&W due to an oversized ejector, as the practice does not take any more time than it does to unload the gun the normal way, it can only be looked at as showmanship.

Personally, I would hate to see anyone, shooter or RO get a face full of fragment should the round detonate by striking the ejector when the flipping occurs, but at this time, it is not against the rules as writted.

Regards,

John Amidon'