Unload and show clear!

[Joe4d]

I dont like that response from Amidon . Not saying I agree or disagree I just dont think official rulings should waste ink or pixels on verbs like frown, discourage, should, He does clarrify and make the point that it isnt against the rules. He should have left it at that. Do Donot, Can Cant, please leave out the open ended non committal verbs.

Here ya go catch the bullet in the air.

[Corey]

i guess i see nothing wrong with just grabbin the back of the slide and giving it a tug, tossing the round on the ground. Show the RO its clear, drop the hammer, holster then pick up the live round and drop it in my pocket and go watch my scoring.

[Chris Christian]

If the ejector contacting the primer is going to set off the round being cleared from the gun, the ejector has to strike the primer with some degree of force. Minor contact isn't going to do it. A slow, and measured, removal of the cartridge in the chamber isn't going to generate that degree of force. I prefer to remove the magazine first (obviously) then cup my weak hand over the ejection port, with my strong hand pinky under the mag well. Retracting the slide slowly will put the round into the mag well, where my pinky will catch it for retrieval, with no chance of a kaboom. The self-styled " high speed pro shooters" who violently jack the round into the air and then attempt to catch it with their weak hand tend to tick me off (stronger language avoided here) because I am often the SO/RO standing on that side of the ejection port and if a Kaboom occurs from their show off behavior I'm one who is likely to catch sharpnel from it.... I had enough of that in Vietnam. There is no need to "show off" on the unload & clear. Just do it slowly and safely. The shooter isn't the only one who risks injury here, the RO is right in the line of fire.. Although... in all honesty... I wouldn't mind the "jack & catch " crowd winding up with a face full of shrapnel. It will change their behavior to a safer one.

Chris Christian

[Sarge]

I was at a match last year that featured some very talented shooters and some very distinguished officials running the show. One shooter did the flip and catch deal with no problems at all. But when the shooter left the official turned to me and said, "Man I wish we could make that a DQ" or words to that effect. So I think it is safe to say that many more people than some might realize take a dim view of the practice.

[Flyin40]

Remove the mag, place it in it's holder, the rack the slide full back hard, letting the round hit the ground. C'mon, it's just bending over to pick up a round.....

+1 Guys, this is common sense. Just rack the round out onto the ground and pick it up after wards. Why would you risk the chance of having it go off.

Rounds have detonated when hitting the ground and catching the primer just right. Seen several post on the Enos forums about it.

Personally I do the rack and catch method. The gun is meant to have the slide racked hard to eject the round. In my opinion the guy that slowly ejects the round will have the detonation far more than ejecting it out hard.

As an RO I like the round ejected before the empty chamber is shown to me. Rack the slide and eject the round then hold the gun so I can verify clear. I have seen guys hold the gun back so I can look as they eject the round. Not happening.......... I'm not going to tell a guy how to unload and show clear but as an RO I'm not sticking my face up there as the round is ejecting out. Its pretty easy to do without causing any problems. I just say "Unload"....with a pause before saying the rest.

Flyin

[Neomet]

I'll back up Flying on this one too. My bud who had the round go off was slowly racking the slide back with his hand over the top of the slide. I don't think there is any proof that setting the primer off is any more likely

racking the slide slowly, medium quick, or snapping it back. If they will detonate dropping to the ground, and they will, no slide speed is a guarantee of a safer ejection.

[Jim Norman]

Hmmm, Hand over the ejection port, I'll agree not good. In point of fact it maight even exacerbate the detonation problem by preventing the round from ejecting.

However, flipping and catching is wrong. It is showboating. You want to flip and let it hit the ground, no problem, you start trying to catch it, sooner or later you are sweeping or breaking the 180. Round goes up, you are paying attention to the round in the air, not to what you are doing.

As for holding the gun up by your shoulder as you ULSC so the RO can see it, I know a few that do that and it irks me as much if not more than the flippers. Let us look at all that is wrong there, gun right up by face at a time when there is a potential for a detonation? Sorry, eyes and ears might be on, but I'd still rather not have a det there.

Why can't we just stop, Unload, Show Clear, hammer down (another thing that ticks me off, and hoster?

Yeah Hammer Down, Point the freaking gun at the backstop, hold it like it is gonna go BANG when you pull the trigger and pull it! Yeah, one of these days the gun will go BANG. if you are holding it up over your shoulder as described in the earlier post and it does go BANG, you probably won't do it again. Yeah, I have seen a few people do an ULSC and BANG, DQ.

ULSC IS NOT A TIME EVENT!

But hey, to each their own.

Jim

[JThompson]

Just because someone flips and catches does NOT mean they are showing off. I learned it and did it from practicing thousands of rounds on a cold range. I unload after every round and that can be 60-70 times in one practice session. Now I don't know about you skinny guys, but when I have my rig on it's a bitch to bend over that many times, plus all the target resets. It is a practical thing and nobody can prove anyway is "safer" than another. The amount of force you rack the slide with can be a factor, but what is more likely is the extractor tension and how it holds the bullet when removed from the chamber.

I disagree with John on long ejectors, what lights them off are narrow or sharp ones. Mine is so large as to be about the same diameter as the primer. It's those little pointed ejectors that set the things off. Fast matters some but less than extractor shape. I

As to the CRO/RO being right there, unless I forget, I pull the slide back slowly and dribble the round out with the port away from us.

Edited February 1, 2010 by JThompson

[badchad]

Second; and this is my opinion, I would classify the rack and catch in the air as USGH and DQ your butt if it were my call.

So your going to DQ Michael Voigt? I'd like to be there for that.

[badchad]

Here ya go catch the bullet in the air.

So if I grab the back of my slide with my left hand, slingshot style, push the gun forward with my right and then catch the already ejected round with my left a half second later. How could that possibly happen?

[Chills1994]

Jim Norman also wrote:

As for holding the gun up by your shoulder as you ULSC so the RO can see it, I know a few that do that and it irks me as much if not more than the flippers. Let us look at all that is wrong there, gun right up by face at a time when there is a potential for a detonation? Sorry, eyes and ears might be on, but I'd still rather not have a det there.

DISCLAIMER: I still have to do another perusal of the rulebook but as my understanding of how USPSA does things, the onus to have a clear gun is on the shooter. Actually, it is my perception of USPSA that the shooter is responsible and accountable at all times for the condition/status/location of his firearm and ammunition. The RO is not required to look into the chamber to visibly confirm that the gun is empty. That is why the command is "IIIIFFFFF??? Clear, hammer down, holster."

Said another way....the RO is not giving permission for the shooter to let the slide go forward and then to drop the hammer.

Therefore it's my opinion that shooter's don't have to hold the gun up by their shoulders or faces to actually show an empty chamber.

I guess if USPSA wanted to shift the responsibility back onto the RO, then the command would be re-written like this: "IFFF!!! you are fnished, unload, and show me an empty chamber." to be more specific.

[wide45]

Jim Norman also wrote:

As for holding the gun up by your shoulder as you ULSC so the RO can see it, I know a few that do that and it irks me as much if not more than the flippers. Let us look at all that is wrong there, gun right up by face at a time when there is a potential for a detonation? Sorry, eyes and ears might be on, but I'd still rather not have a det there.

DISCLAIMER: I still have to do another perusal of the rulebook but as my understanding of how USPSA does things, the onus to have a clear gun is on the shooter. Actually, it is my perception of USPSA that the shooter is responsible and accountable at all times for the condition/status/location of his firearm and ammunition. The RO is not required to look into the chamber to visibly confirm that the gun is empty. That is why the command is "IIIIFFFFF??? Clear, hammer down, holster."

Said another way....the RO is not giving permission for the shooter to let the slide go forward and then to drop the hammer.

Therefore it's my opinion that shooter's don't have to hold the gun up by their shoulders or faces to actually show an empty chamber.

I guess if USPSA wanted to shift the responsibility back onto the RO, then the command would be re-written like this: "IFFF!!! you are fnished, unload, and show me an empty chamber." to be more specific.

What gives you the idea that the RO is not required to look? They just are not held responsible for what they see.

8.3.6 requires you to show an empty chamber.

Edited February 1, 2010 by wide45

[Chills1994]

That's why I put the text in red.

Rule 8.3.6 reads like this:

8.3.6 “If You Are Finished, Unload And Show Clear” – If the competitor has

finished shooting, he must lower his handgun and present it for inspection

by the Range Officer with the muzzle pointed down range, magazine

removed, slide locked or held open, and chamber empty.

Revolvers must be presented with the cylinder swung out and empty.

8.3.6.1 When conducting Standard Exercises, Range Officials may

[bdpaz]

...than it does to unload the gun the normal way...

Regards,

John Amidon'

So what is "the normal way"?

[flack jacket]

Ok, looks like it is a very volatile subject.

I appreciate all the input and thoughts.

Please help me why this thread has points stating ULSC is "timed" event???

I can also see the act of the rack and catch can be showboating. Granted, I have seen some shooters at my club almost help the live cartridge out of the chamber by almost tossing the pistol upward. Now that, is unsafe due to not pointing the pistol in a safe direction.

If the shooter is:

right handed

points downrange, safely

cants or rotates pistol 90 degrees to left so the grip is parallel to ground.

Smartly racks the slide with opposite,left, hand and live round travels upward...

Left hand releases slide and strong hand STILL pointed safely downrange and not moving.

Catch the live round . then Pull the slide back again to present RO "clear".

Where in this process, with given unsafe gun handling rules, is Unsafe?

Sorry to keep drilling, but I don't see actually rule breaking yet. I ask because I help run a monthly match and I want to be able to offer reasoning and actual rule infraction vs. Opinion.

The live round detonation while clearing is plenty of reason for me not to do it, I can see where this act still falls within the gray areas of the rules

Thanks

Edited February 1, 2010 by flack jacket

[wide45]

It is not a grey area!

Black and white. There is no rule about how the competitor gets the live round out of the chamber.

Us RO's don't want the gun exploding in our faces. You can help.

[Joe4d]

See post 25 by Seth, John Amidon's reply is a the ruling you can quote if the issue comes up.

[Chris Christian]

In order to properly propel the round into the air for the shooter to catch it (assuming a right handed shooter) the gun must be canted 90 degrees to the left with the ejection port facing upward. The slide must then be racked vigorously enough to send the live cartridge into the air. Should a kaboom occur due to the round vigorously impacting the ejector as a result of the vigorous slide manipulation, both the shooter and the RO are staring at it from an intimate distance. No thanks! IMHO it's a stupid show off move that has the potential to place both the shooter and the RO at an unnecessary risk of injury, and I really don't care where the muzzle is pointing. The muzzle direction isn't the issue in this situation.

Chris Christian

[Skizeks]

I was a CRO at an area match. Shooter came through my stage did way better than they expected to. When it came time to show clear, in thier excitment of the moment they tried to do the flip thing and catch it. Didn't work droped the round and went to pick it up.

Bad news for the shooter. When he went to pick up his round he swept himself, the RO's, the gallery(you new he got the gallery because they all had that OH Sh-- look)and broke the 180.

Big time DQ!!

All because he saw some other shooter do it and thought it looked cool.

[Flyin40]

There are several things we know for sure.......

1. A round can detonate when racking the slide quickly

2. A round can detonate when racking the slide slowly

3. A round can detonate when racking the slide in super slow motion

4. A round can detonate when racking and then catching the round

5. A round can detonate when hitting the ground from any of the above ways of racking the slide

I'm sure I missed one. Point is no matter how you unload there is a chance of detonation. One way is not safer than the other, it may be someones opinion that it is safer but thats all it is.

Uspsa is not a religion.........

Flyin

[Jim Norman]

Time for a simple poll?

What are your feelings on the Unload portion of ULSC?

A- Flip and catch Safe?

B- Flip and catch Unsafe?

Part two:

A- If you answered unsafe above should the shooter be DQ'd?

B- If you answered unsafe above, since there is not a specific prohibition on Flip & Catch, then there is no penalty, I'll just stand back a bt to watch.

This is a simple poll with two parts. Yes there are other ways to ULSC, this poll does not address them. If anyone wants to design a more in depth poll please feel free. maybe we can do this for each method.

Comments? Suggestions? I'll give it a day and post the questions as writen unless I hear different.

Jim

Edited February 2, 2010 by Jim Norman

[Supermoto]

I don't do the flip and catch because end up dropping the slide hard on an empty chamber. I pull back the slide slowly and let the round either flop on to my trigger finger or hit the round.

I don't care what others do. the flip and catch can be done safely or dangerously, just like everything else. It depends on the execution

[badchad]

Time for a simple poll?

What are your feelings on the Unload portion of ULSC?

A- Flip and catch Safe?

B- Flip and catch Unsafe?

This part at least should be more a matter of fact and experiences rather than feelings. Better questions would be, for those who have witnessed a detonation during ULSC, was it racking the slide fast or slow? Then was the hand over the ejection port or not? Was it a flip and catch, a slow grab over or under the slide, or a drop to the ground? Then what were the injuries to the shooter and RO?

[badchad]

In order to properly propel the round into the air for the shooter to catch it (assuming a right handed shooter) the gun must be canted 90 degrees to the left with the ejection port facing upward. The slide must then be racked vigorously enough to send the live cartridge into the air. Should a kaboom occur due to the round vigorously impacting the ejector as a result of the vigorous slide manipulation, both the shooter and the RO are staring at it from an intimate distance.

From what direction and what distance are the RO and shooter staring at the gun when it's held upright? If anything I think the RO, at least, is safer with the gun tilted to the left.

[Flyin40]

Time for a simple poll?

What are your feelings on the Unload portion of ULSC?

A- Flip and catch Safe?

B- Flip and catch Unsafe?

Part two:

A- If you answered unsafe above should the shooter be DQ'd?

B- If you answered unsafe above, since there is not a specific prohibition on Flip & Catch, then there is no penalty, I'll just stand back a bt to watch.

This is a simple poll with two parts. Yes there are other ways to ULSC, this poll does not address them. If anyone wants to design a more in depth poll please feel free. maybe we can do this for each method.

Comments? Suggestions? I'll give it a day and post the questions as writen unless I hear different.

Jim

I say we do the same thing that was done in these other exact same threads..

here...

and here

Flyin