Unload and show clear!

[badchad]

Here's how Vince worded his poll.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15537

And his conclusion.

[Nik Habicht]

I dont like that response from Amidon . Not saying I agree or disagree I just dont think official rulings should waste ink or pixels on verbs like frown, discourage, should, He does clarrify and make the point that it isnt against the rules. He should have left it at that. Do Donot, Can Cant, please leave out the open ended non committal verbs.

Here ya go catch the bullet in the air.

It's not an official interpretation, just his opinion.....

He doesn't issue interpretations for every question posed....

[Nik Habicht]

Rounds have detonated when hitting the ground and catching the primer just right. Seen several post on the Enos forums about it.

I'd love to know how far the shrapnel flies from that event....

I'm thinking I'd rather catch some in the ankle/leg than the neck or face....

I'm not going to tell a guy how to unload and show clear but as an RO I'm not sticking my face up there as the round is ejecting out. Its pretty easy to do without causing any problems. I just say "Unload"....with a pause before saying the rest.

Flyin

+1....

[Nik Habicht]

Second; and this is my opinion, I would classify the rack and catch in the air as USGH and DQ your butt if it were my call.

So your going to DQ Michael Voigt? I'd like to be there for that.

I can guarantee that Jim will make an identical call in any situation whether you, I, Mike Voight, or John Amidon are the shooter.....

....in my case he'll bust my chops mercilessly afterwards....

[Flexmoney]

Rounds have detonated when hitting the ground and catching the primer just right. Seen several post on the Enos forums about it.

I'd love to know how far the shrapnel flies from that event....

I'm thinking I'd rather catch some in the ankle/leg than the neck or face....

- I had a round cook off right exactly between my feet. I was working to beat down a little grass fire that had started to spread when an over-full burn barrel dumped some fuel on the ground around it. I was wearing shorts and [tactical*] sandals. I took a good bit of shrapnel. I don't think anything above the knee. The anvil from the primer was sticking out of my right knee. The biggest damage was on the flat of my left shin, where...what I assume was the bullet...impacted. It gashed the skin open and bleed pretty good, but that was about it. [*blood ran into my sandals and made them a bit squishy...thus the "tactical sandals ]

- We had another shooter here in Ohio at the end of last year that had an accident. I believe his gun jammed and he was working to clear it and had an ejector fire. He took shrapnel to the neck. EMT's came and didn't want to transport him by ground due to the closeness of the wounds/shrapnel to the pipes in the neck. So, he got to ride in the helicopter.

- I saw another shooter take a handful of shrapnel when he had his hand over the ejection port during an ejector fire.

- I know of a top GM Limited shooter from W.PA that took some serious shrapnel in the hand from an ejector fire.

----------------------------------

It takes energy to set a round off. I don't want my hand or face near the ejector port. I am OK with a round if it goes off on the ground.

I know it happens (BE had a story, maybe Jake too?) but I have never seen a round go off from hitting the ground. I HAVE seen a number of shooters that have had the nose bullet hang up on the front of the ejection port. When it happens, the round is wedged right perfect to push the primer into the ejector.

[Jim Norman]

I am thinking here that any racking out of a round COULD be dangerous, so I propose that at ULSC we record the time, have the shooter remove the mag and FIRE the last round.

OK, humor mode off

Jim

[LPatterson]

I thought the poll by Vince Pinto (shame he isn't around anymore) showed that most people don't care how the gun is cleared.

As the RO I am probably not going to be close enough (I am old & slow) to catch any shrapnel no matter how you clear your gun but even though the rule doesn't require it I DO want to see an empty chamber. So if you do a really quick clear do not be suprised to hear me say "SHOW ME CLEAR".

As the shooter I don't do it any more after my gunsmith told that if I continued to do that that I should look for a different gunsmith the next time I wanted a trigger job.

This is supposed to be a free style sport so why are so many people wanting other people to only do it their way. You want to drop the mag and fire the last round I don't care because time stops with the last shot. And NO I am not going to go back and check the timer.

If I had my way every one would have to shoot a single stack .45 or .45 revolver.

[CHA-LEE]

I think a large contributor to the unload and show clear kaboom probability are the primers used. If you are using super soft primers there is going to be more of a probability of it detonating while racking the slide verses using harder primers. This is why I use CCI primers, because they are fairly hard and are less prone to detonating with normal handling. Then there is the aspect of verifying that your pistol is in proper functioning order to not allow the primer to be struck when manually racking a round out. Both of these are responsibilities of the shooter, no one else.

To me, the flip and catch style of unloading the pistol is a waste of time and has more chance of inducing an unsafe situation. I have seen a few shooters sweep themselves as they try to catch the flipped out round. Then they have to hold the slide back a second time to show the RO a clear chamber.

I prefer to angle the gun to the left and slowly rack out the round in my weak hand then continue to hold the slide back for the RO. All of this done while holding the gun up and to the right so the RO can watch the whole process and more importantly its not right under my face. Is this better or worse than the next guy? Who knows and who cares? It is something I feel safe with doing given the choice of equipment I am using.

When its all said and done its all about choice. If a shooter chooses to use super soft primers and holds his hand over the chamber as he racks out the round then if it goes off its an unsafe condition he created. The same could be said for flipping the round out to catch it and risking a muzzle sweep safety issue.

[badchad]

I’ve never seen a detonation unloading a gun yet. I know one guy who said he did it couple months ago and said he was racking the slide slowly with no attempt to catch the round. So reading all the responses here and the other linked threads it seems to me that, it’s more of a gun issue, long rounds with oversized extractors, than a technique issue. But also:

• If you rack the slide fast during ULSC could have a detonation.

• If you rack the slide slow you could have a detonation, and according to most eyewitness reports this is how it usually happens. Maybe the slower slide motion gives the bullet less rearward momentum/more time to fall off the extractor.

• If you let the round hit the ground you could have a detonation, whether the slide is racked fast or slow.

• If you pick up your round from the ground you might pick up someone else’s load that look like yours.

• If you pick up a round from the ground it might be the straw that herniates a lumbar disc.

• If you hold the gun upright and rack fast or slow the RO might put his hand out and catch the round, and he’ll end up with a fist full of brass.

• If you cover the ejection port with your hand, then you might be saving the RO and taking one for the team, in your hand at close range.

• If you turn your gun to the left (like you do in a flip and catch) you point the ejection port away from the RO keeping him relatively safe and preventing him from doing something foolish (like putting his hand over your ejection port).

• If you catch the round yourself the cartridge lands in your nice soft hand where it can’t detonate against the ground.

• If the round does detonate as you try to showboat, at least you are holding the gun further from your own head and body than you would likely be doing would with a nice slow drop to the side.

So it seems to me that if anything a fast rack ejects the round every bit, if not more safely from the gun, if the round goes off the gun is further from your face, chest and hand, and certainly angled in a safer direction with respect to the RO, and you have significantly less risk of a discharge due to the round hitting the ground. So all and all I think it’s safer in a lot of ways.

For the record, I started one of the threads linked above and I was doing the strong hand grab from the side as in the Leatham video (which isn’t how he really does it BTW) at the time, but I switched to my flip and catch method cause I thought it was safer.

I think it’s kind of like the race holster. It looks worse to outsiders than it is and gives a visceral, if unreasonable, “I don’t like that” reaction to some.

[xsniper]

I’ve never seen a detonation unloading a gun yet. I know one guy who said he did it couple months ago and said he was racking the slide slowly with no attempt to catch the round. So reading all the responses here and the other linked threads it seems to me that, it’s more of a gun issue, long rounds with oversized extractors, than a technique issue. But also:

• If you rack the slide fast during ULSC could have a detonation.

• If you rack the slide slow you could have a detonation, and according to most eyewitness reports this is how it usually happens. Maybe the slower slide motion gives the bullet less rearward momentum/more time to fall off the extractor.

• If you let the round hit the ground you could have a detonation, whether the slide is racked fast or slow.

• If you pick up your round from the ground you might pick up someone else’s load that look like yours.

• If you pick up a round from the ground it might be the straw that herniates a lumbar disc.

• If you hold the gun upright and rack fast or slow the RO might put his hand out and catch the round, and he’ll end up with a fist full of brass.

• If you cover the ejection port with your hand, then you might be saving the RO and taking one for the team, in your hand at close range.

• If you turn your gun to the left (like you do in a flip and catch) you point the ejection port away from the RO keeping him relatively safe and preventing him from doing something foolish (like putting his hand over your ejection port).

• If you catch the round yourself the cartridge lands in your nice soft hand where it can’t detonate against the ground.

• If the round does detonate as you try to showboat, at least you are holding the gun further from your own head and body than you would likely be doing would with a nice slow drop to the side.

So it seems to me that if anything a fast rack ejects the round every bit, if not more safely from the gun, if the round goes off the gun is further from your face, chest and hand, and certainly angled in a safer direction with respect to the RO, and you have significantly less risk of a discharge due to the round hitting the ground. So all and all I think it’s safer in a lot of ways.

For the record, I started one of the threads linked above and I was doing the strong hand grab from the side as in the Leatham video (which isn’t how he really does it BTW) at the time, but I switched to my flip and catch method cause I thought it was safer.

I think it’s kind of like the race holster. It looks worse to outsiders than it is and gives a visceral, if unreasonable, “I don’t like that” reaction to some.

I think the idea of the last two sentences is a huge part of the issue.

[BlackSabbath]

I've been shooting USPSA since 1989. I hope this practice is outlawed in the rules before someone is seriously injured. The liabilty far outwieghs the benefit of allowing this to continue.

[bdpaz]

I'm still not clear on what is dangerous about the flip and catch. And if it is risky, what is the "correct" procedure?

I've lost track of all the comments but we have had reliable reports of detonations when slowly racking the slide and when a live round hits the ground. I'm not sure if there was a confirmed incident when quickly racking the slide. As for the flip and catch, I believe there was a post of someone sweeping the crowd trying to pick up a live round that he didn't catch but I'm not sure that any of the other methods are foolproof either.

So for those opposed to the flip and catch - what specifically is the problem with it:

Rotating the gun so the ejection port is up?

Racking the slide quickly?

Catching the live round?

And what do you feel is the proper method?

[juan]

I missed something

at what point does catching a flying round detonate.

1 when it hits the skin

2 or in the air

[bbbean]

Just how many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin?

[lcs]

Not quite sure where the poster got the perception that detonations always happen when racking the slide slow at ULSC. Most people (and I've watched a lot being a RO/CRO)

(1) Drop the mag (some shooters put the mag in the pocket before racking the slide)

(2) Rack the slide (and continue holding the slide back until the round is clear) Some people rack the slide hard enough to "eject' the round to the ground, some rack the slide slow enough so the round just kind of dribbles out into their weak hand.

(3) Let round drop to ground or fall out in weak hand depending on technique.

To "Flip N Catch" one needs to rack the slide with enough force to eject the round into the air and at the same time flip the gun to add a little more force while letting the slide go.

The problem with "Flip N Catch" is you are racking the slide with a live round in the extractor and you are letting the slide go. IF the round does not EJECT cleanly and gets trapped in the ejection chamber the slide slams on the live round which can cause the round to detonate while not in the barrel.

I don't think "Flip N Catch" is showmanship. I have seen many shooters almost DQ themselves because the round did not go in the direction anticipated and the shooter almost swept himself trying to catch the round. I do know of other ROs who have had to DQ shooters for sweeping themselves while trying to catch a live round in the air.

There is nothing in the rule book for now to prevent you from trying "Flip N Catch", but I for one hope there is a rule to stop it in the future.

Those posters who like to "Flip N Catch"----Can you name one common sense reason to "Flip N Catch" ?

[Corey]

i think the proponents of the Flip-n-Catch A) dont want to bend over to pick up the round B)dont want the round hitting the ground, deforming it in some weird way, getting dirt on it, and then being re-inserted into th magazine and eventually the gun.

I personally see nothing wrong with F-n-C method and alot of times do it myself while at home (unloading a gun, for various reasons). I honestly cannot see why its dangerous or how it would be more likely to fire an ejected round. If anything, the slow method would be more dangerous to me-your hand is by covering or near the port, the round has a chance to hit more metal ans it slowly bounces around and out of the gun. Id rather have the round come flying out and get away from everything that would set it off.

That being said, it seems like a lot of people dont care for it and thus at matches, i grab the back of the slide, give it a yank, let the round fall to ground, show the empty chamber, click holster. ive got no problem picking up a round off the ground and putting in my pocket or tossing in my range bag.

[badchad]

Not quite sure where the poster got the perception that detonations always happen when racking the slide slow at ULSC. Most people (and I've watched a lot being a RO/CRO)

Nobody said that. It's just that whenever these threads occur, when people say they have witnessed said discharge, it has mostly been with something other than a flip and catch.

To "Flip N Catch" one needs to rack the slide with enough force to eject the round into the air and at the same time flip the gun to add a little more force while letting the slide go.

FTR, my Shadow only requires that I sharply pull back the slide. I don't need to flip the gun up.

The problem with "Flip N Catch" is you are racking the slide with a live round in the extractor and you are letting the slide go. IF the round does not EJECT cleanly and gets trapped in the ejection chamber the slide slams on the live round which can cause the round to detonate while not in the barrel.

I can't say I've ever had a FTE during my flip and catch but I suppose it's possible, and maybe a discharge could occur this way but based on reports I've heard/read, it does not seen anymore likely than when you do it the slow way and certainly (at least the way I do it) the gun is held in a more favorable position with regards to both myself and the RO if an discharge does occur.

I do know of other ROs who have had to DQ shooters for sweeping themselves while trying to catch a live round in the air.

And so they should.

Those posters who like to "Flip N Catch"----Can you name one common sense reason to "Flip N Catch" ?

I named several in post #59. Another is I don't like to bend over and dig in the dirt anymore than I have to. And another is I like showmanship. Yet another is I take a certain pleasure in irking the irrationally indignant. Maybe I’ll practice catching the round behind my back, cause that would be cool.

[DyNo!]

I used to be a flip catcher but after witnessing a lot blood running down Jamie McG's face several years ago I've changed my ways.

[Nik Habicht]

I choose not to flip and catch for these reasons:

There's a risk of a match dq if any RO perceives that I swept myself in the execution. Since a number of ROs stand well back, that potentially changes their viewing angle, and I hate being dq'd....

Risk of a detonation is probably small in probability terms --- I've never seen one first hand.

Assuming that there's a detonation, and shrapnel nicks or severs an artery, I like survivability odds much better for a ground detonation (and likely below the knee injury) than I do an ejection port detonation and neck injury.....

If I'm RO ing and you choose to flip and catch, I'll be standing a few feet away....

[Chris Christian]

It would be nice if they would tell the SO/RO in advance that they are going to show off and do it. That would give us a chance to back up a bit. Unfortunatly, I've never received advance warning, so I'm left standing there a couple feet to the shooter's strong side and have just become a "shrapnel magnet" if the shooter's vigorous ejection pops a primer. There are some inherent hazards to being a SO/RO, but I fail to see the need for adding unnessary ones.

Chris Christian

[Aristotle]

As a NW section representative, I am sent monthly updates on DQ's and such incidents through out our section. The 2 big leading issues we have, are AD's and 180's.

The number 1 culprit for having an AD, is loading/reloading a loaded firearm. With that type of mentality, I suppose we can blame every shooter we've seen reload a "loaded" weapon. I learned how to reload watching other shooters.

So we should propose, disallowing loading/reloading a loaded firearm, far more incidents of an AD have occurred, than a primer getting popped off from an extraction.

The other big issue is 180. I propose we no longer allow movement while engaging a target. When too many showboats like Tilley and Leatham go running around shooting targets, too many newer shooters may attempt this, and this also occurs far too frequently.

The fact that we restrict actions of other shooters based on our "own" limitations and a handful of isolated incidents, is as ridiculous as the above proposals.

Action shooting in itself is "not for everyone". And we place responsibility on our shooters, as we should. I've DQ'd from both incidents, yet I don't blame watching other shooters reload and shoot on the move.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Aristotle

[Supermoto]

The number 1 culprit for having an AD, is loading/reloading a loaded firearm. With that type of mentality, I suppose we can blame every shooter we've seen reload a "loaded" weapon. I learned how to reload watching other shooters.

So we should propose, disallowing loading/reloading a loaded firearm, far more incidents of an AD have occurred, than a primer getting popped off from an extraction.

The other big issue is 180. I propose we no longer allow movement while engaging a target. When too many showboats like Tilley and Leatham go running around shooting targets, too many newer shooters may attempt this, and this also occurs far too frequently.

Both shooting on the move and reloading a loaded gun are actions that are need to be successful at this game, The flip and catch is not

[Aristotle]

The number 1 culprit for having an AD, is loading/reloading a loaded firearm. With that type of mentality, I suppose we can blame every shooter we've seen reload a "loaded" weapon. I learned how to reload watching other shooters.

So we should propose, disallowing loading/reloading a loaded firearm, far more incidents of an AD have occurred, than a primer getting popped off from an extraction.

The other big issue is 180. I propose we no longer allow movement while engaging a target. When too many showboats like Tilley and Leatham go running around shooting targets, too many newer shooters may attempt this, and this also occurs far too frequently.

Both shooting on the move and reloading a loaded gun are actions that are need to be successful at this game, The flip and catch is not

I have never read any USPSA Written stage briefing where it specified that I must shoot on the move nor has it stated that I must use a speed reload.

You can safely shoot any COF by shooting and reloading completely static.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Aristotle

[Supermoto]

You will never win a nationals if you can't do either, you certainly can win a Nats by not doing the flip and catch. It off the the clock, it has nothing to do with winning or shooting the stage. I don't care that you do it, but don't compare it to actual shooting skills

[Aristotle]

I think what I heard was, we should restrict certain "unnecessary" actions based on what the majority of shooters are unable/uncapable of doing safely a majority of the time.

Neither shooting on the move, nor speed reloading is a "necessary" action and is the leading culprit to two of the most common "unsafe" things that occur at a match.

More people DQ because they see people of higher skill sets doing these things. We should not promote it since it happens so frequently.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Aristotle