Stage Design why do you do this

[colt22man]

I don't do prone or kneeling in my stage design. Many older fellas shoot our match's and once down it takes 5-10 seconds for them to get up. It's hard on thier knees and I don't want them sweeping an arm or hand attempting to get up. I have 100's of stage designs that I've used and receive great feedback on the stages and none of them require prone or kneeling target engagement.

[Team Amish 1]

I noticed that most local matches shy away from a lot of the "more technical features" in their stages.

A lot is spray 'n' prey, with the occasional port, door, or no-shoot/hardcover sprinkled in.

Now don't get me wrong, I do not run a match, therefore it's easy to make suggestions, I realize that.

Nonetheless, I'd like to see more

* long shots at 25yards and way past that,

* kneeling/prone/awkward positions,

* carrying things around,

* SH/WH shooting,

* retreat stages,

* strange start positions (sitting, lying down, empty gun, gun in box, etc.).

One could do all this in practice sessions, true, but for quite a few competitors, the local matches are the practice sessions, either due to time, money or lack of a range. Just my $0.02.

[chefcs5]

Now don't get me wrong, I do not run a match, therefore it's easy to make suggestions, I realize that.

Nonetheless, I'd like to see more

* long shots at 25yards and way past that,

* kneeling/prone/awkward positions,

* carrying things around,

* SH/WH shooting,

* retreat stages,

* strange start positions (sitting, lying down, empty gun, gun in box, etc.).

I like a lot of the same things as you I dont however do many of those and ill explain why

* long shots at 25yards and way past that, Simply dont have the room but on 1 bay,and most of our shooters are newer or just weekend guys who could never make those shots. id say well over hlaf of our shooters are u/d clases.I do use them just not frequently

* kneeling/prone/awkward positions, a lot of older/bigger shooters that have a hard time getting up. again I use them, kneeling more than prone but not often

* carrying things around,These I like and use often from ammo cans to potatoes to milk jugs. we do have 2 shooters who due to surgerys can shoot while carrying or shoot 1 handed so we give them a procedural to start and make them carry the item to the end then come back and shoot or other modifications they are always happy to do so and all other shooters agree it to be about the same

* SH/WH shooting,These I do use often I normally do 1 classifier 2 long and 2 meduim courses and then 1 "work on it" stage I use a lot of sh/wh and reloads on these as the re-enforece good shooting

* retreat stages,One of my favs but at the local level with newer shooters and a lot of times less than experienced ro's it can get dangerous so I tend to only do 1 or 2 a year

* strange start positions (sitting, lying down, empty gun, gun in box, etc.).Also love these I try to incorporate either a sitting, laying or empty start into 75% of all of our matches! again not every one though as its so hard for some of our older/bigger shooters to get up from some of them.

I think its just trying to make stages that are easy enough for new shooters and fun for A++ shooters is hard. A lot of guys get into a stage rut and they all seem to look the same and feel the same. Ask for other shooters to design stages and turn them in. I also like to feature stages from area/nats from the previous year. If it is a good stage Ill use it an it gives those a chance to who cant make it to those bigger matches a chance to shoot some of those stages.

As to on topic. I dont see how adding in kneeling or prone is taking the easy way out, thats like saying adding no shoots or hard cover or distance shots is taking the easy way to make tings harder. taking the easy way would be all stand and shoot stages with little or no build. I know other Md's like me take pride in thier stages and do this job for free so lets help them out and if you like a stage tell them. It rocks when an mclass guy come up and says"man stage 6 over there rocked, I had to pick up a mike and changed my whole plan" its awsome!

If you dont like them just adding prone to a stage.. make some stages the software is free and easy to use or just hand draw it! turn it in. If it fits the rules and is safe and your club has those props I bet they will run it..If not send it to me I will!!

[Flexmoney]

I always thought it would be cool to be able to offer up two matches per month....one a being more athletic in nature.

[Mark R]

If I ever add kneeling or prone to a stage, I try to make it the last shooting position on the stage. Then after the shooter is done, they can take their time getting up, showing clear and holstering the pistol in a safer manner.

Also like to have stages that help train the shooters. when I first started match directing a few years ago, I noticed that a lot of shooters would stop to shoot. I then designed stages that an open area to shoot a few targets between shooting areas...almost enforcing shooters to shoot on the move if they wanted a better time. Now most of our seasoned shooters are proficient at shooting while on the move. But practice and more practice helped them along.

[chefcs5]

I always thought it would be cool to be able to offer up two matches per month....one a being more athletic in nature.

Great Idea!

[Team Amish 1]

chefcs5, the way you explain it makes a lot of sense.

Around here, brandnew shooters are a little rarer and just giving them a special briefing and pointers beforehand usually gets them through a tricky stage well. Granted, if we had more than one new shooter a month, we'd have to tone it down a little, too.

It sounds like you're putting together some impressive matches, though.

Mark R, I do have a different point of view on kneeling/prone. While starting from a kneeling or prone position can be a pain (literally) for heavier or older shooters, I don't think it's necessary to make it the last position by design.

We had an interesting discussion during last weekend's match when the MD threw his hands up and said, "He's not shooting it the way I had planned the stage. I didn't think of that.'. A few guys told him that that's what makes a good stage, that you have several different options to shoot it, depending on skill level, division, physical restriction, etc. In other words, if it's advantageous for the competitor to end up in the prone position, he can break down the stage accordingly. If he sees an advantage to kneel and then get up to finish somewhere else, great. I personally like stages that make you think and weigh options.

[Mark R]

Mark R, I do have a different point of view on kneeling/prone. While starting from a kneeling or prone position can be a pain (literally) for heavier or older shooters, I don't think it's necessary to make it the last position by design.

We had an interesting discussion during last weekend's match when the MD threw his hands up and said, "He's not shooting it the way I had planned the stage. I didn't think of that.'. A few guys told him that that's what makes a good stage, that you have several different options to shoot it, depending on skill level, division, physical restriction, etc. In other words, if it's advantageous for the competitor to end up in the prone position, he can break down the stage accordingly. If he sees an advantage to kneel and then get up to finish somewhere else, great. I personally like stages that make you think and weigh options.

I agree...I was just trying to say that I like to put the kneeling/prone position at the end for those who like to use it as the last effort of the stage...not to say you can't shoot prone and get up to continue. After all...it is freestyle.

[professor]

Many clubs do not have walls and ports that will allow them to set up a stage with all positions encountered at a large match.

So to help the club shooters develop, stages are set with written in positions, including Left and right hand only.

...

If you're going to require single hand shooting, write it up as "Strong Hand Only" and "Weak Hand Only" [sHO, WHO]. If you specify "Right Hand only" and "Left Hand Only" you are giving a specific advantage to a shooter who is normally Right or Left handed, as the case might be. SHO and WHO should present a similar degree of difficulty regardless of the natural "hand" of each shooter.

Also, keep in mind that the rules now restrict SHO and WHO to end of a COF [or a string, as the case might be], and you are limited to 6 required shots in those situations.

HOWEVER, you can force a shooter into shooting single-handed by making them carry an object, or be holding a rope, holding open a window, etc. In which case, there is no limit on the number of targets that might have to be engaged.

Make it too many rounds, however, and you'll have somebody run the length of the course to deposit the carried object [as per stage requirements] and then back up through the course firing freestyle at all those targets the other people engaged one-handed.

Edited February 18, 2011 by professor

[Skydiver]

HOWEVER, you can force a shooter into shooting single-handed by making them carry an object, or be holding a rope, holding open a window, etc. In which case, there is no limit on the number of targets that might have to be engaged.

Make it too many rounds, however, and you'll have somebody run the length of the course to deposit the carried object [as per stage requirements] and then back up through the course firing freestyle at all those targets the other people engaged one-handed.

I agree. :-) There was a stage last year at a local match where challenge was not only to carry the object downrange, but also do the shooting from a raised platform. A shooter opted to run object downrange, then come back to the start of the course, get on the platform and then start shooting with both hands. I believe the time was a little longer, but hits were dramatically better.

[sperman]

Also, keep in mind that the rules now restrict SHO and WHO to end of a COF [or a string, as the case might be], and you are limited to 6 required shots in those situations.

You are not only limited to 6 shots, but the last 6 shots (the way I read the rules.)

1.1.5.4 Medium or Long courses of fire may stipulate the use of either strong or weak hand, provided that only one hand, either strong or weak, is specified for no more than the last six (6) shots required.

[lugnut]

Variety is the spice of life. I still don't like going prone in the rain/mud... unless it's the last stage.

[Supermoto]

I don't particularly like shooting prone. I don't mind when it is an option, like shooting 50 yards, given me the option to take the time to go prone vs standing and shooting. But to force it, I don't like that. Similar to forcing shooting strong or weak handed, design a creative way to entice shooters to shoot 1 handed, not force it. Saying there is a procedural for every shot fired until the item is place somewhere else is the same as forcing the person to shoot 1 handed. Make that penalty smaller and it opens options.

Also, just throwing a NS on a target is a lazy way of making a target more difficult.

Edited February 19, 2011 by Supermoto

[Coach]

Prone is one thing. Everyone should be able to do this provided they don't have to get up out of that position. Low ports that cannot be shot from prone I hate with a passion. It is not a shooting challenge but a flexibility challenge.

[Flexmoney]

Prone is one thing. Everyone should be able to do this provided they don't have to get up out of that position. Low ports that cannot be shot from prone I hate with a passion. It is not a shooting challenge but a flexibility challenge.

Right. Unless you are building something that resembles a real life obstacle...keep it about the shooting.

[Coach]

I always thought it would be cool to be able to offer up two matches per month....one a being more athletic in nature.

A special match that offers more athletic challenges would be cool once and a while.

[TWHaz]

After reading the post. I am lucky to live in Arizona, near Phoenix.Our Clubs use all types of props. Ports, swingers, stars, cars, helos, etc. Each match you may have long ranges standards, prone positions, run and gun, lots of no shoots, etc. I am amazed at what they put us through.Never the same. I will say most of the prone positions are set up to be the last position of a stage.

[Dillon b]

the physical stages are the funnest in my opinion. Its what i look forward to each match

[wchangose]

The OP would hate my matches. While there are certainly more, I consider practical shooting to have at least six key components that aren't readily found at the local public shooting range:

1. Weak hand

2. Strong hand only

3. Distance shots (25+ yds)

4. Prone

5. Kneeling

6. Targets that move (swingers, pop-ups, drop turners, etc.)

Our IDPA matches typically have six stages and I try to get at least four of them in each match. I agree with previous posters and usually make kneeling and/or prone the last position in the string so as to try and level the playing field.

My reasons for making these "hard stages" is that when you go to the big matches they're likely have all of these elements included, once you're used to shooting in these configurations you've added a skill that could be helpful in real life, and most important, it's fun!

[Vlad]

I always thought it would be cool to be able to offer up two matches per month....one a being more athletic in nature.

Kneeling and going prone are athletic now?

I know some people argue that stages should be only a shooting challenge, but that's a silly argument for wanting "easy" hoser stages and arguing against "track and field" stages. To my mind running hard for a good stretch and then getting hits on target or having to shoot from awkward/hard/unusual positions AND then getting back up and doing it some more is a shooting challenge and appropriate for the "P" in the name of the game,

Yes, I know its harder on older or heavier folks. I'm in the heavy camp, with a bad back. I'd like to grow the sport as much as the next guy, but at some point if your body is failing you maybe it is time to not worry about winning and just have fun and take it slower. Or ask the match director about applying rule 10.2.10, thats why it is there. Or maybe shoot Steel matches where those bad knees are not such a draw back. I'm sorry. I know it sucks, but as we age there are lots of things we can't do. We don't ask the ski resort guys to make slopes easier, the volleyball courts to lower the net, or NASCAR to make everyone drive 37mph with the right blinker on for 500 laps of turning left.

Of course, modern medicine did solve ONE problem, but this is a family forum, no?

[Jim Norman]

I'd like to see more

* long shots at 25yards and way past that,

* kneeling/prone/awkward positions,

* carrying things around,

* SH/WH shooting,

* retreat stages,

* strange start positions (sitting, lying down, empty gun, gun in box, etc.).

At our local clubs we seem to have a good mix of stages, we have Hosers and we have long shots, we kneel, we squat and occasionally we go prone. What we don't do, or try hard not to do is build a stage with multiple prone, or kneeling positions and if prone in particular is needed, we try to put it last. We, as many clubs do, have shooters from their teens and 20's all the way up to 60's and 70's with the vast majority probably from late 30's to late 50's. Physical challenges are fine and most of the time I am up for them, but we have to realize that vaulting an 8 foot wall, crawling through a 30 foot tunnel, running 50 yards to shoot one target, going kneeling or prone 3, 4, 5 or more times in one stage are going to cut into the number of shooters we have. So ironically will not having a series of physical challenges. The answer to this as with most everything in life is BALANCE. Too much physical challenge and we lose too many shooters, no challenges and we are arguably shooting Steel Challenge, PPC and Bullseye. Nothing wrong with any of those, but they are not us. So, go prone, at the last position or if needs be, one time in the middle, squat, but not multiple times, run, but don't make the match a foot race. There are plenty of other matches where the physical challenge is paramount to the match. Matches like the North American Tactical Challenge, NC Recon, Blue Ridge Mountain 3-gun, and I am sure quite a few others. What we really need at our matches is Balance.

I think that we do perhaps tend just a bit much to open targets and faster stages and we need tighter shots and longer shots. Vlad, Slav and the rest of you that design at OB, ignore that last bit, our stages are fine as they are.

Jim

[Jim Norman]

I'd like to see more

* long shots at 25yards and way past that,

* kneeling/prone/awkward positions,

* carrying things around,

* SH/WH shooting,

* retreat stages,

* strange start positions (sitting, lying down, empty gun, gun in box, etc.).

At our local clubs we seem to have a good mix of stages, we have Hosers and we have long shots, we kneel, we squat and occasionally we go prone. What we don't do, or try hard not to do is build a stage with multiple prone, or kneeling positions and if prone in particular is needed, we try to put it last. We, as many clubs do, have shooters from their teens and 20's all the way up to 60's and 70's with the vast majority probably from late 30's to late 50's. Physical challenges are fine and most of the time I am up for them, but we have to realize that vaulting an 8 foot wall, crawling through a 30 foot tunnel, running 50 yards to shoot one target, going kneeling or prone 3, 4, 5 or more times in one stage are going to cut into the number of shooters we have. So ironically will not having a series of physical challenges. The answer to this as with most everything in life is BALANCE. Too much physical challenge and we lose too many shooters, no challenges and we are arguably shooting Steel Challenge, PPC and Bullseye. Nothing wrong with any of those, but they are not us. So, go prone, at the last position or if needs be, one time in the middle, squat, but not multiple times, run, but don't make the match a foot race. There are plenty of other matches where the physical challenge is paramount to the match. Matches like the North American Tactical Challenge, NC Recon, Blue Ridge Mountain 3-gun, and I am sure quite a few others. What we really need at our matches is Balance.

I think that we do perhaps tend just a bit much to open targets and faster stages and we need tighter shots and longer shots. Vlad, Slav and the rest of you that design at OB, ignore that last bit, our stages are fine as they are.

Jim

[9mmalpha]

I'd like to see more

* long shots at 25yards and way past that,

* kneeling/prone/awkward positions,

* carrying things around,

* SH/WH shooting,

* retreat stages,

* strange start positions (sitting, lying down, empty gun, gun in box, etc.).

At our local clubs we seem to have a good mix of stages, we have Hosers and we have long shots, we kneel, we squat and occasionally we go prone. What we don't do, or try hard not to do is build a stage with multiple prone, or kneeling positions and if prone in particular is needed, we try to put it last. We, as many clubs do, have shooters from their teens and 20's all the way up to 60's and 70's with the vast majority probably from late 30's to late 50's. Physical challenges are fine and most of the time I am up for them, but we have to realize that vaulting an 8 foot wall, crawling through a 30 foot tunnel, running 50 yards to shoot one target, going kneeling or prone 3, 4, 5 or more times in one stage are going to cut into the number of shooters we have. So ironically will not having a series of physical challenges. The answer to this as with most everything in life is BALANCE. Too much physical challenge and we lose too many shooters, no challenges and we are arguably shooting Steel Challenge, PPC and Bullseye. Nothing wrong with any of those, but they are not us. So, go prone, at the last position or if needs be, one time in the middle, squat, but not multiple times, run, but don't make the match a foot race. There are plenty of other matches where the physical challenge is paramount to the match. Matches like the North American Tactical Challenge, NC Recon, Blue Ridge Mountain 3-gun, and I am sure quite a few others. What we really need at our matches is Balance.

I think that we do perhaps tend just a bit much to open targets and faster stages and we need tighter shots and longer shots. Vlad, Slav and the rest of you that design at OB, ignore that last bit, our stages are fine as they are.

Jim

Yep I like the way you set up matches in Old Bridge and long island ... its very well though.

[sslav]

I think that we do perhaps tend just a bit much to open targets and faster stages and we need tighter shots and longer shots. Vlad, Slav and the rest of you that design at OB, ignore that last bit, our stages are fine as they are.

Jim

Too late Jim.

[Gary J]

It's make a well rounded shooter in all positions I would think. It's like using a wedge in a bunker.