Instead of Closing ESR, Why not try...

[afoulk]

Here's a constructive set of suggestions I could use some help fleshing out...

Instead of closing ESR, why not try a different experiment?

At the nationals level, only recognize one revolver division or the other. Alternate divisions annually. One year ESR is recognized, the next year SSR is recognized. Let it be known that a certain number of slots are available for revolvers on a first come first served basis rather than by the points system.

Also at the nationals level, adopt minimum standards for number of competitors in master class before promotion to DM is available. Also, require candidates for DM to already hold Master classification.

At tier 3 or 4, promote certain matches as regional SSR or ESR championships. The division promoted would coincide with the division available at that year's nationals. The revo division not promoted as regional championship could be available or not, at the match director's discretion. It's probably a good idea to pick large matches in a limited number of regions that already have a good wheelgun turnout to promote as such. Carolina Cup is a good example of a match to try this with. This should be organized by HQ, not argued for among match directors.

At tier 2 and the remaining tier 3 and tier 4 matches, require recognition of all divisions. Change prize policies at these sanctioned matches to allow for match directors to reduce awards in divisions and classifications that have fewer than 5 participants. Fewer than 5 but more than 1 wins a printed certificate or better award at match director's discretion. Uncontested divisions/classifications can be awarded nothing or a "Last Place Div/Class" award also at match director's discretion.

At lower level matches, why not allow re-entry into a second division, so long as the second division is a revolver division. If both entries are revolver entries, only the first score would count for awards. If one division entry is a pistol division, it would be required to be shot first. This will maintain the integrity of the pistol division competition and possibly add competition in the revolver divisions.

I think this is a better way to consolidate and increase competition, without eliminating divisions.

[robertbank]

Way to logical. It would not require any new rules other than for Match Administration.

Most of our members only shoot Club matches so why not just leave well enough alone but then the egg is already broken, so lets see what the cook serves up. It maybe an omelette or a fried egg. More likely a horse looking remarkably like a one humped Camel. Either way a hump is involved.

[enemeth]

Now for some rule changes. These are not my original ideas but some things to think about. Since there use to be 5" barrels allowed in revolver and there always have been 5" barrels in IDPA, specifically in CDP, why not bring that back. I know 1911s have to fit in a box but thats the beauty of it, with revolvers they already don't have to fit, so one less rule to change. But seriously though, it may attract some new shooters to IDPA that used them ( note past tense) in USPSA. I personally don't have a 5" 625 so my bias is based on wanting to keep ESR and finding more competitors. If someone says there are not a lot of USPSA revolver shooters to attract I couldn't disagree, but every little bit helps.

One thing that did bring more revolver shooters out for USPSA was separating their Nationals and scheduling it while everyone is already in town for Single Stack. Maybe IDPA could do something like having the Back Up Gun Nationals and a National Revolver Match combimed but scheduled on two separate days so you can shoot both. At my club we had a revoler match on a off date for other matches in our area and more people than I would have imagined showed up that normally always shot semiautos.

Again if we are trying to expand participation and "get with the times", the handicap placed on seven and eight shot revolvers might be addressed since they come in both speedloader and moon clip flavors. They could be subject to power factor requirements or only shoot six instead of only load six. Neither of which is a perfect solution but may open some options for people that already have them.

[19852]

Your idea makes so much sense it guarantees it will never be adopted.

[8ring]

I've read Tactical Journal over the past year and had no inkling that the IDPA bosses were about to jettison ESR.

Why change any rule at all regarding ESR?

So there wasn't much participation ESR - so what? Did the few folks who showed up at matches with their 4" barrel 625s somehow detract from the shooting experience and enjoyment of the other participants? Did we fart, belch, or shout obscenities? Revolver shooters as a group are humble, self-effacing, easy to get along with, and easy to clean up after. Why do we get this treatment?

Sport shooting groups like IDPA should encourage wider participation - a "big tent" approach, if you will - rather than ostracizing those whose equipment was perfectly fine yesterday but suddenly became verboten today.

Was anyone on the so-called Tiger Team a revolver shooter?

By essentially banning the SW 625, IDPA also missed an opportunity to enlist those who found that the 6 shot 625 was no longer competitive in USPA. IDPA should have said that any revolver shooter with a USPSA classification could shoot the first 4 - 6 matches with a 5" barrel to see if they liked the sport and wanted to buy in. After that, the 625 shooters would have to go to a 4" barrel like the veteran ESR wheelgunners.

As a long-time USPA revolver shooter, I recently decided to modify one of my 625s to make it IDPA complaint. I bought the 4" barrel and a new cylinder (old cylinder worn out) and was about to send it to the gunsmith to set it up. Now I have 2 625s that are forbidden in IDPA and not competitive in USPA. I also have about 2,000 rounds of .45 acp reloads (230 RN moly coated bullets over N-310) that I may never get to use in competition.

I will write to our betters at IDPA headquarters and see what they say. If they tell me to take a hike, I probably will.

Chris

[jcc7x7]

No more money to HQ

No more big matches (by the way USPSA has one every weekend also)

They have outdone themselves with foolishness

I will continue to support my local club and shoot my 625 (which my local club says "Come and shoot, we'll have a good time and put you in the "Tiger Team Division"!

I figure that is where they put anybody who's gun doesn't line up with what Wilson Combat is doing these days

Done with IDPA!!

jcc7x7

(P.S. I own Wilson Combat 1911's )

Edited December 10, 2014 by jcc7x7

[daytona955i]

I think having a division with very few participants means that maybe it is time for it to go, especially if there are other divisions to explore. Though, I think they should just add another division and allow match directions to try it out before they eliminate ESR.

[GmanCdp]

Just put ESR in with CDP... And reclassify as a second gun in CDP when shooting revolver in a different class. You may be a SS with the auto but a MM with the revolver

[GOF]

I think that makes sense. A 165 PF moon clip fed revolver could easily be competitive with a 7 or 8 shot 1911 in CDP. In an 18 round string they are both going to have to make 2 reloads. Let the Down 0s and Down whatevers determine the outcome. A skilled 625 shooter can make a full reload just about as fast as a 1911 shooter can make a slide lock reload. On a 13-16 round stage the 1911 has an advantage in one less reload, but I think that skill, and accurate shooting, can overcome that one less reload - at least in the hands of skilled shooters. It would give the dedicated 625 folks a place to play, and see how they do.

+1 to ESR in CDP.

[v1911]

That gap in difference closes up even more when you include reloading on the move again.

[Bosshoss]

Just put ESR in with CDP... And reclassify as a second gun in CDP when shooting revolver in a different class. You may be a SS with the auto but a MM with the revolver

I think that makes sense. A 165 PF moon clip fed revolver could easily be competitive with a 7 or 8 shot 1911 in CDP. In an 18 round string they are both going to have to make 2 reloads. Let the Down 0s and Down whatevers determine the outcome. A skilled 625 shooter can make a full reload just about as fast as a 1911 shooter can make a slide lock reload. On a 13-16 round stage the 1911 has an advantage in one less reload, but I think that skill, and accurate shooting, can overcome that one less reload - at least in the hands of skilled shooters. It would give the dedicated 625 folks a place to play, and see how they do.

+1 to ESR in CDP.

This for the win. This has been brought up before and still sounds like the best solution.

Please let this happen and let the 5" guns back in. Same barrel length as most 1911's in CDP.

[afoulk]

I'd definitely run my 625 in CDP at 165.

[rowdyb]

I would honestly enjoy seeing that kind of competition between platforms. That'd be fun to me, seeing revos and autos in the same division.

[Jim Watson]

The divisions only matter for trophy allocation - which IDPA gives out way too many of - you can always look at the overall scores and brag about beating the "bottom feeders" with your "wheelie."

[GOF]

Jim Watson has it nailed. There is tremendous joy in beating a bunch of bottom feeders with your wheelgun. I have won HOA at a few IDPA club matches shooting SSR. The fact that in those matches the COFs were mostly 6 and 12 rounds helped. But, it is a great feeling to be sitting around after the match and hear some young "go fast' kid commenting about how he "Just got his butt handed to him by an old guy with a revolver".

It lifts the spirits

Why not let the 625's compete in CDP? Why not allow them to shoot the same 5 inch barrel as the 1911 guys? What is IDPA afraid of? If it brings in shooters and gives them a chance to burn rounds and have fun -- isn't that a good thing?

[Jim Watson]

I have often said that there is no way you can lose by shooting a revolver.

If you don't do well, so what? Nobody expected the antique to be competitive.

If you DO place high, everybody is amazed.

I have always been in favor of letting the "high capacity" revolvers enter in CDP.

Looks like we might now have to expand that to any clipgun.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Jim Watson

[Koppi]

I'm in for that, SSR and CDP. What a great idea! Saves my gun from being a safe queen.

[bikerburgess]

Wait you want to shoot a 45 revolver in a 45 only division? that makes too much sense

[Steve H]

Ok, someone along the line started hitting the crack pipe.........no way could the ESR compete with the CDP guns.....! I recently got back into IDPA as I have started shooting the revo in USPSA and ICORE.....ESR is a good place for me to shoot my .45 revolver.......I don't know anyone that can load a moon clip revolver as fast as they can a single stack 1911.........

My hope is that IDPA just combines the two revolvers into one division........

[MWP]

I'm with Steve on this one, put them in one division with seperate power factors.

But we could talk about the 7 and 8 shot guns in all the other divisions... They just need to make that power factor.

[Steve H]

In looking at the 2013 IDPA nationals.........Glen Shelby won CDP with a time of 244.59......Jerry M won ESR with a time of 294.66..........the second place finisher in ESR was over 100 seconds behind Jerry. Jerry's time would have put him in 6th place in CDP..........that is totally awesome....but we are talking about Jerry here..........the second ESR finisher would have been 41st in CDP......

[JerryShoots]

At the higher levels have they even discussed seperating revolver from autos? We could do like CDP,ESP,SSP Saturday and Revolver on Sunday. Or we could do auto in May and revo in September. I shoot CDP or SSP mostly but if the match was revolver only I would shoot it and I bet a lot of others would too! Imagine it... an IDPA state match with 150 revolvers! Seems more fair than taking away from the revolver guys. Look at the USPA SS and Revo nats. Both matches have gained shooters since they are held together and you can shoot both!

[ihocky2]

I have two quick thoughts.

First, the reason IDPA wants ESR gone is all of that 45 brass that does not go home with the SO's. Okay, that is mostly sarcastic, but I don't understand the whole thought of 6 divisions only. Who cares how many their are? Let people come and shoot what they own, you know the Founding Principles.

I don't think the 625 belongs in CDP. Try a tuned 1911 vs. a 625 both at 165pf. You will notice which one is the revolver, there is noticeably more recoil and in a different direction. With reloads on the move, I do think reload difference is negligible.

[blaese490]

Sounds way too logical.... Also seems like were bringing ICORE into IDPA.... But i like the ideas.

[Joe4d]

I think this thread is hilarious. The new 9mm revolvers and 45 thunder ranch caught my eye and I am back on gun sights looking at whats the latest.
I quit IDPA when ESR started, was last straw for me.
I bought a 646 .40 6 shot , titanium cylinder L frame, just under 4" and IIRC about 26 oz empty, was a really fun quick handling gun at 125 pf, then the rules changed, suddenly I had to shoot major pf out if it, no fun.
Looks like I am gonna order a case of bowling pins and just have fun in my back yard.