Is this an athletic sport? Or, I like physical challenges.

[Chills1994]

@ Chris Keen... if you were to click on that link I posted up above, you will get some insight on how that 93 World Shoot went down.

From what I gathered, on one stage they had shooters starting with their hands in a bucket of water, submerged.

That doesn't necessarily seem to be the brightest idea in the world.

[VegasOPM]

This conversation kind of reminds me of the old SOF matches. I remember one stage where you engaged some targets with a pistol, holstered the pistol, ran 200 yds backwards and engaged the same targets with a rifle.

Keeping in mind also that the RO's have to run the same course of fire as the shooters. An extremely active stage in a major match, being run several hundred times is going to make the RO's unhappy.

[Chris Keen]

@ Chris Keen... if you were to click on that link I posted up above, you will get some insight on how that 93 World Shoot went down.

From what I gathered, on one stage they had shooters starting with their hands in a bucket of water, submerged.

That doesn't necessarily seem to be the brightest idea in the world.

Oh dude ........... where's the original thread poster when you say something like that!?!

He's had stages that required you to hold a soda can under water (ice water mind you) prior to the start signal.

Come on Bill ... I miss the old days!

[BritinUSA]

BritinUSA, Can you elaborate on what "was going on back then" so we can understand where this sport came from?

I wish I still had the full course of fire booklet, I lent it to someone and never got it back. From memory:

Hands submerged in soapy water, draw gun and engage targets behind a series of doors. One shooter turned before drawing the gun and his gun fell into the water.

Shoot targets astride a police motorbike then jump off and engaging the remaining targets.

Sitting in a row-boat floating in a 5' high metal container filled with water. Shoot targets from the boat, step from the boat (without slipping into the freezing water) and shoot some more targets from a wooden platform.

A stage with a platform supported by a large number of industrial sized bed-springs, as you moved to engage targets through ports, the whole floor was moving left/right, forwards/backwards.

Running through about a dozen car tires suspended from the ceiling, if you ran at it head first all you got was a concussion.

Shooting over the side of a double decker bus at some targets that were vertically right beneath the shooter (next to the bus) then run down a winding stairway that had step about 6" deep and 18" wide that rotated around 90 degrees. The floor of the bus and the stairs were wet, muddy and covered in wet leaves. Then run across the thick slippery mud to shoot some more targets down-range.

Starting in a barbers chair wearing a smock, looking at turning targets behind you with a barber's mirror. When the targets turned you had to spin off the chair and shoot them.

Running up a sloped wall and shooting targets from the top.

Running up some stairs and across a platform (about 15-20') in the air and shooting some poppers and targets from the top.

Running left to right down range, engaging targets that were inside some shacks.

[Chris Keen]

That all sounds pretty fun except for the double decker bus with the slippery steps.

The barber chair sounds like a great stage. Visual starts are something that has gone away in the last decade or so. It really messes with people when there is no audible start signal.

[herky]

"It really messes with people when there is no audible start signal."

Self starts can be fun to watch. Ever notice how long it takes some shooters to realize that there is not going to be a buzz unless they make it happen.

[Mo Hepworth]

BritinUSA, Can you elaborate on what "was going on back then" so we can understand where this sport came from?

I wish I still had the full course of fire booklet, I lent it to someone and never got it back. From memory:

Hands submerged in soapy water, draw gun and engage targets behind a series of doors. One shooter turned before drawing the gun and his gun fell into the water.

Shoot targets astride a police motorbike then jump off and engaging the remaining targets.

Sitting in a row-boat floating in a 5' high metal container filled with water. Shoot targets from the boat, step from the boat (without slipping into the freezing water) and shoot some more targets from a wooden platform.

A stage with a platform supported by a large number of industrial sized bed-springs, as you moved to engage targets through ports, the whole floor was moving left/right, forwards/backwards.

Running through about a dozen car tires suspended from the ceiling, if you ran at it head first all you got was a concussion.

Shooting over the side of a double decker bus at some targets that were vertically right beneath the shooter (next to the bus) then run down a winding stairway that had step about 6" deep and 18" wide that rotated around 90 degrees. The floor of the bus and the stairs were wet, muddy and covered in wet leaves. Then run across the thick slippery mud to shoot some more targets down-range.

Starting in a barbers chair wearing a smock, looking at turning targets behind you with a barber's mirror. When the targets turned you had to spin off the chair and shoot them.

Running up a sloped wall and shooting targets from the top.

Running up some stairs and across a platform (about 15-20') in the air and shooting some poppers and targets from the top.

Running left to right down range, engaging targets that were inside some shacks.

This sounds like the Matches we have in Northern New Brunswick, Canada. The boys at Dalhousie gun Club are constantly improving and making great stages.

http://www.restigouchegunclub.com/apps/pho...albumid=7140040

You can see some of the movement and obstacles to overcome in the match, ..some of the pictures show the layout. Darkhouse, couple mazes, boat, see-saw, bed, etc..etc.. almost every stage required active movement and physical challenges as well as good accuracy. These stages were from a sanctioned level 3 match,...17 stages, 2 days. $65 match fee= well worth it, as the full banquet meal and door prizes (about 4 tables full) were included. Barbecue on site. Best match in Canada outside of the Nationals this year.

Edited December 20, 2009 by Mo Hepworth

[BSeevers]

@ Chris Keen... if you were to click on that link I posted up above, you will get some insight on how that 93 World Shoot went down.

From what I gathered, on one stage they had shooters starting with their hands in a bucket of water, submerged.

That doesn't necessarily seem to be the brightest idea in the world.

Oh dude ........... where's the original thread poster when you say something like that!?!

He's had stages that required you to hold a soda can under water (ice water mind you) prior to the start signal.

Come on Bill ... I miss the old days!

Hands cold and wet? I have ruffled so many panties with that one. Uh we shoot ALL the time with wet, cold hands, See Nationals in Tulsa or many other matches. PS Its a mind $%& shooters

Hands Soapy wet? I don't like it cause it sounds like a problem. running 200 yards Backwards? Uh no too biased to the guy who runs backwards everyday(Give him a freakshow award) See its easy to keep stuff in prospective.

I totally agree if you can't climb the obstacle then we have a rule for that. Go around.

This is the issue. You are to solve the course challenge to the best of your ability. If your ability is limited then that's life and frankly so is everybody at some level. For example an old guy is accurate and young guy can jump over a box.

I just want a shot at solving more challenging courses and see some courses getting weak and boring.

Oh example Nationals has a couple stages two or three years ago in the shape of a W so you had to run backwards. People loved it and called it innovative. You see that challenge at other majors now. Well it ain't innovative and went away a few years ago under the cloak of "safety"

Edited December 20, 2009 by BSeevers

[Sarge]

That all sounds pretty fun except for the double decker bus with the slippery steps.

The barber chair sounds like a great stage. Visual starts are something that has gone away in the last decade or so. It really messes with people when there is no audible start signal.

Chris, I can probably get my hands on a barber chair!

Well??

[Chris Keen]

That would be a great stage Kevin, but the barber chair is the least of the problem. We would need some sort of visual start signal. Turning targets are a little hard to come by/make work consistently.

Anyhow, this doesn't really fall under the "physical" challenge that Bill started this thread about. Although it does bring back ideas of "old school stages". (where's Tightloop when you really need him?)

As much as I hate to say it, match directors of today's local clubs could learn alot by watching videos of some international matches. IPSC still does it right, with lots of physical props. Not necessarily something that only the young and physically fit could do, but fun stuff like Mo talked about in Canada. See-Saws, shaky bridges (longer, walkable bridges), stairs that lead up to a platform of some sort, ropes to grab, etc.

Physical challenges dont have to be about leaping small buildings, climbing a 8ft. wall, or going prone 3 different times in 1 stage. They can be fun and interesting. Like Bill said, a stage in the shape of a W. Moving backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards in the same stage isnt dangerous, and it isnt difficult. It can be done by the fleet of foot, as much as it can the Super Seniors. It does involve more props such as more walls, or ropes, or something extra.

Perhaps thats another reason why stage designers have shelved the idea of more physically challenging stages. Partially because of the complainers .... yes, it is easier to SHOOT a stage that doesnt require running long distances, or going prone. But it is also alot *easier* to design a stage that doesnt have a Cooper Tunnel or a Teeter-totter.

So if you guys like physically challenging stages - then by all means *HELP OUT*. Come up with some interesting prop ideas, or stage designs. And dont be afraid to organize a work party to build some new props. Cooper Tunnels, Teeter Totters, Rope Bridges dont build themselves. Be a part of the solution.

Edited December 20, 2009 by Chris Keen

[Glen517]

Let me qualify this first. If it hadden't been for Bill and his chalenging stages I probably would have not stayed with this sport.

I am a 52 year old (fat) guy who loves this sport and it's chalenges. Been shooting for just 4 years and been to tons of matches. I didn't know you could complain about stage design. I just figure you look it over and get through it to the best of your ability. No matter who you are. Thats why we have classes. I'm a B class shooter and I get through the stages just as well as the 20 year old B class shooters.

The stages present a problem for you to solve. Solve it and get to shooting. It's as simple as that.

Some majors I've been to have been dissipointing lots of short courses and stand and shoots with few field courses (time constraints). Didn't feel I got my moneys worth. Now give me a major with 10 32 round chalenging field courses I'de be the first to sign up.

to Bill

[Ron Ankeny]

A Master class shooter will most likely be able to vault a low wall, or climb an obstacle that a D class shooter may not.

Still, one could make GM without ever leaving a 3'x3' box. I know that for a fact.

[Paul Santiago]

From what I gathered, on one stage they had shooters starting with their hands in a bucket of water, submerged.

thread drift...

Wait a minute!! We did that at an indoor match a couple years ago. Now I see it wasn't original. Lot's of complaints about it but..

[Chills1994]

just because it was done in the past and all parties concerned got away intact with no additional holes in them doesn't necessarily make it wise stage design, in my opinion.

For whatever it is worth, over the past couple of days I have done a few searches that are somewhat relevant to this thread.

If you are similarly interested, just do a search for "bubble" , "bubblegum", and "BIPSC".

The topic of this thread has already been hashed out many, many times.

I really do NOT foresee us making any progress....we're all just spinning our wheels. I think.

[ima45dv8]

5 days late finding this thread (work and life demands). Good discussion, even if elements have been covered before. Refreshing older ideas isn't a bad thing at all.

At 6'2' 290 lbs. no one is going to confuse me with the athletic folks described in this thread. My knees hurt sometimes and I hate going prone because I teeter(!) But when it comes to stage design, Build it and make it rules-compliant and I will be there! I'll piss and moan with the best of them about a Cooper Tunnel, but not enough to leave. I came to play. I've shot majors with Uncle Bill and Chris and those guys, and I do wish I could run like they do but I can't. I don't run fast and I'm kinda clumsy. Big deal. I maintain a dislike of excessively short "Gumby-people ports", but not enough to go home when I see them.

Like Keen and others have said, if you want to see a different flavor stage than what you've been getting -- get out there and build it. I'll shoot that one, too.

[diablodawg]

Personally, I am in favor of any stage that I get to use my youth and physical ability to give me an advantage.

If you look at the beginning of the sport, it was physically challenging and that's what made it fun- maybe some impetus to stay in shape instead of buying a new expensive gun would be good for many who play this game. Things like innovative props (Ft. Bragg's bucket of cold water) don't really affect performance as much as people think, but mess with their mindset big time. Other props (Marysville's swinging platform) are great, but rarely used in a (misguided, I think) desire to create and artificially level playing field.

I would like to see a not-legal much more physically challenging match (3 gun perhaps) with different scoring to reward (or punish) shooters based on their physical fitness. "Upon start signal, shooter must perform 30 pushups and engage targets when visible." That would lead down a long and awesome road.

[Beretta Lover]

FWIW

Im 40, I weigh 208 lbs and I bench pressed 365 lbs on my 40th birthday

Im 6'2 and I work out with weights and do cardio 6 days a week, former infantry, ranger qualified, etc

Im not bragging Im just trying to qualify that Im not a guy with a reason to be pre disposed to my opinion

I dont have a reason to "not like" physical stages and field courses.

Im OK with running and falling down, rolling around, dragging the dummy around the stage etc

I think the "sitting in a chair and shooting" stuff I have encountered at some other non uspsa matches are pretty weak

having said that I think stages need to be designed to test shooting skills and not my physical fitness

Im OK with the running and shooting from box to box etc but I do realize that there are ports and obstacles that are a little too oriented.

Im not interested in beating people because I have a personal agenda that includes lots of exercise. I also dont think that most of the heavier GMs and Ms I have seen have been held back by the USPSA matches I have been to

I think the current stages I see at state and area matches are pretty well balanced regarding what is expected of shooters

But I dont like stages that stress overall physical ability above shooting

but thats just me

[calishootr]

I'm old an fat...been at this sport for 21 yrs now and have seen and done some pretty crazy stages...

the hands in icy water and retrieve AND hold a cold soda forthe duration ofthe stage, carry a dummy to safety ie the length ofthe stage, hell, we even had one guy wantingto ride a bike down range and engage targets as you went....that got veto'd after we saw him driving off-course while engaging one bank of targets....what does allthis prove?? well i thought it was a shooting sport, not a track meet like some matches have evolved into, is it fun??? depends on your level of fitness i suppose, and like the one poster said, how would like to be the RO who has to run 175+ people thru a track meet stage in 100 degree heat??? been there done that, gotthe now tattered t-shirtto prove it....

ok...rant off because IPSC shooting to me is still a kick in the pants andthats why i still do it, and encourage others to try it

[Neomet]

Is it an athletic sport? Yes. We move, (some of us run) squat, balance, hang from ropes around walls, etc. That makes it an athletic sport to me. Is it "athletic dependent"?? Kinda. You might drop a place or two under specific conditions. At 54 I'm not going to outrun many people to a gun sitting on a barrel 15 yards away (like this Sunday). But this is a pretty unusual scenario. Most field courses involve either shoot, move maybe 3 yards and shoot again, or shoot while moving a longer distance. I think this still focuses the appropriate amount on shooting skills. Got mediocre gun presentation skills? A good shooter will eat you up with a COF having 6 ports to shoot through. Sprint like Ben Johnson on juice? Won't matter if you need to engage targets while moving. I may drop a few places to a more athletic shooter on days where a wind sprit is part of the COF but big deal, I actually kinda like seeing how fast I can still get the old carcass downrange and I enjoy the different challenges of multiple types of COFs. It is one of the things I love about this sport.

[tollarja]

I like really technically challenging courses that make you feel mentally beat up after completion because it didn't quite go according to plan and you couldn't quite remember everything. I also like the ones where you must run back and forth through mazes that challenge your muzzle awareness as you back out and leave you huffing and puffing when you actually hit the last steel with your last round. The run and gun is just pure fun and shows me where I am weak physically and inspires me to workout...almost. The technical shooting inspires me to dry fire and work on what I suck at. Both fit the motto of USPSA; speed, power and accuracy. Allow people who can't do certain things safely to take a penalty and let the rest of us run around like crazy and have a blast.

My weakness (one of many) is subconscious speed of thought and memory and I think I like the open running courses because they allow me to remember what I need to do...probably because I am too fat and slow. The technical courses require more speed of thought than I have, but I am getting better because I keep practicing them.

I guess my point is if you are physically slow, you better make up for it by shooting better and faster. If you shoot slow, you better get in position faster. Just look at TGO and Todd J., they ain't no spring chickens, but I don't see the younger and fitter competitors eating their lunch yet, not even close.

Lastly, a more important question is how do we get more women in this sport?

[matt2ace]

I find myself at a point where the Vermont cold, Snow, Rain, etc. gets me to the point where at 50, I'd prefer to not have to deal with it. About that time I see one of our revolver division shooters who is 70++ years old who not only shoots the stages well, he also helps set up, RO, Paste, teardown etc. He does this many times while wearing a shirt that say's "No Crybabies" on the back. Pretty tough to argue with that!!! Come to Vermont in February, we'll be the guys running around the snowmen!!!

+1 for IRON BOB! The man is my GOD

Turning 50 this year and I have not reached the point where I feel any physical limitations to my shooting ability. In fact,

I see myself continuing to improve in speed and skill. I only hope I am as capable as Bob when I reach his age.

I am the MD for my club and the main course designer. Our club layout is challenging for longer courses, but we get a good mix for each match. It is pretty easy to build a long or medium course with good shooting challenges. I have found that short courses can be tougher to design with challenging layouts. However, they can be static and still present a challenge to shooting skills (SH/WH only, unloaded-table draw, lots of no shoots or hard cover, etc.).

Feedback I get is that my stages are as challenging (or more) than some major matches. IMHO, I have met my goal when I hear that feedback.

Yea, I get a few whiners.....I just smile and walk away.

Edited January 15, 2010 by matt2ace

[murkish]

If you want a match that is more physically challenging, then name yourself match director, find a host range, and set about designing one that is as physically challenging as you like. No one is holding you back. Build it and they very well may come.

Jack

[Lee King]

The thing I don't like about "dumbing down" a match isn't so much the physical aspect. Rather, it really doesn't allow your shooters to prepare for bigger matches. If they show up at a championship and encounter a texas star for the first time for example, or if they've never encountered a memory stage, or a field of head shot only targets through a chest high port, OR physically demanding stages then, at least to me, I've fallen down on my job. I'm not saying you have to hit shooters with all of that on every stage. Just that you have to think about your seasoned shooters too.

[Beretta Lover]

The thing I don't like about "dumbing down" a match isn't so much the physical aspect. Rather, it really doesn't allow your shooters to prepare for bigger matches. If they show up at a championship and encounter a texas star for the first time for example, or if they've never encountered a memory stage, or a field of head shot only targets through a chest high port, OR physically demanding stages then, at least to me, I've fallen down on my job. I'm not saying you have to hit shooters with all of that on every stage. Just that you have to think about your seasoned shooters too.

I dont consider texas stars and high ports physically challenging

Its the run 25 yds or drag the dummy around the COF things that create an unequal playing field

throw 32 peices of steel out there in a stage like they did at area 6 last year and shoot "Mels too tough standards" and you get the technical aspect, Im fine with that

PS I aint skeered of the texas star, we have one locally we shoot at least once maybe twice a month

[Lee King]

The thing I don't like about "dumbing down" a match isn't so much the physical aspect. Rather, it really doesn't allow your shooters to prepare for bigger matches. If they show up at a championship and encounter a texas star for the first time for example, or if they've never encountered a memory stage, or a field of head shot only targets through a chest high port, OR physically demanding stages then, at least to me, I've fallen down on my job. I'm not saying you have to hit shooters with all of that on every stage. Just that you have to think about your seasoned shooters too.

Wasn't referring to physical but rather dumbing it down and making it easy in general whether that be physical or hard shots or props. While the star may not challenge you, if you've never seen it before and show up to a championship with one...

My point was MD's need to think of shooters going to the next level as much as the new shooter who may be overwhelmed.