Is this an athletic sport? Or, I like physical challenges.

[duncan]

There used to be a photo of Bill Wilson jumping off a 6 or 7 foot platform. Now that would be tough on alot of shooters. If any of you went to an

Area 3 match when Manny was running it, you could expect at least 1 very long field course. You may go 25 yds if you went in a straight line.

But you end up going 50, cause it aint a straight line. A BLAST !!! As long as everyone has to do it, whats the problem. Low ports suck for me 6"

but we have a shooter here thats about4'10" hi ports suck for him. I like long field courses. And I'm 51 and fat. But, I'm also one of the people on Friday night setting up. Long one suck then.

[little_kahuna]

I had the same problem just this weekend with "complaints" of sorts. The complaints were so bad, that on what I believed to be a good stage, the MD mandated that the footfault/lines be pushed out so that the "guys with bad knees didn't have to lean so far around the barricades and didn't have to shoot strong or weak hand" (which is like 65% of the competitors at our <20 person match).

I've gotta give props to Lanzo @ post #63. Exactly my sentiments.

I'm a kid, sure, but i'm like 5'8" at 185, I've wrestled since I was 6, and I'm by no stretch of the imagination a narrow guy (like Adrian S. )

I am not supportive of the idea that we should have to kip over 6' walls before engaging targets, or climbing a rope ladder then repelling down a rock wall with a gun on. However, I'm disappointed that even in the short 3 years I've been on the scene, local matches always seem dumbed down (so to speak) to accomodate. I pay hard earned (oftentimes my parents', bless them) cash to travel all across the US to shoot in what I consider serious or competitve matches. If the "causal enthusiasts" mandate that every stage lack a challenge, then what happens when (semi-/extremely-)serious competitors like me show up and perform poorly due to unpreparedness. Not everyone can afford a private range to practice whatever they want, and if level1's are all they can pratice on, then I think that the guys/gals putting out (financially) to go to far-away matches deserve a good practice (and I'm not saying impossible stuff here).

I think that Norco Running Gun is am exellent example of "good practice;" they host a match every weekend, and all the stages are setup with oen thing in mind: prepare for Area, National, or International Championships. No stages that they setup are impossible, nor are they easy. They are setup like worldshoot stages, and are intended to prepare shooters to perform well anywhere they go... and they get between 90 and 120 shooters per weekend.

[Flexmoney]

I'm a kid, sure, but i'm like 5'8" at 185, I've wrestled since I was 6, and I'm by no stretch of the imagination a narrow guy (like Adrian S. )

Next match will be you and Adrian trying to throw a wooden pallet onto a bon-fire.

[Maks_H]

little_kahuna I completely agree with you. Local matches should have more challenges as big matches. It's all about DVC - how fast you can run while shooting good hits

[murkish]

This whole thread is kind of funny. As best as I can tell, there is a minority of competitors who desire that stage designers cater to them rather than to another minority of shooters.

I have never had any qualms about tackling any challenge that has been presented in a course of fire, but the rule book is pretty clear on this. USPSA is about the shooting. I agree that COFs should not be modified to avoid making some competitors take a strong hand or weak hand only shots. If your physique or level of fitness allows you take the shot with two hands, good for you. I am all about free-style.

I also have no issue with reasonable non-shooting challenges. They make the sport interesting, but this is still primarily a shooting sport, rather than an athletic one. I think it is stretching to say that DVC was ever meant to apply to anything other than shooting.

A few citations from the 2008 Rules (emphasis added):

Principles of USPSA Competitions

4. Practical shooting competition is a test of expertise in the use of practical

firearms and equipment.

1.1.2 Quality – The value of an USPSA match is determined by the quality

of the challenge presented in the course design. Courses of fire must be

designed primarily to test a competitor’s USPSA shooting skills, not

their physical abilities.

1.1.3 Balance – Accuracy, Power and Speed are equivalent elements of

USPSA shooting, and are expressed in the Latin words “Diligentia, Vis,

Celeritas” (“DVC”). A properly balanced course of fire will depend

largely upon the nature of the challenges presented therein, however,

courses must be designed, and USPSA matches must be conducted in

such a way, as to evaluate these elements equally.

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted

to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot

targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not

require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or

stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created,

and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel

a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

1.1.6 Difficulty – USPSA matches present varied degrees of difficulty. No

shooting challenge or time limit may be appealed as being prohibitive.

This does not apply to nonshooting challenges, which should reasonably

allow for differences in competitor’s height and physical build.

2.1.6 Obstacles – Natural or created obstacles in a course of fire should reasonably

allow for variations in competitors’ height and physical build

and should be constructed to provide reasonable safety for all competitors,

Match Officials and spectators.

In my mind, it is very clear that this is not a track and field meet or an obstacle course with a gun. Maybe a new sport is needed that is equally about shooting challenges and physical challenges, this one doesn't.

Regards,

Jack

[DocMcG]

I fell in love with 3-gun because of the movement and challenges offered by stages in matches that require tons of physical activity. I have also started a physical fitness program that complements the physical demands of three-gun as a part of my training regiment. So, I love shooting while moving plus it has motivated me to exercise again - SOUNDS LIKE A WIN-WIN TO ME!

However, I have learned enough over time that we humans are fickle characters who have a tendency to eat crow for things we say when we have the physical capacity to perform. I have several friends that can no longer shoot while moving as they once did and it is quite hurtful to see the discouragement in their eyes. Therefore, I will only say that I love to shoot while moving now, but may have a change of heart when my body no longer cooperates. With all that said, it is my contention that matches should not be made less challenging because our physical prowess may not be what it once was. Why allow our own pride to stifle the development/improvement of shooters such as Nick (little_kahuna) above in post #77? Pushing such young shooters will only stand to make them better, which makes US better. Maybe we should just accept the fact that our levels of performance may not be at the level we once enjoyed or maybe we should find different disciplines/classes that allow us to be more competitive. (Oh, I smell crow cooking in my future!)

Great thread - Love the stories about matches offering "Superman-Like" challenges!

Kyle

Edited January 21, 2010 by DocMcG

[DocMcG]

I fell in love with 3-gun because of the movement and challenges offered by stages in matches that require tons of physical activity. I have also started a physical fitness program that complements the physical demands of three-gun as a part of my training regiment. So, I love shooting while moving plus it has motivated me to exercise again - SOUNDS LIKE A WIN-WIN TO ME!

However, I have learned enough over time that we humans are fickle characters who have a tendency to eat crow for things we say when we have the physical capacity to perform. I have several friends that can no longer shoot while moving as they once did and it is quite hurtful to see the discouragement in their eyes. Therefore, I will only say that I love to shoot while moving now, but may have a change of heart when my body no longer cooperates. With all that said, it is my contention that matches should not be made less challenging because our physical prowess may not be what it once was. Why allow our own pride to stifle the development/improvement of shooters such as Nick (little_kahuna) above in post #77? Pushing such young shooters will only stand to make them better, which makes US better. Maybe we should just accept the fact that our levels of performance may not be at the level we once enjoyed or maybe we should find different disciplines/classes that allow us to be more competitive. (Oh, I smell crow cooking in my future!)

Great thread - Love the stories about matches offering "Superman-Like" challenges!

Kyle

HA! Maku mozo! for today:

Time is the psychological enemy of man.

-Krishnamurti

- Irony Abounds -

[Ron Ankeny]

...local matches always seem dumbed down (so to speak)...

I hate to drift the thread, but frankly it seems to me the entire sport has been dumbed down as far as accuracy. I have seen places that just have little clumps of targets scattered about that end up being little hose fests between mini-marathons. As a middle aged (or more)guy who hasn't aged well, I am not all about a foot race, but I do understand the guys who like to scamper about and I accept that as the reality of the sport. But just for once, I would like to shoot a match where the nearest mini-popper and/or plate is 35 yards and wide open poppers and paper targets are at 50 yards.

[sslav]

I would like to shoot a match where the nearest mini-popper and/or plate is 35 yards and wide open poppers and paper targets are at 50 yards.

The easiest way to facilitate shooting that type of stage is to set it up yourself. While on one or two occasions I was asked by my match directors to reduce the level of a physical challenge on a stage I designed, I have never been asked to make a shot easier.

[Flexmoney]

Options are nice.

[little_kahuna]

I'm a kid, sure, but i'm like 5'8" at 185, I've wrestled since I was 6, and I'm by no stretch of the imagination a narrow guy (like Adrian S. )

Next match will be you and Adrian trying to throw a wooden pallet onto a bon-fire.

LoL!

Okay, I'll admit, adrian and I are a terrible fire-building team, but we weren't all born to be arsonists Flex!

[Flexmoney]

You weren't born with a pistol in hand either, but you are managing to get along well in that regard.

Conrad may be the Grand Master Supreme Champion of back yard bon-fires.

[BSeevers]

Funny thing is I see both sides arguing the same way and with the exact same but opposite belief system. I could go as far as change "I like physical" and replace it with "its about shooting" in almost every point made in this post.

I like shooting challenges too and smile at 50 yard shots cause it usually means more stage points since most don't practice that. Although I usually hear the same complaining about a popper at 38 yrds as I do about a stage with a set of stairs.

For those who say "start setting up stages" I personally have ran clubs by myself for years with 75+ shooters showing up. Oh and that was a different era where "combat" idiots would complain that I was taking too long to set it up and the match sucked. New to the sport, I held back a lot in those days. Feedback is generally never appreciated but it can lead to great performances. But today I freely will try to "educate" someone giving that kind of neg feedback while lounging under an umbrella.

I don't mean to be personally attacking anyone/anything in this reply, I just know I have noticed a trend in MD's to set up less challenging and less physical stages.

I could start a whole new thread on "Stages don't have enough shooting challenges" When was last time you shot head shots at 15 yds? I never see that.

I agree that you don't need to set up jungle gyms and rope repelling to challenge shooters. I set up an indoor one bay match one time and smiled as I threw off 3 GM's n M's with my target presentation and positioning.

Now you can definitly go too far either way. I no longer attend a local match cause they started to put fast jerking Partial Movers with No-shoots attached at 30 yards. It turns into luck shots at that point and more to my personal point of view, It's no fun. I also no longer attend another match cause its so dry and boring it seems like the same shot over and over. No physical challenges BUT no far shots, little movers, no good obstacles, Same target presentations, and again no Fun.

[Nik Habicht]

I just know I have noticed a trend in MD's to set up less challenging and less physical stages.

That just jumped out at me: One of the things that makes the Old Bridge match so much fun is that there's a staff of stage designers/builders. There's probably 10-12 people designing and taking responsibility for actually building their designs on match day --- for a seven day match. That combined with different pit sizes and shapes, results in a nice blend of stages....

In the bigger pits it's a toss-up as to whether you'll get lots of running or lots of long shots; in the smaller pits, you'll see more intricate shooting positions and movers -- so hitting your marks/fluidly moving and picking the right engagement order becomes critical...

If there's just one person designing and building stages, I think that's much harder to do --- and leads to earlier burnout....

The internet makes it easier to communicate/coordinate matches/stages. I can e-mail diagrams, or stage title, round count, and special prop needs to the MD....

[Ron Ankeny]

The easiest way to facilitate shooting that type of stage is to set it up yourself.

It would seem that way, but such is not the case. I have been setting up stages for many years and the reality is I need to reach a balance that suits our clients. FWIW, I pretty much laid off of shooting due to burn out a year or so ago. I want to get back into USPSA shooting so the first item on the agenda is to lose 40 pounds. I have lost 25 since the first of December and I'll reach my goal before the summer season is in full swing. Yeah, I don't like overly physical stages (arthritis), but in reality being in decent physical condition helps one to focus, builds stamina, and so forth, whether you are shooting Steel Challenge from a box or running and gunning in warp drive. The physical aspect of IPSC keeps me motivated, but I still need something to bitch about.

[35WLN]

I don't mean any disrespect to anyone but... It seems that it is mostly the older and out of shape people who don't want the "run and gun" stages. I think that there are two reasons for that. 1. As a person gets older they are not able to do physical things as well as when they were younger and this hurts there pride. 2. Keeping your high classification matters too much. I know of a few shooters that were classified as B,A and Masters that no longer shoot at that level. Age and physical shape has taken that from them. So if they can eliminate the "run and gun" part of the stages they have a better shot at scoring at the top. Again this is pride.

Now I am not suggesting rope climbing and repelling, but stretch it out a little and/or difficult shots is where it's at. I like others is why I like 3gun so much and sometimes feel bored with pistol matches. I am 6'1 and 225 so I am not in the best of shape and can be beat in a foot race by alot of the other shooters. However, I also get beat by alot fast shooters and I doubt that I will ever put into it to get to GM. In both cases I am OK with it and enjoy the game.

My point to all of this is, is it your pride that wants to make it easier for yourself so you look better?

[Flexmoney]

I don't mean any disrespect to anyone but... It seems that it is mostly the older younger and out of shape fit people who don't want the "run and gun" stages.

I think that there are two reasons for that. 1. They aren't able to do physical skillful things as well...and this hurts there pride. 2. Keeping your high classification Winning matters too much.

So if they can eliminate the "run and gun" skill part of the stages they have a better shot at scoring at the top. Again this is pride.

My point to all of this is, is it your pride that wants to make it easier for yourself so you look better?

That was fun.

Cabin fever anybody?

35WLN...that response isn't pointed at you. Somebody else mentioned crossing out and replacing words from posts. Thought I'd give it a go to lighten the mood.

[BSeevers]

I don't mean any disrespect to anyone but... It seems that it is mostly the older younger and out of shape fit people who don't want the "run and gun" stages.

I think that there are two reasons for that. 1. They aren't able to do physical skillful things as well...and this hurts there pride. 2. Keeping your high classification Winning matters too much.

So if they can eliminate the "run and gun" skill part of the stages they have a better shot at scoring at the top. Again this is pride.

My point to all of this is, is it your pride that wants to make it easier for yourself so you look better?

That was fun.

Cabin fever anybody?

35WLN...that response isn't pointed at you. Somebody else mentioned crossing out and replacing words from posts. Thought I'd give it a go to lighten the mood.

Perfect

[Jim Norman]

I am about to turn 57. My eyesight is corrected to 20/25 and that is as good as it gets. I am about 6-1 and 205. My knees HURT.

Build it, I will shoot it. I will hurt when I am done and I may not be fastest or most accurate and I can bitch with the best of them. But I will come out and I will shoot it. If you build a run from box A to box B to box C and there are no options, no gaming, no challenges, I probably won't come back.

I am a Competitive person.

I like Physical, I like accuracy, I like movers, I like options.

Jim

[Vlad]

Jim, to be fair, you are pretty far at the end of the spectrum. Indeed you would shoot in weather and conditions were most people wouldn't leave the house, but you know damn well we have lots of people who whine if they have to go prone. Mostly I ignore their whines, but at the end of the day you have to know your audience.

As a stage builder and MD, it boils down to knowing you shooters and pushing them a bit further. Personally I like hard stages (physical or just challenging shots) but if 90% of your shooters like stand and shoots and you design courses with Rhodesian walls then pretty soon you won't have enough shooters for a match. I think it is better to have a boring match then no match at all IF you try to push the shooters outside their comfort zone by 10% or so, and you keep doing it every match until it stops being boring.

[Jim Norman]

Vlad,

You know that the matches we build, you and I, are designed to fit the majority of our shooters. Yes we go prone, but generally make that the last position so that no one needs to spring back up off the ground. We make the ports low enough that no one needs a box or a ladder and tall enough that no one can't get a sight picture though them.

As you know, our audience runs the range from junior to super senior, and from track star to walker. Neither CJ nor OB seems to get too many real complaints regarding our stages so we must be doing something right. If we had no complaints, I'd worry and if we had too many I'd worry. The number we collectively get seems about right.

See you Sunday

Jim

[Jake Di Vita]

The thing is, when people complain about the difficulty of the shooting, often we tell them to practice until it is a non-issue.

I don't see why we can't and shouldn't use the same response when people complain about the physicality of a stage and when you consider how long most people have been treating themselves like crap - well it just isn't going to happen overnight.

Like anything worth doing, it isn't easy and isn't supposed to be.

Oh I'm sure we'll hear every excuse in the book for why people can't do that, but the fact is it took me many years of shooting to become any good at all.

Ron,

Man, I'm proud as hell of you.

PM on the way.

[murkish]

I am about to turn 57. My eyesight is corrected to 20/25 and that is as good as it gets. I am about 6-1 and 205. My knees HURT.

Build it, I will shoot it. I will hurt when I am done and I may not be fastest or most accurate and I can bitch with the best of them. But I will come out and I will shoot it. If you build a run from box A to box B to box C and there are no options, no gaming, no challenges, I probably won't come back.

I am a Competitive person.

I like Physical, I like accuracy, I like movers, I like options.

Jim

I agree with Jim wholeheartedly. I have never whined or complained about anything I have faced in a match. This would include steel taken prone through a drum at 70 yards, 2009 DTC in the snow, 2009 Area 4 in ankle deep mud or a 160 point all-steel long field course with 5 shooting positions and a Texas Star at the end. (Which I happened to score a stage win in Production as a C over an A, an M and a bunch of Bs) At 5'10" 5'9" tipping 280 290, I will run and gun with any of you.

The question in the title of this thread is "Is this an athletic sport?." The answer is not primarily. Primarily, it is a shooting sport. There has to be balance. It can't all be a hose fest, or a sprint with wide open targets at 3ft or 8 inch plates at 100yds. For every person that is wanting about more (or less) physicality, there is another wanting harder (or lesser) shooting challenges or complaining about the prevalence of (or lack of) monkey-motions.

As an aside, whenever you use the words "I don't mean to offend anybody," rest assured you probably will.

Regards,

Jack

PS Flex - Just to be clear my mood is as light as a feather, because it is Friday and there will be the sounds of gunfire and the pitter-patter of not-so little cleats tomorrow.

[CHA-LEE]

If you setup a match with stages that vary in complexity enough from one another to evenly challenge everyone that is about all you can do. Keep in mind that every match will have at least one person whining about something.

I agree with making minor changes to COF’s to make them fair to the vast majority of shooters. Such as not taking in account for left hand shooters and they end up with a lot more difficult shots around things verses a right handed shooter. The same could be said for extremely high ports. Low ports are fine, everyone can get lower to shoot. Some may bitch about getting lower for a port, but its funny how they all manage to get low enough to shoot the targets through the port after the buzzer goes off. Other than the changes above to make it fair, when people whine to me about a COF I simply tell them to suck it up and shoot just like the rest of us.

As for the physical running in a stage, the requirement to RUN is usually not true in a lot of cases. You would be surprised at how fast, if not faster, you can navigate a COF if you simply WALKED through it verses trying to run when you can. People seem to always forget that if you get moving fast you also need to stop fast and the Start/Stop process is a lot more time consuming than people think. 9 times out of 10, if you simply walk into a shooting position with the gun up and ready to shoot you will be able to shoot that string of fire faster, more controlled and more consistently than the guy that is trying to haul ass and slam himself into the shooting position.

Most of the long stages we shoot rarely take more than 30 seconds to complete. Think about that, 30 seconds, that’s it. Any out of shape fat ass can RUN and move quickly within a 30 second period and still not be spent from a physical standpoint. To take it a step further in that 30 second stage run the vast majority of the time you will be in a fairly stationary position while you shoot. So ask yourself, how “In Shape” do you have to be to perform for 30 seconds? As proven by a lot of what you see at local and big matches, you don’t have to be in ANY shape to be competitive. Superior physical ability, being in shape, is nothing if you can’t execute what you are trying to do. Most of the “I don’t want to run” whiners are failing in the proper execution of most everything else more often then they are failing in their ability to run. They simply choose to pick the one thing to whine about that they believe is out of their control. Verses saying “I can’t run worth a crap, so I am going to beat everyone by shooting/moving more efficiently to offset my running disadvantage”. You make it what you want it to be. If you choose to look at the negative and whine about things then that is your choice. The rest of us will be looking at the shooting challenge in a positive light as we find the best way for us to navigate the COF as effective and efficient as we can.

[BR]

You make it what you want it to be. If you choose to look at the negative and whine about things then that is your choice. The rest of us will be looking at the shooting challenge in a positive light as we find the best way for us to navigate the COF as effective and efficient as we can.

Bravo Cha-Lee (pun intended) -- your astute statements apply not just to shooting, but also to each person's reality, to life. Cheers buddy.

-br