grizzlywon Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 I have been shooting a local match every month for about 4 years. I have become an SSP master after endless hours of practice at the range and in the garage. The match I shoot is very loose to say the least. Most of us don't wear cover and we are not real quick to hand out procedurals either but many of us do go to the state match and we try to hold people to the basic rules of our club. (using cover, correct reloads, approved gear etc.) I usually end up SO'ing and will usually warn the new shooters that if they go to a big match that they will be penalized if they do "that." The next time I ding them. I just want to get them prepared. The more advanced shooter get dinged with no warning. (we know better) Needlesss to day, I have been first or second in our matches for about 2+ years without exceptoin. I end up second when a great shooter, (a top Grand Master in USPSA) shows up. This last week The scores came out and I was 7 second behind an Expert who I have been whooping for over 2 years now by about 5-10+ second in 4 stages every match! This guy is a a law enforcement guy who is known for being a real piece of work. (no offense to any law enforcement guys, trust me, you would not want to associate yourself with this guy!) I am a very competitive guy with a real sense of wanting to see justice served. So when the scores came, I was mad. To add to the anger, I have seen this guy shoot stages with hi-cap mags full, ignoring cover, reloads and tactical order. I have a feeling that, that is what he did to gain so much time. He must have skipped the 5 reloads in our match and ignored cover. I have razed him before for cheating, but though to myself, "he is cheating and still can't beat me!" I have also complained to our Club director at least with little comments. Another point to complicate this is that he also SO's with a bunch of other law enforcement guys on his squad and like I said, they all kind of do their own thing (which many times include shooting how they want). When I got the results, I ended up sending our Club director an email explaing some of this and my disappointment. It's been about 4 days and I have not heard back from him. My guess is that he doesn't want to deal with it. Have you guys had any similar experiences and what do you think I should do? Some of my ideas 1. Shoot in his squad so I can see what's going on. 2. Confront him on it. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Adams Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Confront him. If that doesn't work, talk to the club MD. If the MD doesn't take action, contact the AC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konkapot Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Yikes. Maybe before "confronting" him we maybe just ask him about his match......how it went.....how he shot Stage 1 or whatever. If his answers are not substantive, go squad with him and then you can see for yourself what he's doing. Given the time difference, I really doubt he's legitimately beating you. But go see what he's doing, and the decide whether you want to pick that particular battle. FY42385 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullauto_Shooter Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) From what you describe, it sounds like something fishy may be going on. If he routinely ignores the rules of the game and "does his own thing" - that certainly sounds like cheating. That said, I'm gonna play Devils Advocate for a moment. I wouldn't confront him without some type of proof or an eyewitness account. How embarrassing would it be if you accused him of cheating and then found out he had just been practicing hard lately and really was that good. Or maybe he shot the best match of his life. Or maybe the problem was a score keeping error - it's been known to happen. If I were you, I'd simply squad with him next time and volunteer to RO the squad to ensure he follows the rules. Edited August 22, 2009 by Fullauto_Shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Squad with him. His punishment is having to live his own life. Just be true to the game and yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Why do you shoot? For public acknowledgement that you can beat this guy .. or something else as your "prize"...? Dont't worry about him or what he scores or does not score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nwb01 Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 I believe when a club signs up to be sanctioned by IDPA one of the stipulations is to FOLLOW the rules as they are written. I would talk to the MD or AC about making that happen. Doing so would fix a lot of the issues you are facing at the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpops Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Not trying to stir the pot but....I understand your upset, rightly so. My question though is this - is it ok to cheat but just at certain times? You started off by stateing that you all break the rules on a regular basis but clean it up for the big matches. Now you have a guy that cheats to beat you. That should not be a surprise given the foundation you guys have created. Again, not trying to insult ,just giving you my view from the cheap seats. Tighten up your club for EVERYONE and this type of behavior will not be excepted by ANYONE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punkin Chunker Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Not trying to stir the pot but....I understand your upset, rightly so. My question though is this - is it ok to cheat but just at certain times?You started off by stateing that you all break the rules on a regular basis but clean it up for the big matches. Now you have a guy that cheats to beat you. That should not be a surprise given the foundation you guys have created. Again, not trying to insult ,just giving you my view from the cheap seats. Tighten up your club for EVERYONE and this type of behavior will not be excepted by ANYONE! +1. What you say about your club's approach to the rules reminds me of a joke: A drunk walks into a bar, sees a girl, and sits next to her. "If I paid you a million bucks, would you sleep with me?" After a brief thought, she says, "Well, okay. For a million bucks." The drunk then says, "I don't have a million -- how about a quickie for ten bucks?" She looks at him in disgust. "How dare you! What kind of person do you think I am?" He answers, "We've already settled that. Now we're just negotiating." The point Bigpops made is spot on. Start with a few, "We don't enforce that one here, but watch out at "the show'", and after that it all eventually boils down to, "Why can't I fill my hi-caps -- YOU don't use a cover garment." I know the whole 'buddies on the range' thing, but if you want to enforce the rules, then it's a lot easier if you enforce all of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Your best bet is to watch this guy and his buddies and see what they are doing. If he has departed from IDPA rules and procedures as much as you think, then just ignore him and gauge your performance relative to people who shoot the way you do. He is not "beating" you and you cannot "beat" him, you are playing football, he is playing soccer. You have nothing to gain by confronting him. Politely invite him to a match at a club where all the rules are followed and let a stranger deal with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 well the only thing we can truly change is ourselves so let me hold a mirror up to show you what you said: "I dont like my club not following the rules. " I SO and do the same thing," People need to get off the "Give" someone a penalty, a SO doesnt give a penalty a shooter scores or earns one, The SO that doesnt accurately record the score , yourself included by your own admission, is cheating. A procedural is not a punishment or some kind put down it is part of the score. If a new shooter is slow do you take a few seconds off his time time? If a new shooter is inaccurate do you change a few -3's to -0's cause he is new ? SO why do you feel the need to not accurately score procedural because a shooter is new? Try to be part of the solution instead of the problem, start by accurately scoring the match for the shooters you SO. Then go from there. After that who cares what another SO does. When your house is in order watch the other SO's and report specific examples to the MD or AC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbarr Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 I ended up sending our Club director an email explaing some of this and my disappointment. It's been about 4 days and I have not heard back from him. I have a real problem with this. It sounds like stuff like this has been going on for a long time. A.T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolex Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Just let those guys shoot with each other. Bad carma will hit them sooner or later, sounds like the people in charge do not want to deal with them because they are LE- and think that it will come back to haunt them. To bad things like this do happen- some will get caught others wont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glshooter Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 There is a simple solution. Your club needs to follow the rule book. They are rules not suggestions. Otherwise you really aren't shooting an IDPA match at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighVelocity Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 There is a simple solution. Your club needs to follow the rule book. They are rules not suggestions. Otherwise you really aren't shooting an IDPA match at all. I agree 100%. If it's an IDPA match, IDPA rules need to be adhered to. If not, then you get what you get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) I'll have to send the OP a PM here in a minute...but... by posting such a thread on the Brian Enos forum, you have basically outt-ed him, so one of two things is going to happen...okay, maybe three: 1. this thread will get locked down 2. somebody that shoots in your neck of the woods has figured out who you are and who this "cheater guy" is and sent him the link to this thread already, so be prepared for you to either have a bunch of your local shooters come out and pat you on the back or worst case scenario everybody is so buddy-buddy there that they turn their backs on you 3. hopefully, this cheater guy's reputation will now follow him to the larger state/regional matches and maybe even IDPA Nat's and he will be under a magnifying glass while he's there, and he'll feel everybody's eyes upon him. He'll have to take the hint...shape up... or get dinged with an FTDR/DQ . Edited August 22, 2009 by Chills1994 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 rules are the rules.. in your SO briefings..make sure everyone knows the rules, if not..have an SO course to educate all on the rules. other than that I cannot control the actions and behaviors of others. if people want to cheat they will and karma will follow. shoot your best and enjoy the time on the range with friends. don't worry about the others. the paycheck is the same at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 at the local club match level, having SO's who remain at the stages the entire day, make 99% of this crap go away. I would suggest giving your MD that piece of advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverstate Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 I am new to this board. But I have been shooting idpa/uspsa for a couple of years now. Not even close to a master. I agree, some of the rules, especially the 10rnd rule, are a real pain in the ass. And frankly, the rules of idpa cause me to shoot uspsa more often (more fun). However, if a person shoots idpa, they should expect to follow the rules, all the rules, or get dinged if they don't, regardless of who they are. Here's the problem with your situation, and some others have mentioned it. You have no proof. You say that you have seen this guy do this that and the other previously. You say you score better than him previously. But in this particular match, he scored better than you. True, he MIGHT have cheated. But you have no personal knowledge of this, you are just speculating based on his history. So what the other guys above said is correct. You need to squad with him, watch him do it, and then take the next step(s)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Consider the guy had a good match, take the whippin' and move on. What I get from your writing is you're kind of obsessed with winning. That will cause you more issues than a guy that cheats. If he continues to beat you, have a friend shoot with him, or join his squad yourself so you can see if it's foul play or not. Just because you got beat for the first time in 2 years by a lesser shooter does not warrant calling someone a cheat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bofe954 Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Do you actually win anything for winning? Before I start arguments/stir up controversy I try and figure out if I actually have anything to gain by doing so...If you know you can beat him who cares what the sheet says. Maybe the guy just wanted to practice shooting the way he works, with loaded mags. For sure, unless you shoot on his squad, I don't see how you can say he didn't have a great match, while you shot sub par. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) I have kind of lost track.... It's ok if you not follow the rules for the completely justifiable reason of "convenience", but if someone else picks and chooses some rules to not follow they are a cheater. The solution lies in #1 Shoot against yourself...when/if you have a perfect match then you can start to worry about how someone else shot it. #2 Regardless of the game, by participating we agreed to follow an arbitrary set of rules. If you are not following them, you can't expect anyone else to either. Edited August 22, 2009 by smokshwn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 I have kind of lost track....It's ok if you not follow the rules for the completely justifiable reason of "convenience", but if someone else picks and chooses some rules to not follow they are a cheater. well yeah!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMoore Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 When you run outlaw matches, you can't be angry when outlaws show up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Stoeger Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 I have seen a similar situation myself. A couple guys running a state match set up and then shot (for score) a “blind” stage. The bottom line here is that your only recourse is to talk to the Match Director and hope he straitens it out. If he doesn’t, it seems you are out of moves. I would be lookin for a new place to shoot if I was you. Others here have expressed the sentiment that by not rigidly enforcing all IDPA rules, you are somehow inviting blatant cheating. I really don’t agree with that concept. Not giving someone a procedural penalty when their toe is visible from behind cover is quite a bit different than letting someone run with full hi caps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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