World Shoot Team Selection

[Flexmoney]

Something I noticed on the first page or two of this thread...that has carried all the way through to 200+ posts...

There are a lot of members posting here that seldom agree on things. Nearly all of them agree on this topic.

[zhunter]

Something I noticed on the first page or two of this thread...that has carried all the way through to 200+ posts...

There are a lot of members posting here that seldom agree on things. Nearly all of them agree on this topic.

So ya think that a mistake was made then???

Someone needs to correct this one!!!

The Culprit should not get away with this "FIX", as that is what it is in my opinion!!!

[WDB]

I am confident that the Team Manager will make the decision based on members participation in Major Matches, Area Championships and the Nationals. So how is that not basing a decision on match performance?

Without designating which matches are used for evaluation, it is pointless to compare them. That would be like comparing SS minor to Prod. Both minor with 10 rounds, right? Different matches have different challenges and potential team members must be evaluated by the same standards or we end up with a selection system based on someone's, or even a board's "opinion". Looking at the chart below you can see what I mean. This is only the Standards team mind you:

Travis Nat. 1,3,5,6,7,8

Taran Nat. 2,3,

Emanuel Nat. 3,6,8

Shannon Nat. 3,5,6

Say you are picking the team and you are looking at this. How can anyone say that Shannon's performance at A5 was better than Travis's at A7 or Taran's A2 was more meaningful than Emanuel's A8, or any other combination you might want to compare? The whole team only attended two matches together. So, you can "say" it is performance based but there is no real measure to it. And as far as the BIG names in the sport (that would probable be picked), of all the above matches only 1 finished in the top 5 at ONE match in Limited, maybe they shot a different division. Don't know, don't care. The above named individuals sacrificed their time, money, and things I will never know to go. I know one was proud and looking forward to representing the flag and his country. THAT is what we need and that desire and commitment to excellance should be rewarded and not possibly pushed aside because somebody, and I don't give a tinker's damn who that somebody is, decides that "Well, I think that this person deserves to go over this guy because....(insert your own meaningless argument here)". You want to go to the big show, you have to go to the small towns first. Performance talks, BS and reputation walks.

Edited January 22, 2009 by WDB

[Jaxshooter]

This is our money that is being spent. It is time to stand up and make the Officers and BOD listen to the members.

[LChico]

Chuck your comment about the Michigan match is very interesting. I shot the match, and enjoyed it. However, the BOD has been informed, by a well known shooter, that the Michigan match was a bad match for an IPSC qualifier.

Very Interesting. Must be the "is the glass half full or half empty" thing

I don't know about that Gary,

John A. and Perry RM'd the match. Jeff Lafavre (certified TD) put it and a star team togehter. Larry Houck built 18 stages. It was staffed by RM's , CRO's, and RO's that populate the match staff at all of our biggest and best matches. Linda ran stats. They are a hop, skip and a swim from a true IPSC region (K-nardia).

Well, I've been trying to stay out of this, because my two earlier comments were taken as a 'slam' against John Amidon, when nothing could be further from the truth. But I have to step in to defend the Michigan Qualifier match.

Nearly half the staff were IROA certified, as well as being NROI officials. We had a ton of help from Canadian IPSC members. The match tried to replicate the types of stages USPSA shooters might encounter at a World Shoot. Larry Houck studied the stages from previous World Shoots and Level 4 IPSC matches. We intended for the stages to be challenging. We were trying to pick the 'best of the best' to send to a World Championship, not a state or Area championship. We tried to give the potential team members the entire experience: equipment cards and equipment checks, the established shooter rotations on the stages, the 3 - 2 - 1 mix of short, medium and long courses, etc. Every person who eventually won a spot on the USPSA Official Teams for the 2008 World Shoot was at the Michigan match (except Matthew Mink). I have email messages from two junior team members & one ladies team member, thanking the crew from that match because we did the best job of preparing them for an international competition.

I have yet to see a single 2008 team member on this forum suggest that they asked anyone on the BoD to change this process. Several that do not respond on this board have told me in phone conversations that the format used to select the 2008 teams was the best method USPSA had used. They were surprised to hear there were plans to change it.

And some of us DID see the item on the agenda for the BoD. Unfortunately, I just assumed the reference to World Shoot Team selection meant they were going to solidify the requirements for the Qualifier matches. A single agenda reference gave NO CLUE they were going to change the entire process.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

[Gary Stevens]

I think this might be re-assesed

[BritinUSA]

Gary, I certainly hope so. The selection process for the last WS was perfect, we got 100% success rate for our teams. It doesn't get any better than that.

[atbarr]

I think this might be re-assesed

Sounds like a good idea to me.

A.T.

[Charles Bond]

Great post Linda. I too heard great things about the match Jeff and company hosted for the WS Team selection. I was completely floored when I heard the same comment to which Gary Stevens made an earlier reference.

As I look at this forum page at this moment, there are 15 members tuned in and if that is not an all time high, I missed the thread that beat it.

If anyone is expecting anything else from me on this subject, know simply I am committed to having the BOD review its previous decision. In the short term however I am enroute to a lodge in Arkansas that has no internet (and actually only a part time septic system) in an attempt to down airline wrecking waterfowl.

Charles Bond

[kgunz11]

And as far as the BIG names in the sport (that would probable be picked), of all the above matches only 1 finished in the top 5 at ONE match in Limited, maybe they shot a different division.

I think Phil Strader would be considered one of the "BIG names" and he finished in the top 5 in the 2 Area Matches he shot in Limited, done well at Nats too.

I hope the DNROI does better with the stats than you have. (I think you were talking about TJ)

Matt Cheely might not be a big name on the TV channel, but he carries some weight around here. Look what he has done. He's earned a spot on a WS team, but does JA know who he is? Will he come to mind when considering a WS team? I certainly hope so, but that is what this whole discussion is about anyway right?

Maybe JA will announce his intentions for WS team selections in the near future and everything will be ok. I am trying to have a little faith that things will work out for the best.

Edited January 22, 2009 by kgunz11

[Gary Stevens]

(and actually only a part time septic system)

Charles Bond

Too much information

Edited January 22, 2009 by Gary Stevens

[ima45dv8]

Great post Linda. I too heard great things about the match Jeff and company hosted for the WS Team selection. I was completely floored when I heard the same comment to which Gary Stevens made an earlier reference.

As I look at this forum page at this moment, there are 15 members tuned in and if that is not an all time high, I missed the thread that beat it.

If anyone is expecting anything else from me on this subject, know simply I am committed to having the BOD review its previous decision. In the short term however I am enroute to a lodge in Arkansas that has no internet (and actually only a part time septic system) in an attempt to down airline wrecking waterfowl.

Charles Bond

I wish I was going....

[John Heiter]

I think it should be a job and I think we should buy the best team we can get. Why worry about fair when we can win at all costs? I know that as a B class bum that never competes on a national level, I personally would probably die of shame if we were to come in 2nd at a World Shoot. Do we have to limit our team to US citizens or can we hire some European shooters too? How much can we bid for Eric Graufel to come merc. for us? I'll put him up in my guest room for a couple weeks before the world shoot so he can claim US residency. Maybe we can get some of those 12 year old Chinese gymnasts too!

Seriously, I don't spend as much time on these forums as I used to, so I'm late getting to this party as well. I have to say, I'm saddened but not surprised by this decision. I don't go to Nationals, and I only rarely attend Area matches, but I am very heavily involved on the local level. I don't pretend to represent any group larger than myself, but lately I've started to seriously question exactly what it is that I'm getting by being a member of USPSA. I don't expect to agree with every decision the BOD makes, but short of a classifier database and a rulebook, I'm not sure I've gotten a lot of value for my investment over the last couple years.

I haven't had much interaction with John Amidon, but what I've had has shown him to be an intelligent, honorable, hard working gentleman. That said, I'm shocked that he would be willing to take on a role like this. He has no chance whatsoever of succeeding in this role without constantly being surrounded by controversy and speculation about motives. It is absolutely unfair to him and to any team he may select.

I'm glad to see that my AD voted against this but, to the rest of you, I'm sorry guys, but this one was a bonehead move and you're not doing yourselves any favors by trying to defend it. I'm with Kyle, all of us see it, why don't you?

John Heiter

[jasmap]

As elected officials and representatives of our membership it is clear to me that the BOD has not represented the memberships wishes on this subject. I do realize not all of the BOD voted for this. As a member of the BOD you deserve the opportunity to voice your personal opinion and make decisions but those decisions should always be what the membership desires (as much as possible). I hope the BOD made this decision with good intentions and I'll try to believe they did BUT this decision is CLEARLY not our wish or desire and as I said previously it is your duty as a representative to REPRESENT US. I am thankful for the hard work the BOD does and I would say I agree with most of the decisons made or votes but definitely not this one. Bring back the system we just used.

Edited January 22, 2009 by jasmap

[Gary Stevens]

The rest of you???????

[XRe]

The rest of you???????

Well, remember, we apparently have nine ADs, now, too

[Chuck Anderson]

I have not heard a single person say "I would rather have a sub-optimal team and an objective process than a better team lacking such process". While I would not necessarily agree with that position, I would support if it if there were indications a majority of the membership felt that way.

I would rather have a sub-optimal team and an objective process than a better team lacking such process. There you go.

[B.J. Norris]

I made some slight changes to previous selection process used (which are highlighted). To me, this would be an almost perfect way of selecting the teams.

USPSA shall use the following method exclusively to select all members of 2011 World Shoot National teams:

1. This policy shall be effective February 1, 2009.
   
2. This policy shall be applied to USPSA sponsored National Handgun Teams and shall apply to all divisions and/or categories.
   
3. Nothing in this policy guarantees that USPSA shall name, field, or sponsor any specific National Handgun Team for any specific IPSC or other event.
   
4. National Handgun Team members shall be selected either through accumulation of qualification points or the wildcard “Captain’s Pick”
   
5. Points shall be the percentage of match placement in that division in any eligible event. By way of example, if a member shoots 100.000%, that member will be deemed to have 100 points. If a member shoots 87.098%, that member will be deemed to have 87.098 points. If a member places first in category with 80.098 %, that member will have 80.098 points.
   
6. Division and/or category points may only be earned in the division and/or category shot at eligible matches. (Example: Production division points are only earned from shooting Production division at an eligible USPSA Handgun National or USPSA BOD approved qualification match).
   
7. Division team selection will use results shot only in that division. Standard team selection will use only Limited or Standard division results. Open team selections will use only Open division results. Production team selection will use only Production division results. Revolver team selections will use only Revolver division results.
   
8. Category team selection will use only Open division results.
   1. 
      
   2. For the purposes of this selection policy, “Junior” Category is intended to comply with the IPSC definition. Currently, this is defined as “Competitors who are under the age of 21 on the first day of the 2011 IPSC World Shoot”.
      
   3. In order to minimize any possibility of inadvertent database oversight, competitors in contention for any potential Category team are solely responsible to identify themselves to the Executive Director prior to the start of the 2010 Open Nationals match. Failure of the competitor to identify himself/herself as such may result in being excluded from team selection.
      

[*]Points shall be earned in the following manner:

1. The points from the better of the 2009 or 2010 National Handgun Championships which shall be multiplied by 2.000, plus
   
2. The total points of the best two (of three) BOD approved qualification matches in 2010.
   

[*]A member may shoot as many qualification matches as they desire but only the best eligible National Championship shall count along with the two highest BOD approved qualification matches.

[*]Under this policy, in order to earn all available points, members must shoot a minimum of three matches (one National Championship and two BOD approved qualification matches) but nothing in this policy shall limit the minimum or maximum number of matches which a member elects to shoot.

[*]The term "BOD approved qualification match" shall be defined as follows:

1. Three separate matches in 2010 designated by the BOD as “approved qualification match”.
   
2. Approved qualification matches will be designated by choosing existing Area Championships and will be on the USPSA website under the Major Match heading prior to 1-1-10.
   

[*]2011 World Shoot team slots will be offered to members in the following order:

1. The three highest ranked competitors based on qualification points. Selection will continue in descending qualification order until three team positions have been formally accepted.
   
2. The fourth member of the team will be a “Captain’ Pick”, subject to review of the Team Manager
   
3. If the “Captain’s pick” seems based upon favoritism or sponsorship ties (I.E. the Team Captain picks a shooter who has historically not performed as well as others, but shares a common sponsor), the Team Manager has the authority to overrule the decision
   
4. The Captain’s Pick must be turned into the Team Manager no later than 11-30-2010, and the official teams will be announced on 1-1-2011
   
5. Any ties in qualification point positions affecting Items 13a or 13c will be broken, if necessary, using the results of qualification match(es) in which the tied competitors each finished the match(es) with a positive score. The results of the most recent such match will be used. If necessary, results from the next most recent such match(es) will be used until the tie(s) is/are sufficiently resolved.
   
6. Should any team position become vacant at a point in time where the application of the provisions of Section 13 and 14 is no longer functional or feasible, the appointed U.S. Team Manager shall have the authority to name a suitable, available, and willing competitor to fill that position.
   

Following the 2011 World Shoot, the Board of Directors shall reexamine this policy for potential use for the following World Shoot. The BOD may, at its discretion, continue, amend, or redefine this policy as it sees fit.

[Chuck Anderson]

Anyone point out where I'm supposed to find said agenda, so that I can offer feedback? (and so that I can see how the previous agenda was written)

It was on the member page posted for quite a while. I think it was one of the top couple items. It was taken down after the meeting took place.

So, just right on this page: http://www.uspsa.org/members/ - it doesn't pop up buried under somewhere else? At least I'll know that I need to go check that page every week or so...

Yep, that's the page. I think (as Charles posted before) it was up for 30 days.

[jasmap]

I have not heard a single person say "I would rather have a sub-optimal team and an objective process than a better team lacking such process". While I would not necessarily agree with that position, I would support if it if there were indications a majority of the membership felt that way.

I would rather have a sub-optimal team and an objective process than a better team lacking such process. There you go.

I also would rather have a "sub-optimal" team and an objective process than a better team lacking such process.

What do you consider "sub-optimal" Rob?

[LChico]

And as far as the BIG names in the sport (that would probable be picked), of all the above matches only 1 finished in the top 5 at ONE match in Limited, maybe they shot a different division.

I think Phil Strader would be considered one of the "BIG names" and he finished in the top 5 in the 2 Area Matches he shot in Limited, done well at Nats too.

I hope the DNROI does better with the stats than you have. (I think you were talking about TJ)

Matt Cheely might not be a big name on the TV channel, but he carries some weight around here. Look what he has done. He's earned a spot on a WS team, but does JA know who he is? Will he come to mind when considering a WS team? I certainly hope so, but that is what this whole discussion is about anyway right?

Maybe JA will announce his intentions for WS team selections in the near future and everything will be ok. I am trying to have a little faith that things will work out for the best.

This is NOT about John Amidon. He was my assigned mentor when I completed the on-line CRO certification. He & I worked together for over 6 months during the set-up for the 2007 Michigan Qualifier match. While I think he is fair and qualified, it does not change the fact that overwhelmingly the USPSA members who have weighed in on this subject do not want ANY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL to choose the teams.

I hope you realize that sometimes stats are not enough information: Phil Strader announced that he did not plan to attend the World Shoot in Bali prior to the first Qualifier match in April of 2007. My understanding is that Todd Jarrett, David Sevigny & Rob Leatham also indicated that they would not go to Bali.

Simply picking a name off the top of the list at a major match gives you no clue if the shooter is willing and able to travel to an international match. Shooting the series of Qualifier matches certainly indicated who was serious about trying to be on the team. Early on, Shannon Smith made several great posts about the desire to compete and represent USPSA. And, to quote Flexmoney:

The people that WANT it bring gun, gear, dedication and mindset to complete the task. Those are our best representative. They have the eye of the tiger.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

Edited January 22, 2009 by LChico

[JThompson]

I made some slight changes to previous selection process used (which are highlighted). To me, this would be an almost perfect way of selecting the teams.

USPSA shall use the following method exclusively to select all members of 2011 World Shoot National teams:

1. This policy shall be effective February 1, 2009.
   
2. This policy shall be applied to USPSA sponsored National Handgun Teams and shall apply to all divisions and/or categories.
   
3. Nothing in this policy guarantees that USPSA shall name, field, or sponsor any specific National Handgun Team for any specific IPSC or other event.
   
4. National Handgun Team members shall be selected either through accumulation of qualification points or the wildcard “Captain’s Pick”
   
5. Points shall be the percentage of match placement in that division in any eligible event. By way of example, if a member shoots 100.000%, that member will be deemed to have 100 points. If a member shoots 87.098%, that member will be deemed to have 87.098 points. If a member places first in category with 80.098 %, that member will have 80.098 points.
   
6. Division and/or category points may only be earned in the division and/or category shot at eligible matches. (Example: Production division points are only earned from shooting Production division at an eligible USPSA Handgun National or USPSA BOD approved qualification match).
   
7. Division team selection will use results shot only in that division. Standard team selection will use only Limited or Standard division results. Open team selections will use only Open division results. Production team selection will use only Production division results. Revolver team selections will use only Revolver division results.
   
8. Category team selection will use only Open division results.
   1. 
      
   2. For the purposes of this selection policy, “Junior” Category is intended to comply with the IPSC definition. Currently, this is defined as “Competitors who are under the age of 21 on the first day of the 2011 IPSC World Shoot”.
      
   3. In order to minimize any possibility of inadvertent database oversight, competitors in contention for any potential Category team are solely responsible to identify themselves to the Executive Director prior to the start of the 2010 Open Nationals match. Failure of the competitor to identify himself/herself as such may result in being excluded from team selection.
      

[*]Points shall be earned in the following manner:

1. The points from the better of the 2009 or 2010 National Handgun Championships which shall be multiplied by 2.000, plus
   
2. The total points of the best two (of three) BOD approved qualification matches in 2010.
   

[*]A member may shoot as many qualification matches as they desire but only the best eligible National Championship shall count along with the two highest BOD approved qualification matches.

[*]Under this policy, in order to earn all available points, members must shoot a minimum of three matches (one National Championship and two BOD approved qualification matches) but nothing in this policy shall limit the minimum or maximum number of matches which a member elects to shoot.

[*]The term "BOD approved qualification match" shall be defined as follows:

1. Three separate matches in 2010 designated by the BOD as “approved qualification match”.
   
2. Approved qualification matches will be designated by choosing existing Area Championships and will be on the USPSA website under the Major Match heading prior to 1-1-10.
   

[*]2011 World Shoot team slots will be offered to members in the following order:

1. The three highest ranked competitors based on qualification points. Selection will continue in descending qualification order until three team positions have been formally accepted.
   
2. The fourth member of the team will be a “Captain’ Pick”, subject to review of the Team Manager
   
3. If the “Captain’s pick” seems based upon favoritism or sponsorship ties (I.E. the Team Captain picks a shooter who has historically not performed as well as others, but shares a common sponsor), the Team Manager has the authority to overrule the decision
   
4. The Captain’s Pick must be turned into the Team Manager no later than 11-30-2010, and the official teams will be announced on 1-1-2011
   
5. Any ties in qualification point positions affecting Items 13a or 13c will be broken, if necessary, using the results of qualification match(es) in which the tied competitors each finished the match(es) with a positive score. The results of the most recent such match will be used. If necessary, results from the next most recent such match(es) will be used until the tie(s) is/are sufficiently resolved.
   
6. Should any team position become vacant at a point in time where the application of the provisions of Section 13 and 14 is no longer functional or feasible, the appointed U.S. Team Manager shall have the authority to name a suitable, available, and willing competitor to fill that position.
   

Following the 2011 World Shoot, the Board of Directors shall reexamine this policy for potential use for the following World Shoot. The BOD may, at its discretion, continue, amend, or redefine this policy as it sees fit.

Damn BJ that looks well thought out... I'm not usre I get a couple of points, but I like seeing it all open like that. Where did you get 9.1? I lost ya there...

Edited January 22, 2009 by JThompson

[dcbfluff]

I'm relatively new to USPSA, but have been steadily impressed by everyone I've met. As a new competitor, I was coached and encouraged by the folks at my local club. At my first major matches I was taken by the professionalism and integrity of the match staff. In the last six months I have attended outstanding NROI instruction from George Jones, an extremely beneficial Local Leaders Workshop hosted by Dave Thomas, and met and worked with other key USPSA leaders (including John A. and Michael V.) while supporting the SHOT Show in Orlando last week. I have been part of a number of organizations (volunteer, military, voluntary military, etc), and am as proud of my association with USPSA as I am of any other. I have tremendous respect for all of the Area Directors and USPSA leadership involved in this discussion, but like most of the other folks responding, am a bit disappointed with this recent decision.

Good intentions aside (and I don't have any doubt or question about intentions), I am struck by the irony of the decision to have one person (no matter how qualified) select the team to represent the UNITED STATES Practical Shooting Association at the next World Shoot. Somehow, that just doesn't seem like the way the American Team should be put together. I know I am not likely to ever win a slot to the World Shoot (I’m still trying to win C Class at local matches), but believe that by setting out objective criteria (as was done for the 2008 WS team selection) we honor the American ideal that if you have some talent and work hard enough you can achieve anything. Our USPSA Team at the next WS is representing not just individual shooting skill, they are representing America. Their selection process can reflect fairness, competition, hard work and acheivement or it can reflect unilateral decisionmaking: I know which aspect of America (and USPSA) I would like to convey to the world.

[Chuck Anderson]

9.1 is straight out of the last qual process. Nationals score is worth double any of the qual matches.

[Chuck Anderson]

As far as the equipment rules, I would whole heartedly go for it. As far as course and match format, I hate it. The 3 short, 2 medium,1 long course format is not what I want to shoot. I dont mind shootiing short courses, but I like to shoot alot when I pay 100+dollars for a match. I like the targets, and the equipment is fine. I would even go for standard insstead of limited even with all the money I have in 140mm 40cal mags.

So equipment and rules is ok, but the courses need to stay uspsa.

But if those are the types of courses the team will shoot at the match they're being picked for, doesn't it make sense to use them to qualify for the team? I know a lot of people that can shoot very well on short speed courses and lots that can shoot well on long field courses. There are less people that can shoot both well.