makomachine Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Folks, I viewed the near final product last night. It is more than a simple NROI ruling. It is trying to establish some things many of you have been asking for, a "mission statement" so to speak.We didn't get into this box overnight, and it will take an amount of time to get out of it, hopefully. It will still have to be posted and voted on, so just hold on. We want this off the table as much as you do. Gary Thanks Gary. I'm not trying to be pushy - just thought we'd have some input today based on where you thoughts were previously. Given this, sounds like things are close. I'm just trying to figure out if I need to not worry as much about reload practice for this coming Saturday's match. If youre a new uspsa shooter, the last thing you should be worrying about is this thread. You be 1000x better if you were dry firing instead. I'm not worried at all. Just want to know what I should put down for the Division I'm shooting when I show up as I'm using an XDm with trigger work. Right now it would be Limited based on the interpretation as it stands today... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 The interpretation has never been posted. It is not official. Continue doing what you were before. If and when NROI actually posts it, that's when things will change (or not). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike cyrwus Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Folks, I viewed the near final product last night. It is more than a simple NROI ruling. It is trying to establish some things many of you have been asking for, a "mission statement" so to speak.We didn't get into this box overnight, and it will take an amount of time to get out of it, hopefully. It will still have to be posted and voted on, so just hold on. We want this off the table as much as you do. Gary Thanks Gary. I'm not trying to be pushy - just thought we'd have some input today based on where you thoughts were previously. Given this, sounds like things are close. I'm just trying to figure out if I need to not worry as much about reload practice for this coming Saturday's match. If youre a new uspsa shooter, the last thing you should be worrying about is this thread. You be 1000x better if you were dry firing instead. I'm not worried at all. Just want to know what I should put down for the Division I'm shooting when I show up as I'm using an XDm with trigger work. Right now it would be Limited based on the interpretation as it stands today... If youre planning on the okcgc match; I just found out that they will not have the usual armed division compliance officers , so just go shoot production. about 90% of those guys have some internal work on their production guns. I should know. I wish I was going, Id like to feel up your XDm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I think Chuck summed it up pretty well. Nothing has changed, and who knows might not, so don't worry about something that isn't broken yet. Of course if you are really, really worried you could come on over to single stack with Z Hunter and I. The water is warm:) Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 And the steaks are grilled to perfection and the beer is served ice cold ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makomachine Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 If youre planning on the okcgc match; I just found out that they will not have the usual armed division compliance officers , so just go shoot production. about 90% of those guys have some internal work on their production guns. I should know.I wish I was going, Id like to feel up your XDm. Well, that's what I'll probably do but don't want ANY of you guys calling me a cheater! Besides, if I was cheating my score would be somewhere above the bottom of the pack! I'm a new member at the OKCGC so I'm sure you'll catch me in the future. Just look for the guy missing the targets with the XDm - can't miss me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeInNePa Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 It might look like a G20 and you might think there is a .40S&W chambered barrel in it, but how do you prove it? What do you use and how do you prove it? Easy, drop a 10mm ammunition in the barrel. What OAL length, what bullet shape, what case length. Why 10mm? The gun isn't marked G20. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 It might look like a G20 and you might think there is a .40S&W chambered barrel in it, but how do you prove it? What do you use and how do you prove it? Easy, drop a 10mm ammunition in the barrel. What OAL length, what bullet shape, what case length. Why 10mm? The gun isn't marked G20. I'll bet the mags are...... Unless you have a source for unmarked mags.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Its gonne be a G20 or a G21, neither of which are .40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 It might look like a G20 and you might think there is a .40S&W chambered barrel in it, but how do you prove it? What do you use and how do you prove it? Easy, drop a 10mm ammunition in the barrel. What OAL length, what bullet shape, what case length. Why 10mm? The gun isn't marked G20. Don't know about you but I have a pretty easy time telling a Large frame Glock from a Small frame. If .40 is flinging out of a Large Frame, I'm gonna have questions. Although I'm not sure where I'm getting a 10mm round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 What OAL length, what bullet shape, what case length.Why 10mm? The gun isn't marked G20. Why not? I can drop in a .40 if you want. Either way, you'll be able to tell what the barrel is chambered for. And if you have mags full of .40 on your belt and it's a G20 size frame... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 hesitating to re-light fires that have cooled to embers, but... No matter what our various opinions might be on what the rules "mean", there's a pretty big difference between "it is allowed within the rules" and "I know it is against the rules, but you probably can't catch me" There's sort of a whole question of "sportsmanship" that gets raised somewhere in there. I'm just sayin'.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makomachine Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 hesitating to re-light fires that have cooled to embers, but... Embers have cooled? I must not be using the right brand of lighter fluid then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sslav Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 "I know it is against the rules, but you probably can't catch me" We should not make rules that can not be effectively enforced. It is all fine and well to rely upon the good will of our fellow man and the forbearance of reptiles. But in the real world it means handing an unfair advantage to those that are less than scrupulous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Maybe it's just me, but... in playing a "sport" that has rules, I always figured it was the player's responsibility to ensure he/she is playing by the rules. the concept that it is someone else's job to try to "catch the rule-breaking", and "if it doesn't get caught, it is okay" is, well, pretty foreign to my way of thinking, let alone our general concept of "personal responsibility". And, beyond that, doing something that one *knows* is against the rules, based on the premise that it "probably won't get caught" is ... well... http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cheating I'm not calling anyone out. I'm just expressing a belief that the game has rules, and it is up to us - each of us - to play within them. I think, at a very basic level, that's the essence of "sportsmanship". But maybe that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sslav Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 I'm not calling anyone out. I'm just expressing a belief that the game has rules, and it is up to us - each of us - to play within them. I think, at a very basic level, that's the essence of "sportsmanship".But maybe that's just me. I think it is naive to believe that everyone is going to play nice-nice. If the rules are not easily enforceable, then those who choose to cheat, get a free pass. I think we have had enough scandals in sporting news over the last few years that clearly demonstrate that people will cheat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 I'm not calling anyone out. I'm just expressing a belief that the game has rules, and it is up to us - each of us - to play within them. I think, at a very basic level, that's the essence of "sportsmanship".But maybe that's just me. By that line of thought we would not need police because all good citizens will obey the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMD Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 I'm not calling anyone out. I'm just expressing a belief that the game has rules, and it is up to us - each of us - to play within them. I think, at a very basic level, that's the essence of "sportsmanship".But maybe that's just me. By that line of thought we would not need police because all good citizens will obey the law. Too true. But, one does have control over their own actions. Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makomachine Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 (edited) {Puts on Devil's Advocate Hat} If a rule exists but the majority of competitors choose to ignore it, is it really cheating? As long as everyone is doing it, sportsmanship is not compromised it would seem. {Removes Devil's Advocate Hat} Edited February 5, 2009 by makomachine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Maybe it's just me, but... in playing a "sport" that has rules, I always figured it was the player's responsibility to ensure he/she is playing by the rules. the concept that it is someone else's job to try to "catch the rule-breaking", and "if it doesn't get caught, it is okay" is, well, pretty foreign to my way of thinking, let alone our general concept of "personal responsibility". And, beyond that, doing something that one *knows* is against the rules, based on the premise that it "probably won't get caught" is ... well... http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cheating I'm not calling anyone out. I'm just expressing a belief that the game has rules, and it is up to us - each of us - to play within them. I think, at a very basic level, that's the essence of "sportsmanship". But maybe that's just me. Bruce. I absolutely agree with the self-policing aspect of this. It's "not just you". BUT (there's always a but, right?), we as an organization are not embracing that ideal too strenuously, as evidenced by chronograph stations at matches, magazine gauges at chrono stations, equipments checks, etc. We even task an individual other than the shooter him/herself to score the targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 {Puts on Devil's Advocate Hat}If a rule exists but the majority of competitors choose to ignore it, is it really cheating? As long as everyone is doing it, sportsmanship is not compromised it would seem. {Removes Devil's Advocate Hat} If there is a speed limit and everyone chooses speeding is it really illegal. Well of course it is. If everyone knows it's cheating then of course sportsmanship is compromised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makomachine Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 {Puts on Devil's Advocate Hat}If a rule exists but the majority of competitors choose to ignore it, is it really cheating? As long as everyone is doing it, sportsmanship is not compromised it would seem. {Removes Devil's Advocate Hat} If there is a speed limit and everyone chooses speeding is it really illegal. Well of course it is. If everyone knows it's cheating then of course sportsmanship is compromised. I guess I have a different interpretation with the 'devil's advocate hat' on. We aren't talking civil/criminal laws here - it's game rules which is a big difference. If a majority of the competition are playing a game a certain way and the rules don't line up with that majority - the rules are broke, not the sportsman who make up the majority of participants. Per Meriam-Webster: Main Entry: sports·man·ship : conduct (as fairness, respect for one's opponent, and graciousness in winning or losing) becoming to one participating in a sport When the majority of opponents are playing contrary to rules - that's not poor sportsmanship, as you are on a level playing field with your fellow opponents. With that said, I'm only playing devil's advocate here and believe that everyone has an obligation to insure they comply with the rules. With that said, maybe we have people playing a different game than what's outlined in the rules today as it relates to Production Division and trigger work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 I'm not calling anyone out. I'm just expressing a belief that the game has rules, and it is up to us - each of us - to play within them. I think, at a very basic level, that's the essence of "sportsmanship".But maybe that's just me. I think it is naive to believe that everyone is going to play nice-nice. If the rules are not easily enforceable, then those who choose to cheat, get a free pass. I think we have had enough scandals in sporting news over the last few years that clearly demonstrate that people will cheat. It may not be a matter of "playing nice" or "playing within the rules". If USPSA develops rules which are either difficult to interpret (I think I am playing by the rules) or difficult/impossible to enforce, then any competitor may find it themselves in violation of a rule even though they had acted in good faith while trying to push their performance envelope. On that note we want everyone to police themselves while trying to reach the top, in a sport that rewards and encourages pushing limits for the sake of performance these two objectives often collide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 The latest turn in this thread does not bode well for those wishing for an unambiguous and easily enforceable rule that does not make illegal what most thought was legal. We need this ruling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 If USPSA develops rules which are either difficult to interpret (I think I am playing by the rules) or difficult/impossible to enforce, then any competitor may find it themselves in violation of a rule even though they had acted in good faith Totally agree. And, believe me, USPSA is working to improve the rules to make them clearer. What I was responding to, though, was the notion of "oh, go ahead and do it. they can't catch you anyway." That's a different thing to me. Put it in a different context. Let's say I can rob a bank, in a way in which I can be pretty sure I won't get caught. Does the fact that "I probably won't get caught" somehow make it "an okay thing to do"? For me, as a competitor (who competed at the highest level in another sport), the rules of competition delineate the boundaries of fair play. It is my job as a competitor to stay within them and, by doing so, play fairly. If I deliberately cross those lines, I'm making a *moral* decision, perhaps using "competitive advantage" to justify it, but unquestionably no-longer "playing by the rules". When the majority of opponents are playing contrary to rules - that's not poor sportsmanship, as you are on a level playing field with your fellow opponents Nope. That's mob mentality. "hey, everyone else is is doing it" doesn't make it "the right thing to do", either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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