Illegal Production Trigger Mods

[bgary]

The latest turn in this thread does not bode well for those wishing for an unambiguous and easily enforceable rule that does not make illegal what most thought was legal.

Yeah, well... from my perspective, the latest turn in this thread does not bode well for the sport, because it reflects [potentially] a willingness for competitors to ignore the rules they don't like, no matter what they say.

Kinda makes me wonder why we should bother having rules at all.

[makomachine]

When the majority of opponents are playing contrary to rules - that's not poor sportsmanship, as you are on a level playing field with your fellow opponents

Nope. That's mob mentality. "hey, everyone else is is doing it" doesn't make it "the right thing to do", either.

So how do you get around mob mentality? Seems to center around enforcement of the rules, does it not? One thing is for certain - it sure isn't fun to be the only one following the rules when you take a game seriously. (Fortunately I'm in it for the fun...)

And don't anyone worry, I'm going to classify myself this coming weekend in the Division that the current set of rules says I should be in - regardless of what EVERYONE else shooting that division does locally. This is a hobby for me and I'm a new USPSA shooter just trying to avoid the "Mike's" at this point.

I look forward to the clarifications when they come out - hopefully they are a positive step towards a growing membership in the division and not a further frustration for the existing participants.

[bgary]

So how do you get around mob mentality? Seems to center around enforcement of the rules, does it not?

Since you played devil's advocate earlier, perhaps you'll forgive me doing the same.

Let's say you're totally playing by the rules. Let's say you're aware of someone else who isn't. And lets say there are no "judges" or "referees" or "match officials" around to "catch it".

At some very basic level, you have two choices - you can choose to play the game according to the rules as they are written, no matter what anyone else might be doing. Or you can choose to ignore the rules, and play according to how the other guy has decided to play.

Isn't that *your* choice? I mean, isn't it uniquely, specifically, personally up to *you* to decide what *your* actions will be, no matter what anyone else decides to do?

I really hate to drag this thread so thoroughly sideways. But I feel like *someone* has to call bullsh_t on the idea of "if they can't catch me, it is okay to do." At the end of the day, it isn't about getting caught, it is about a choice. To do the right thing... or not.

One of my childhood heroes (Paul Elvstrom, 4-time Olympic gold-medal winner in sailing) was once quoted as saying "if, in winning a race, you have lost the respect of your competitors, you have won nothing". I still believe that is a true statement for *myself* ("my personal choice"), no matter what the other guy may choose to do. I'd [personally] much rather lose with honor, than win by ...some other, less-than-honorable means.

[makomachine]

So how do you get around mob mentality? Seems to center around enforcement of the rules, does it not?

Since you played devil's advocate earlier, perhaps you'll forgive me doing the same.

Let's say you're totally playing by the rules. Let's say you're aware of someone else who isn't. And lets say there are no "judges" or "referees" or "match officials" around to "catch it".

At some very basic level, you have two choices - you can choose to play the game according to the rules as they are written, no matter what anyone else might be doing. Or you can choose to ignore the rules, and play according to how the other guy has decided to play.

Isn't that *your* choice? I mean, isn't it uniquely, specifically, personally up to *you* to decide what *your* actions will be, no matter what anyone else decides to do?

I really hate to drag this thread so thoroughly sideways. But I feel like *someone* has to call bullsh_t on the idea of "if they can't catch me, it is okay to do." At the end of the day, it isn't about getting caught, it is about a choice. To do the right thing... or not.

One of my childhood heroes (Paul Elvstrom, 4-time Olympic gold-medal winner in sailing) was once quoted as saying "if, in winning a race, you have lost the respect of your competitors, you have won nothing". I still believe that is a true statement for *myself* ("my personal choice"), no matter what the other guy may choose to do. I'd [personally] much rather lose with honor, than win by ...some other, less-than-honorable means.

Good counterpoint and completely respect that point of view. Just to be clear - as I've said previously - I don't condone the ""if they can't catch me, it is okay to do" approach.

If you look back, this thread got 'active' because I went out of my way to try and understand the rules so I would be in compliance. That was NECESSARY due to official publications by the USPSA, sent to said new member in my 'welcome' package, being in contradiction with the rules - which were not 'clear' regarding the issue of trigger work. On top of this, I had personally been involved with members of the division who thought it was perfectly legal to have trigger work performed in the Production Division. If I had any intention of cheating, which apparently a large population of Production members are doing inadvertently, I wouldn't have gone through the trouble of all of this. Just want to be clear, considering where this seems to be pointing - as that quote seems to keep getting directed toward my posts.

My obviously poor attempt with the devil's advocate post was to drive dialogue regarding the importance of clarity in the rules and the fact that they need to be enforceable - as enforcement of the rules drives compliance and a clear understanding of how the game is played on a match by match basis. If there isn't a mechanism for enforcement or clarity in the rules - you end up where you are today - with the rules not having any real bearing on how a local match is conducted.

My apologies if I've derailed the thread - wasn't my intention and I'll refrain from posting anything that could be misconstrued going forward.

CHEATING BAD

CLEAR RULES GOOD

[00bullitt]

If there was no Law Enforcement to enforce the rules.......would people still abide by the law. Without enforcement......is there still consequence?

[sslav]

CHEATING BAD

Yes that is a very obvious truth. Here is another - PEOPLE WILL CHEAT. Maybe few maybe not so few - depending on your faith in humanity. If rules that they are breaking are not enforceable then cheaters get off free. Maybe some can be satisfied with the "they only cheat themselves" philosophy. I on the other hand feel that if someone cheats when they are competing against me then they are cheating me. And I want them caught. Sorry I am just not a "turn the other cheek" kinda guy.

[Gary Stevens]

There is a third option that Bruce omitted. In our sport you can file a third party arbitration putting the finger on the cheater. However. that leads right back to the original point of how does one know they are cheating. Unless they brag about it, which has been known to happen, the most likely places of cheating are internal. And we cannot write a rule that regulates that without taking additional steps that I do not believe USPSA is prepared or able to do.

I hope we can move this down the road a bit, but I also realize that members of the BOD also have real lives to live and jobs to take care of.

Gary

[Woody Allen]

Civil disobedience. If the BOD rules our guns are illegal-we ignore the rules forcing tedious inspections, mass DQ's, forcing the BOD to see the error of their ways.

Mass revolt I say!!

Throw the tea over the side!

We will have a whole squad of XD shooters mass DQed and take the crono guys hostage (and any available BODs-Bgary will be waterboarded)!

Then the Vanek trigger guys will join the revolt.

Finally the CZ and the M&P squads. Scores of production shooters.

Nationals at a standstill.

We will chain ourselves to the stages.

SWAT set up on the perimeter. We demand a meeting with Voigt.

Jimmy Carter and Bono will show up.

Attica!! Attica!!

[Gary Stevens]

Civil disobedience. If the BOD rules our guns are illegal-we ignore the rules forcing tedious inspections, mass DQ's, forcing the BOD to see the error of their ways.

Mass revolt I say!!

Throw the tea over the side!

We will have a whole squad of XD shooters mass DQed and take the crono guys hostage (and any available BODs-Bgary will be waterboarded)!

Then the Vanek trigger guys will join the revolt.

Finally the CZ and the M&P squads. Scores of production shooters.

Nationals at a standstill.

We will chain ourselves to the stages.

SWAT set up on the perimeter. We demand a meeting with Voigt.

Jimmy Carter and Bono will show up.

Attica!! Attica!!

While we are taking BOD members hostage, let's try to not have any "friendly fire" incidents

Gary

Edited February 6, 2009 by Gary Stevens

[BayouSlide]

Gary, it will be tough to avoid in the midst of all those dangerously lightened triggers

Curtis

Edited February 6, 2009 by BayouSlide

[makomachine]

Civil disobedience. If the BOD rules our guns are illegal-we ignore the rules forcing tedious inspections, mass DQ's, forcing the BOD to see the error of their ways.

Mass revolt I say!!

Throw the tea over the side!

We will have a whole squad of XD shooters mass DQed and take the crono guys hostage (and any available BODs-Bgary will be waterboarded)!

Then the Vanek trigger guys will join the revolt.

Finally the CZ and the M&P squads. Scores of production shooters.

Nationals at a standstill.

We will chain ourselves to the stages.

SWAT set up on the perimeter. We demand a meeting with Voigt.

Jimmy Carter and Bono will show up.

Attica!! Attica!!

While we are taking BOD members hostage, let's try to not have any "friendly fire" incidents

Gary

Hey, I've read the rules. That will get you DQ'd...

[scirocco38s]

I dont shoot production but I do have a CZ Spo1 to shoot it with if I so decide. I purchased it from Angus with the approved trigger work and sights. I have more than enough mags for the division. I dont know 1 thing about a CZ other than to take it down and clean it, so it isnt dissassembled very far.

That being said if someone wants to win so bad that they might or will install illegal parts in the gun to win, If they can live with it then I can live without it. I would rather loose and know I followed the intent of the rule, than win with illegal parts or mods.

This is why I shoot limited and open, I can pretty much do whatever I want in those divisions.

You cannot legislate character.

[TM262]

People will do what people will do and there is no way to stop that. But if someone beats you in a Production match, I doubt very seriously it is because of some internal part in his or her gun.

[sslav]

People will do what people will do and there is no way to stop that.

Of course there is a way to stop it. You can create a set of clear and enforceable rules. If you make a modification illegal it should be quickly and unambiguously detectable with minimal training of the match staff. If you can not reliably detect a violation, it should not be a violation.

But if someone beats you in a Production match, I doubt very seriously it is because of some internal part in his or her gun.

Yeah, I know it is the Indian and not the arrow. Yet somehow an awful lot of Indians seem to put a bit of effort to get better arrows. Which is why we are having this conversation in the first place.

So maybe, just maybe the arrow does play into it a little bit? And if so then we should make sure that all the good little Indians that obey all the rules are not placed at a disadvantage by those few big bad Indians who are going to assume that if a modification can not be detected then it is automatically legal.

As mentioned before we do have chronos and mag gauges. Why bother? Why don't we just assume that you are shooting whatever power factor you are claiming you are shooting and that your mags are up to spec? After all we are all honorable sportsmen, aren't we?

[Jman]

Gun weight, size specs and ammo velocity is easily checked. We should enforce a safety function test at chorno. All Production guns factory safeties must function normally. And that's it. Trigger quality ??? please...

Jim

[RIIID]

The problem with the Production rules happened on day one of its inception. The rules were not clear, support from USPSA was sub par, and it was assumed the shooters would be able figure it out on their own. There seems to be a big assumption that the shooters messed everything up in Production, there's enough blame to go a round USPSA/BOD/NROI also are to blame. This didn't happen over night it happened over 8 years, the intent of what Pro. was supposed to be and what the rules committee wanted the rules to mean was never conveyed clearly.

We have to deal with what we have right now, to me this means that a Pro. gun has to fit into the box, can't weigh over 2 oz. from factory with an empty mag, and retains the factory profile. Internal work is allowed as long as it doesn't effect the exterior of the gun.

Since we have allowed grip stippling and checkering, plugs, exchange of sights, exchange of approved external parts, guide rods, barrels, slides, and I probably have missed something. Those items will have to be allowed, we can't back the train up. Pro. may not be what was intended from the beginning, it has grown into a Div. a lot of people want to compete in. What has happened in the past is the past, the future starts today, Pro. needs to continue the way the shooters have taken it. Hopefully the BOD will realize this and do the right thing.

Rich

[Jman]

Well put Rich. Exactly what we're dealing with.

[00bullitt]

The good thing to come of all of this is that the BOD and USPSA powers that be heard about this through us here on the board and are acting accordingly to rectify the situation as quick as possible. I feel pretty confident the outcome will be favorable to what we want/need. We just gotta sit here and wait for the verdict.

I myself refresh this thread every 15 minutes awaiting the final outcome. Continuing any negative and repititious banter at this point really does no good.

WoodyAllen......I spit milk all over my screen reading your reply.

Edited February 6, 2009 by 00bullitt

[BlackSabbath]

The problem with the Production rules happened on day one of its inception. The rules were not clear, support from USPSA was sub par, and it was assumed the shooters would be able figure it out on their own. There seems to be a big assumption that the shooters messed everything up in Production, there's enough blame to go a round USPSA/BOD/NROI also are to blame. This didn't happen over night it happened over 8 years, the intent of what Pro. was supposed to be and what the rules committee wanted the rules to mean was never conveyed clearly.

We have to deal with what we have right now, to me this means that a Pro. gun has to fit into the box, can't weigh over 2 oz. from factory with an empty mag, and retains the factory profile. Internal work is allowed as long as it doesn't effect the exterior of the gun.

Since we have allowed grip stippling and checkering, plugs, exchange of sights, exchange of approved external parts, guide rods, barrels, slides, and I probably have missed something. Those items will have to be allowed, we can't back the train up. Pro. may not be what was intended from the beginning, it has grown into a Div. a lot of people want to compete in. What has happened in the past is the past, the future starts today, Pro. needs to continue the way the shooters have taken it. Hopefully the BOD will realize this and do the right thing.

Rich

You nailed it. If the rules weren't clear, it wasn't the membership's fault; we didn't write them. And, we shooters shouldn't have to pay for that mistake. IMHO, the BOD needs to remember it's the members of USPSA that matter the most.

[mpeltier]

If their are no minimum trigger weight requirements, and all factory safeties function normally, why all the fuss?

In Production doesn't it really come down to minor scoring, 10+1 in the tube at the start and no more than 10 per mag after the start? No

spring (including connectors) or stop can defeat that. Nice triggers in SAFE guns should be accepted universally. The rest of this is just noise.

Jim

+1

Wow, 27 pages of noise later, over a little bitty internal setscrew..........

[ima45dv8]

It's more than just one little screw at stake.

As for the new ruling, it was indicated here that the BoD met on Monday of this week to discuss it. The NROI list of published rulings includes this note:

Each of these rulings was made available to the board for a 7 day "review and approval period", and publication on this page indicated board approval.

Taking that as gospel, I suspect we won't see anything before Monday of next week. I hope it's sooner (like, Yesterday! ) but I'll try to be patient for a few more days for the 'review & approval' process to run it's course.

[JKSNIPER]

So how do you get around mob mentality? Seems to center around enforcement of the rules, does it not?

Since you played devil's advocate earlier, perhaps you'll forgive me doing the same.

Let's say you're totally playing by the rules. Let's say you're aware of someone else who isn't. And lets say there are no "judges" or "referees" or "match officials" around to "catch it".

At some very basic level, you have two choices - you can choose to play the game according to the rules as they are written, no matter what anyone else might be doing. Or you can choose to ignore the rules, and play according to how the other guy has decided to play.

Isn't that *your* choice? I mean, isn't it uniquely, specifically, personally up to *you* to decide what *your* actions will be, no matter what anyone else decides to do?

I really hate to drag this thread so thoroughly sideways. But I feel like *someone* has to call bullsh_t on the idea of "if they can't catch me, it is okay to do." At the end of the day, it isn't about getting caught, it is about a choice. To do the right thing... or not.

One of my childhood heroes (Paul Elvstrom, 4-time Olympic gold-medal winner in sailing) was once quoted as saying "if, in winning a race, you have lost the respect of your competitors, you have won nothing". I still believe that is a true statement for *myself* ("my personal choice"), no matter what the other guy may choose to do. I'd [personally] much rather lose with honor, than win by ...some other, less-than-honorable means.

BGARY,

KUDOS for your attitude !

Especially the last few lines agree %100.

Lots of discussion on this thread seems to revolve around a couple points:

1. There are competitors using illegal modifications and they do so because they believe they'll never get caught.

2. The rules not allowing these modifications are too difficult or impossible to enforce.

Ref: #1 I can't say with certainty one way or the other.

I hope that most guys are honorable enough that they are not doing such things intentionally.

Ref#2 sorry but I must swim against the prevailing current here...the rules being discussed here ARE enforcable.

Will they catch each and every instance of someone cheating?

Nope.

No more than the cop gets each and every car speeding down the highway.

But with enforcement enough will get caught that hopefully it will discourage the ones that might be tempted to go down that road.

Enforcement would be a bit of a pain and would mean adding/modifying certain rules presently in USPSA or IPSC to allow for random inspections of competitors weapons and also inspection of any competitor's weapon(s) suspected of cheating as well as any who place within the top 5 in any match.

It would mean having volunteers serve in an "Inspector" capacity preferably on an "Inspection Committee" so no one persons opinion will rule the day.

A tough thing at small/local type matches but entirely doable for larger ones.

If this were instituted the people that cheat would realize that they might be able to cheat their way to "winning" but will be stripped of their winning title/prizes as soon as the inspection reveals illegal modifications.

Penalizing the cheating competitor a minimum suspension from USPPSA of say 2 years should discourage any that insist on following the dishonorable road.

Personally an incident of this nature (IMHO) should BAN the competitor for life but I'm a hard ass.

Once a guy realizes that his illegal trigger modification will get caught once he wins or places at a match then hes less likely to use it.

Rules ARE enforcable.

Are they all EASY to enforce....no.

There has to be an effort and plan made to enforce them and to do so equally among competitors.

Will there still be problems/complaints with enforcement along the way?

Absolutely. There will be unforseen problems that will crop up and they will (hopefully) be dealt with in a professional, fair, and impartial manner by the R.O.s at the match.

Perhaps this will lead to further tweaking of the rules so the end result down the road will be rules and enforcement that work pretty well.

Just my .02

JK

[Gary Stevens]

Guys we did meet on it in a conceptual mode. We have agreed on what we want this to say in concept, and we all agree to it in theory.

A small group of BOD members, including myself, are trying to word smith this thing into some shape that the entire BOD can actually make a recorded vote on.

As we continue to work through this, from time to time one thing leads to a discussion of other issues. We are desperately trying to make this a good work product. Chances are it will still not be absolutely perfect, because as we have been told here on the forum, that maybe we just don't understand English However, I am confident that it will be much clearer and cleaner. I am confident that it will go a long way toward telling the member what they can and what they can not do to their PD guns.

I am probably part of the problem on the delay as I brought up an issue that has not totally been resolved as of yet.

All in all, I am jazzed about what we are doing and believe that it will be a good document when we get the rough edges off and a good tune up on it.

As I have said before, nothing has changed from what many of us thought the procedure was. Go on about your business. The sun still rises in the East and still sets in the West. I believe it will continue to do so.

Gary

[makomachine]

Guys we did meet on it in a conceptual mode. We have agreed on what we want this to say in concept, and we all agree to it in theory.

A small group of BOD members, including myself, are trying to word smith this thing into some shape that the entire BOD can actually make a recorded vote on.

As we continue to work through this, from time to time one thing leads to a discussion of other issues. We are desperately trying to make this a good work product. Chances are it will still not be absolutely perfect, because as we have been told here on the forum, that maybe we just don't understand English However, I am confident that it will be much clearer and cleaner. I am confident that it will go a long way toward telling the member what they can and what they can not do to their PD guns.

I am probably part of the problem on the delay as I brought up an issue that has not totally been resolved as of yet.

All in all, I am jazzed about what we are doing and believe that it will be a good document when we get the rough edges off and a good tune up on it.

As I have said before, nothing has changed from what many of us thought the procedure was. Go on about your business. The sun still rises in the East and still sets in the West. I believe it will continue to do so.

Gary

Gary - Very much appreciate the work being done and your continued efforts to keep us updated. I don't want to read too much into your statements but it sure appears to me that the majority of current members are going to be pleased with the new document.

Edited February 6, 2009 by makomachine

[Gary Stevens]

A wise man once said to not count your chickens until they hatch.

With that being said, I am still enthused with the work we are doing and look forward to getting it to the membership soon (whatever soon might mean).

Gary