Defensive Shooting vs. Competitive Shooting

[bdpaz]

A draw is a draw.

A sight picture is a sight picture.

Pulling the trigger is pulling the trigger.

Reloading is reloading.

Moving and shooting is moving and shooting.

All true but watch for actions that are inappropriate for the real world and avoid doing them automatically - after shooting a stage take a fraction of a second to consciously decide that unload and show clear is the appropriate action; the beep of timer isn't the start signal, it is a start signal. Don't lock in to "two shots on paper then move to the next target". Think in terms of responding as appropriate the the situation, and one of those responses in a USPSA match is two shots in the A zone. This will actually help you in competition also as you won't be flustered when a stage has something you're not used to or something doesn't go as planned. As for doing things reflexively, there may be others but the only thing I can think of that should be automatic is finger off the trigger unless engaging a target.

If you're willing to trade off good scores (at least in the short term) for good practice, try routinely shooting different pistols. I have been shooting a revolver with a red dot at steel matches, a single stack, and a limited gun. I really felt awkward at first and it showed in my scores but I'm gradually becoming more comfortable doing whatever it takes to shoot any of them reasonably well on demand.

[Merlin Orr]

that IPSC stuff will get you killed on the street..

I try to stay off of the street. Traffic is dangerous!

[shooter757]

Well, who trains the most elite forces?

Answer: Competitive shooters

Why: Because they shoot the best

[oldtrooper]

When I started in law enforcement 44 years ago, just retired again 01-Oct-08, firearms training consisted of the standing and shooting at a bullseye target. You didn't dare eject empty brass and let it fall where it would. The police matches were standard bullseye matches fired standing with one hand. The PPC matches started as side matches and eventually pushed the bullseye shooting out of the police matches.

The PPC targets and course of fire at least taught shooting from different positions with shorter time limits. In the early 1980's a few of us in MHP had started shooting USPSA and NRA Action Pistol and were in positions in the rank structure to influence firearms training. We still shot PPC in the sanctioned matches but the training other than the state mandated qualifications moved into the area of the USPSA match format.

Law enforcement here still shoots the mandated qualification course twice each year once in full daylight and the other in low light. USPSA will not get you killed on the street. Poor training with no emphasis on movement and use of cover will. The best training is a combination of all of the above done on a regular basis with the addition in recent years of force on force training. We have used this tool for the last few years and nothing nothing teaches the proper use of cover faster than a dark bruise on an exposed body part. Hunting another armed human being who is armed in the same manner and can inflict pain to highlight mistakes is the ultimate lesson. It really gets the old heart pumping and makes one really slice that pie.

[Ron Ankeny]

...but if the game helps my son come home then it is a truly worthwhile game.

I wasn't going to say much on this topic because of forum policy, but I thought I would add a couple of things. Can someone out there please tell me which TV show I watched that featured the US Army shooting a 3-gun match scenario along with the explanation of why the army believes 3-gun competition scenarios can and do relate to real world appliations? As I recall there was a short clip of a regular old stage with normal props, one with full gear and extensive props, and a film of actual urban warfare that the scenario was based upon. I wish I would have recorded the show. It was pretty cool. In short, I guess you aren't the only one that feels the "game" can help your son come home.

From personal experience, I learned how to "qualify" when I was in law enforcement. I learned how to truly run the gun, shoot on the move, reload, shoot from awkward positions, etc., from the shooting sports. I learned "tactics" from reputable "gun fighting" instructors.

I'll end with this, half of the USPSA stages at our last match started by drawing while moving ("getting off the X") as the shooter disappeared behind a wall. I shot the first array while "slicing the pie" as soon as the targets became available while staying away from the wall. There wasn't anyone there to grab the gun if I got close to the wall, and there wasn't anyone shooting at me to make me get off the X. I shot that array that way because it was the most efficient way to play the game and maximize my hit factor. The next two arrays were a wide open hose fest. If we are smart enough to know each stage is different aren't we also smart enough to know the real world is also different? I really resent the inference that I am not bright enough to know the difference between CM99-33 and the gunfight at the OK Corral.

[38supPat]

Like Ron, I wasn't going to comment but decided to say this:

Who cares.

On nearly every shooting forum right now there is this same thread. And all the same lines are being drawn, same arguements, same old stuff.

How about doing something more constructive like sitting down, talking and learning. The comp shooters have lots of skill information to be shared, and the defensive guys have lots of tactics to share. How about we learn from one another rather than deride each other. Stop thinking in Vs., and start looking at the positives of each.

[warpspeed]

I've never looked my shooting from a "defensive" point of view. I certainly do not look at any of the competitions I have shot ( IDPA, USPSA, Steel, skeet, trap, sporting clays ) as developing any other skill than those needed to compete. That being said, I think I'm a better hunter because of them but I consider that to be on the side of offense and not defense.

I pray that I never have to look at using a firearm any other way.

[shred]

http://www.military.com/news/article/marin...-the-price.html

"I was in my own little world," the young corporal said. "I wasn't

even aware of a lot of the rounds impacting near my position, because

I was concentrating so hard on making sure my rounds were on target."

Sounds sorta like he was shooting a stage 'in the zone'.

[oldtrooper]

In my previous post I was attempting to point out that law enforcement has adopted competitive shooting in their training to a great extent. To be a competent defensive shooter one needs to be extremely proficient in handling a firearm, accuracy, and clearing malfunctions. This is all learned well in the competitive arena. The problem is most law enforcement officers are not recreational shooters. They will go to the range every time it is required and no more. That is why the training has changed over the years to bring the competitive shooting style to the training ranges.

The problem now is that the accuracy side in law enforcement is deteriorating since the advent of the high capacity bottom feeders. I recall a young trooper back in the mid eighties that became involved in a gunfight with an escaped felon. We were still issuing revolvers and he used available cover, remembered to use the sights and went home in one piece that day after firing the fifth shot. That was a vital part of the training back then but many now forget that and put their faith in a high volume of fire.

I grew up shooting and like any competitive shooting sport and have done most all of what is available. Those of us in the shooting sports need to support each other and not dwell on the differences.

[Flexmoney]

Those of us in the shooting sports need to support each other and not dwell on the differences.

Very well said.

[revchuck]

How much time do you guys devote to your "defensive" training?

I hardly ever split my training into "defensive" and "competition" because there is so much overlap. Hitting what you're aiming at quickly and repeatedly, shooting while moving, reloading quickly, shooting from awkward positions - these abilities equally serve both purposes. About the only thing I can think of that is solely defensive is shooting from retention...and I've had to do that at IDPA matches. Matches also give you the experience of shooting under pressure, which also bleeds into the defensive arena.

Shooting is the mechanics...mindset is the difference, as has been mentioned above.

[Filishooter]

"Boards don't hit back." - Bruce Lee talking to a Karate guy breaking boards.

Likewise, paper targets don't shoot back. Competition shooting can provide significant skill in handling a gun and speed in movement but things do change when you are being fired upon. For this reason I'm starting up and Airsoft FoF training group made up of both IPSC and IDPA shooters, some Paintball competitors and martial artists. Should be an interesting learning experience. The handgun is just one weapon component. We will also incorporate training knives and emptyhand skill - sometimes going for the gun isn't always the best option.

Edited December 12, 2008 by Filishooter

[taco101]

My son started shooting matches when he was 15. He shot matches every month until he went to boot camp. He shot a match right before his first deployment to Iraq. He is a solid C shooter. I got a call one day and he told me that he couldn't say much, but thanking me for getting him shooting USPSA. I later learned that those skills he learned saved his life and the lives of his partners.

Sure makes ya think.

PS: He is over there again. He shot a match just before he left and shot solid B scores. He told me just how important he thinks USPSA shooting is to living through the two way range.....

[Duane Thomas]

"The two way range." I like that.

[RangerTrace]

I've been in Law Enforcement for around 17 years and have probably been shooting pistols for about 20 years. As a cop, I have always been above average when compared to my peers.

I started shooting USPSA in February '08. Since then, with very little training, other than local matches, my shooting has improved greatly. SWAT guys may not care for our use of cover, "in the open" reloads and such, but its the best practice/training I've ever had.

[STInky]

I've been in Law Enforcement for around 17 years and have probably been shooting pistols for about 20 years. As a cop, I have always been above average when compared to my peers.

I started shooting USPSA in February '08. Since then, with very little training, other than local matches, my shooting has improved greatly. SWAT guys may not care for our use of cover, "in the open" reloads and such, but its the best practice/training I've ever had.

I too have been in L.E. for over 12 years....SWAT for the last seven, team leader for the last two years. I believe that USPSA is a good way to judge your abilities in a stressful situation. Everyone knows what happens when the timer goes off and you don't have your game plan engrained in your mind....the timer sucks your brain out !!! Now imagine lining up with 4 other guys to enter in to an armed bad guys house: when that door opens it's like the timer going off. No, it's not a game...but you have got to react to an ever changing, unpredictible environment and do it without hesitation.

Standing on a flat range, with stationary targets at 3, 7, 15, and 25 yards in no way can prepare you for a real life situation.

[sslav]

I for one do not give defensive shooting much thought. But I have owned a handgun since about 1992. For about 14 years I shot it an average of about twice a year - if that. Then I discovered USPSA. I now shoot at least weekly and dry-fire a lot more than that. There is not a question in my mind whether I was better prepared for self defense before shooting USPSA or after.

[Blueridge]

Competition tests your gun handling skills and your ability to deal with situations under some pressure. Being mentally prepared for self-defense situations is another matter entirely. The more comfortable you are with your gun handling skills, the more that you can focus on the defensive issues that you may face.

Competitive shooting alone will not fully prepare for self defense situations, but the enhancement of your abilities with firearms will help with and aspect. You must mentally and physically train for the other aspects that are important to self defense. Knowing the laws pertaining to the use of force is an important one.

[megathumpzilla]

I like to shoot at things that make me happy when I hit them.

[JKSNIPER]

Those of us in the shooting sports need to support each other and not dwell on the differences.

Very well said.

Good info here and agree with the sentiment above.

Support each other's choice of "game" whether you feel its practical or not.

Also while I 100% agree with using cover and movement and I train that way a LOT I also think the standard NRA type bullseye competition has a lot to be said for it.

I know a few veterans of the "2 way range" whose ONLY preparation consisted of bullseye or highpower type competition and they performed quite well in actual shooting situations.

To hear some talk about the absolute MUST for certain types of training would lead one to believe these guys were body bags waiting to be filled .

In WW1 and 2 the ONLY training many of our Marines got was on bullseye targets and there were some awesome riflemen and shots made back in my Dad's day.

Same for Korea.

IMHO the thing that makes guys survive and perform well is their mindset rather than their training...NOT saying that the training is unimportant. I just think the deciding factor if you want to call it that is an individuals mindset.

I know of one guy that is quite talented in shooting and regularly shot in the upper echelon of the guys at the range but when it came time to go get the bad dude who was shooting he wanted no part of it.

Nothing wrong with being concerned about your own mortality and I don't mean to insinuate hes a coward or no good...just pointing out his mindset was concern for his own safety ( A perfectly normal human response...not too many guys like playing on the 2 way range) rather than getting into the fight and defeating the enemy.

Musashi (Japans greatest swordsman) said to not think of anything in the fight except cutting.

The same for "gun-fu" I guess it would be think of nothing except hitting the target ...not where will I place my feet or how to hold the firearm or where to take cover but those things will come to you if you concentrate on hitting the "enemy".

Maybe I'm not explaining this right or not finding the right words but its not so much a lack of concern for personal safety....not a reckless disregard but sort of a professional detachment...kind of like the first time you respond to a major accident and see your first dead people....you can't freak out...you have a job to do...so you do it by concentrating on the tasks you have to perform and you can decompress later when you're at "choir practice".

Does that make sense?

Anyway a guy I know was only bullseye trained got a bad ass that burgled (of all places ) a gun shop. The bad guy was having himself a good old time shooting up the responding officer's vehicles and this cop just cocked his revolver and waited for the guy to pop up from cover again. Good trigger control and ths, tha, tha, thats all f,f,f,folks.

Train in bullseye if only for the appreciation in accuracy and other benefits...better trigger control, breath control, Natural point of aim, etc.... all that you really don't get full benefit from if you only do the USPSA or IDPA shooting.

JK

[MichiganShootist]

Trigger time is good.

[Jim Norman]

All Shooting is Good Training.

Shoot Bullseye, Accuracy (Pistol OR Rifle, i.e., Highpower or smallbore)

Shoot PPC Accuracy with some time constraints

Shoot USPSA Accuracy under heavy time pressure

Shoot 3-Gun (Multi-Gun) Accuracy, Time and transition confusion

Shoot Trooper Class, Accuracy, Time Constraints, Physical constraints, Exhaustion.

You can't be slow and win. You can't be sloppy and win. You need to be fast and accurate. How fast. As fast as the situation demands. One shot at 400 yards isn't the same kind of fast as 12 shots at 3 yards. How accurate? Misses make for scared opposition, but they area still opposition, so accuracy is always a factor. Misses don't win, hits win. You can't miss fast enough to win.

As in all things it is a balance. Shoot as fast as you can hit. hit as fast as you can shoot.

And know when to run.

Remember, the number one rule of self-defense is staying out of situations that require it.

Jim Norman

[Holshot]

Most of the guys that complain about the sports (key word) not being tactically sound are usually losing and looking to bring down those around them instead of bringing themselves up. You see that everywhere of course and blanket statements like that are bad as they are not always correct. So I do apologize to anyone who wins and complains about it.

Fact of the matter is this. It takes a very long time with tens or hundreds of thousands of rounds down range to become competitive at this sport, ie a good shooter. Once you can shoot, learning tactics can be done in very little comparative time.

I have the unbelievable fortune of having a world class shooter as a coach. The above statment is his. He learned this from teaching military "teams", citizens, etc.

Shooting is the hard part. I personally train both to answer your original question. Remarkably, during low light house clearing drills I never tried to speed reload anyone to death. During force on force drills my hits are good, my movement is good, and my mind is open wide for all the self defense learning I can get.

In the big scheme of things we are all shooters and I will never bash other shooters as they have me, and some of you, because the more people we have pulling the trigger, the better the world will be. It is difficult, however, to stay positive when the sport I love is getting torn apart by someone who knows no better. So shoot IPSC, IDPA, bullseye, clays, trap, high power, or whatever else you can come up with but take some self defense classes too. Then train them all.

Stay safe

[TaxPhd]

The essence of competitive shooting (at least the competitive shooting that we do), is pretty simple. It is the ability to put multiple hits on multiple targets, quickly and accurately, from a variety of positions, and using a sufficiently powerful handgun. Guess what? It's the same for defense shooting. At least the shooting is. Tactics may well be a different story.

Scott

[big_kahuna]

I agree with these guys:

The Role of Competition Shooting in Firearms Training by Ron Avery

Combative Applications of Competitive Techniques, Part I by Mike Seeklander

Combative Applications of Competitive Techniques, Part II by Mike Seeklander