Rules questions

[Chuck Anderson]

Thinking about maybe shooting an IDPA match or two to get classified again and I had a couple questions.

First regarding grips. The rules say something about same type and material, no weighted grips. I shoot a CZ SP-01 which I think is at or above weight for ESP with the factory grips. I normally use Aluminum grips on mine which are smaller in profile and lighter. The gun will make weight with these grips. They are definitely not weighted grips since they are ligther. Are these legal?

Reloads. It says all reloads must start behind cover. Does this only apply to tactical reloads and RWR or slide lock loads as well. I'm just thinking if I run dry in the open, I'm gonna be reloading the whole way to cover

Tactical order. If the following array presents what would be the order. As slicing the pie around the right side of cover three targets will appear, the first at 3 yards, the second at 10 yards and the third at 3 yards. In order to engage T3 you have to expose yourself to T2. My assumption would be 1-3, but I don't want to assume either.

[Joe4d]

There is no such thing as tactical order, it is either sequence or priority. Either way it should be disclosed in the walk trough or briefing. If not ask before you shoot. As there is reall no hard fast shot in Tac sequence shoot in Tac priority. Best bet is to allways ask before you shoot.

Page 23 says for ESP only says "2. Grips (no weighted grips; see “weighted grips” in glossary for further details)."

the similar to factory is in the SSP. You stated you were shooting ESP so the similar to factory doesnt apply. Even if it did the rule simply says no weighted grips of similar configuration which I say yours are. You could allways throw the factory grips in your bag for someone to weigh if there is ever a question.

The reload issue is gonna be COF and SO specific best to just ask ahead of time.

[revchuck]

Grips - you can't go much heavier, but you can go lighter. From the rulebook (Glossary):

Weighted Grips: Any set of grips that weigh more than two (2)

oz. over factory standard weight for the model.

Reloads - All reloads must be behind cover. From the rulebook (pg. 9):

All reloads begin with the shooter’s first action to initiate the

reload (ejection of the magazine, drawing a spare magazine,

etc.) and end when the weapon is fully charged and ready to

fire (magazine fully locked into the weapon and the slide fully

forward or cylinder closed). Reloads can only be initiated

while behind cover.

If you're slicing the pie, you engage targets as you see them regardless of the distance. If you're in the open, targets are engaged near-to-far, with targets less than six feet farther away from each other being counted as the same distance. If it's not obvious, be sure to ask the SO. From the rulebook:

CoF 10. Targets must be engaged in tactical priority unless

tactical sequence is specified. Targets within two (2) yards of

each other relative to the distance from the shooter are

considered to be equal in threat.

[GmanCdp]

Reloads. It says all reloads must start behind cover. Does this only apply to tactical reloads and RWR or slide lock loads as well. I'm just thinking if I run dry in the open, I'm gonna be reloading the whole way to cover

in ESP or SSP using 10rnd mags/if the stage and descripition was setup right,you should not be "out in the open" at all ..most stages are worded now as to warn the shooter to do a RWR/TLR,before leaving a certain position or if not you need to figure it out,so you won't get a PE for starting a reload in the "open".

There is no such thing as tactical order

Tactical order. If the following array presents what would be the order. As slicing the pie around the right side of cover three targets will appear, the first at 3 yards, the second at 10 yards and the third at 3 yards. In order to engage T3 you have to expose yourself to T2. My assumption would be 1-3, but I don't want to assume either

from cover,it would still be T1,T2,T3...there again stage design was to trick the shooter into shooting T3 before T2,to break his cover and earn a PE..if the shooter was indexing correctly around cover , they would see T1,T2 and then T3..

another version i've heard this yr at 2 different matches is the word "barricade cover or barricadr order"..from "barricade cover/order ,engage targets as you see them"...when writing COF's i was taught to use the words "priority" and "sequence" beginning with "tactical"..thats the way its worded in the rulebook,that way if a shooter didn't understand they could at least look it up...

Edited October 4, 2008 by GmanCdp

[Joe D]

Reloads must start and finish from cover. In other words that slide must be forward before you leave cover. A properly designed stage will not allow a shooter to run out of ammo in the open.

[lugnut]

Reloads must start and finish from cover. In other words that slide must be forward before you leave cover. A properly designed stage will not allow a shooter to run out of ammo in the open.

Yeah... and starting the reload may include grabbing a mag from a mag pouch... as me how I know!

[Chuck Anderson]

So it sounds like the grips are probably OK. The sequence thing is resolved. I do still have issues with the reloading. There's an awful lot of mentions of proper stage design "shouldn't" happen. I've shot long enough that I know bad things can happen. If there are 3 pieces of steel that need to be engaged on the move, I've had a bad day where that may take all 10 or 11 rounds. A stage designer should not be faulted because I'm retarded on the trigger. So the question I'd like a firm answer on is, if I go to slide lock in the open, and I grab a new mag or dump the old one before I get to cover is this a penalty. My guess is yes, I just hate games where I have to guess.

[RobMoore]

So the question I'd like a firm answer on is, if I go to slide lock in the open, and I grab a new mag or dump the old one before I get to cover is this a penalty. My guess is yes, I just hate games where I have to guess.

Yes, you cannot initiate a reload when not behind cover. Initiate means your first action, which is to either dump the spent one or grab the second one.

A properly designed stage will not allow a shooter to run out of ammo in the open.

Disagree. I see nothing wrong with it. With enough variety in magazine capacity, a shooter should be on his own to know if he needs to do a tac-load before leaving cover to not get caught in the open with an empty gun.

Edited October 4, 2008 by RobMoore

[revchuck]

No guessing required. If you're in the open and you go to slidelock, you can't begin your reload until you get to cover - period. In the best of all possible worlds, the CoF designer would've taken that into consideration and permitted any remaining steel to be engaged from cover.

[bigbrowndog]

I've got a couple of questions myself, i just shot a local carbine match operating under IDPA rules. my main concern was an interpretation made by the SO??

We had to engage targets from behind a car facsimile, the idea was you needed to be behind cover when engaging the targets. I thought as long as i was covered 50% by the vehicle i could engage targets, the SO said that we needed to "take a knee" the course description did not make that distinction, so I asked if i could squat behind the vehicle, because movement was needed while you were behind the car and moving while kneeling is not nearly as quick as from a squat. I was told that IDPA does not recognize the squat, so I needed to kneel.

My question is when does the stage description not matter and only what the SO interprets is important?

If I ignored the SO's interpretation and shot it the way I felt i should then how do you go about avoiding the FTDR or Procedural?

Trapr

[shred]

I've got a couple of questions myself, i just shot a local carbine match operating under IDPA rules. my main concern was an interpretation made by the SO??

We had to engage targets from behind a car facsimile, the idea was you needed to be behind cover when engaging the targets. I thought as long as i was covered 50% by the vehicle i could engage targets, the SO said that we needed to "take a knee" the course description did not make that distinction, so I asked if i could squat behind the vehicle, because movement was needed while you were behind the car and moving while kneeling is not nearly as quick as from a squat. I was told that IDPA does not recognize the squat, so I needed to kneel.

My question is when does the stage description not matter and only what the SO interprets is important?

If I ignored the SO's interpretation and shot it the way I felt i should then how do you go about avoiding the FTDR or Procedural?

Trapr

I ran into the knee thing once.. I think it's just one of those "it just is" rules like why a touchdown scores 6 points.

[Mayonaise]

My question is when does the stage description not matter and only what the SO interprets is important?

If I ignored the SO's interpretation and shot it the way I felt i should then how do you go about avoiding the FTDR or Procedural?

Trapr

IDPA rules always apply. IDPA rules stipulate that when using low cover one knee must be on the ground. When in doubt ask the question. If the SO gives you the green light to squat, squat. It's still against the rules but if he clears it he shouldn't go back on his word after the fact.

[revchuck]

Most of us old guys are familiar with "rice paddy prone", but many newer shooters aren't.

A squat can be subjective - where's the dividing line between a squat and just kinda bending over? Requiring a knee down ensures that a shooter is properly behind low cover. The downside IMO is that older and/or busted up shooters may have problems geting back up..although this applies equally to a real squat. The workaround is to have this requirement occur at the end of the CoF.

I've already been told that I don't know squat so feel free to disagree.

[bigbrowndog]

Mayo, that rule must be what he was refering to, it just sounded silly???

I had no problem doing the kneel, the not recognizing "squat" is what threw me. i had NEVER heard it put that way, and there was no explanation given, just, you will take a knee.

thanks, trapr

[Joe D]

Rob there is nothing to disagree about. When you design a stage you don't want enough targets, that are shot while moving in the open, to cause the shooter to run out of ammo with a full mag. I have seen stages with 5 targets that were to be shot on the move in the open.

[RobMoore]

and did they offer the ability to shoot them once they reach cover if they didn't have a 10 round gun or moved quick enough?

[revchuck]

Rob there is nothing to disagree about. When you design a stage you don't want enough targets, that are shot while moving in the open, to cause the shooter to run out of ammo with a full mag. I have seen stages with 5 targets that were to be shot on the move in the open.

Joe - That's obviously just flat-out bad stage design. We could start a whole new thread on that one.

Edited October 7, 2008 by revchuck

[Duane Thomas]

Oh, please don't.

[rledwards]

I was told that IDPA does not recognize the squat, so I needed to kneel.

Trapr

If the car was designated as "low cover", then the SO was correct. If it wasn't so designated, then it was just the SO's interpretation. There is no requirement to have one knee on the ground except behind "low cover."

--Lin

[9x21]

No guessing required. If you're in the open and you go to slidelock, you can't begin your reload until you get to cover - period. In the best of all possible worlds, the CoF designer would've taken that into consideration and permitted any remaining steel to be engaged from cover.

So if out in the open, you run dry, you have to retreat to cover?

From page 76, IDPA rule book

Cover: 1) More than 50% of the shooter’s upper torso must be

behind cover while engaging threat targets and/or reloading. For

low cover, one knee must be on the ground and for vertical cover

such as a wall/barricade, 100% of the shooter’s legs and feet must

be behind cover.

All reloads must be executed from cover (if cover is available) and

must be completed before leaving cover. A shooter is deemed

loaded and may move from a position of cover ONLY when the

fresh magazine is FULLY SEATED and the slide is fully forward

or revolver cylinder is closed. Shooters may not move from one

position of cover to another with an empty gun. Reloads must be

completed from cover, however this does not mean that a shooter

must duck back completely behind cover to reload before

reengaging targets from a stationary firing point. The contestant

may keep his eyes on his next “opponent” as long as he follows the

definition of cover and does not expose too much of his body to

the next threat target.

"Serpentine Shelly. Serpentine!"

The In-Laws 1979

Where's Bones?

I'm confused.................

[CDPMatt]

First regarding grips. The rules say something about same type and material, no weighted grips. I shoot a CZ SP-01 which I think is at or above weight for ESP with the factory grips. I normally use Aluminum grips on mine which are smaller in profile and lighter. The gun will make weight with these grips. They are definitely not weighted grips since they are ligther. Are these legal?

Just FYI, the CZ SP-O1 has to make SSP weight to shoot in ESP because it is illegal in ESP due to the full length dust cover. I only mention this because you specifically said ESP weight.

[mike4045]

If a reload must be completed behind cover, that means that it must also be stowed before advancing to the next position? It came up at a match. The ruling there was that it does not have to be stowed before leaving. It must be done before firing the next shot. I thought completed meant stowed also.

Mike

[racerba]

Thinking about maybe shooting an IDPA match or two to get classified again and I had a couple questions.

I didn't think you can get classified just by shooting matches. I though you had to shoot the classifier. Yes - No?

[RobMoore]

Yes, every 12 months you must shoot the classifier, except masters. Appendix 6, Shooter Responsibility #7

[cnote]

I was told that IDPA does not recognize the squat, so I needed to kneel.

Trapr

If the car was designated as "low cover", then the SO was correct. If it wasn't so designated, then it was just the SO's interpretation. There is no requirement to have one knee on the ground except behind "low cover."

--Lin

+1 if you see or hear the words "low cover" = knee on ground